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Hall or no Hall part 2

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11-25-2005, 02:24 PM
  #1
Big Phil
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Hall or no Hall part 2

Okay here's another crop of guys who are always debatable as to whether they shoul or should not be in the Hall of Fame. And please people no homers. Dont say a guy should be in just because "Clark Gilles" is in. Two wrongs dont make a right you know.

Curtis Joseph - He'll have over 400 wins by the time his career is over. No Cups, never played in a Cup final game, and was never a post season all-star. No Vezina Trophies either, although he was arguably right up there for a couple of seasons.

Verdict: To me Joseph is not a Hall of Famer. Yes he's won a lot of games in his career but he was never on a bad team either. I'll admit he was the greatest playoff goalie of all time - in the first round! But after that he choked. He never had that champion edge to him. No awards hurt him a bit too. Plus the only goalie who I can think of that is in the Hall with no Cups is Eddie Giacomin. And he was a Vezina Trophy winner so no argument there. Joseph just didnt do enough for me, I just dont see great when I mention his name.


Rick Martin - Four time all-star ('74, '75) and second team ('76, '77). It may also surprise people that he has a better GPG and PPG than Neely. Played in one Cup final in '75, had a shortened career and was on team Canada '76 and '72 (although he didnt play in '72).

Verdict: Martin was a sniper from the day he was born. And all he ever did was score. Two-time fifty goal scorer three other times 44 or more. He was the gunner on the famed French Connection line. And it may surprise people but he is always on my list when I mention best players not in the Hall. But is he considered great? I think people forget about him because there isnt a lot of outcry about him not being in. He may of had too short of a career. But was he good enough in that time?
I dont know.


Rogie Vachon - Three time Cup winner, twice a second team all-star ('75, '77) very good in the '76 Canada Cup. He played on some pretty bad Kings teams yet still had very impressive stats. Was 2nd in MVP voting in '75. Has 355 wins.

Verdict: I make it no secret that Rogie Vachon is to me considered to be the best player not in the Hall along with Sergei Makarov. He won three Cups and yes in '71 Dryden was in net but still in three straight years he played in the Cup final, losing only in '67. Take away Parent and Dryden and was there a better goalie in the 70s? I know there arent any goalies in the Hall that anyone debates (a standard they have kept pretty good) but Vachon was great IMO.


Vincent Damphousee - One Cup, multiple 90 point seasons but no 100 point seasons. No post season all-star selections, yet he was pretty much a consistent point procuder througout his career.

Verdict: This will be quick. I like Vinnie, but he has never performed anywhere near the same level as even Modano. Damphousse was never considered not once in his career to be one of the top ten players in the league. A good solid career, but he doenst do anything for me that jumps out at me. He played for Canada once in the WOrld Cup in '96 and actually did pretty good despite Richter stoning him repeatedly. No HOFer.


Steve Shutt - Five time Cup winner. Three time post season all-star ('77 '78, '80). Over 100 points once, score 60, 49, 47, 45 goals in his top four seasons. Played in 1976 Canada Cup.

Verdict: I've heard grumblings before about Shutt so I know there are some out there who dont like him. But regardless of the fact that he played with Lafleur he still put up some very good numbers. 60 goals is great no matter who is on your line. Shutt unfortunately never had the oppurtunity to play without Lafleur so we dont know how he would have fared. But he was still a key contributor to Montreal's four straight Cups and he had more than one big season so his prime lasted a few years. You think sniper when you hear his name and that's what he was, he formed a tandem with Lafleur that was basically unstoppable. He also led the league in goals in '77 so he at least led the league in something in his career. Was he ever a top ten player in the game? Yes. And that counts as well. he's a HOFer in my books.

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11-25-2005, 04:02 PM
  #2
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Shutt's already in...

and I'm not sure any of the others deserve it (vachon perhaps), although as a Cujo fan I'd just like to point out that I think his career gets a little underrated at times

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11-25-2005, 05:23 PM
  #3
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CuJo's 400+ career wins will be the new mark for goalies not in the Hall. There are some good points - over 400 wins, two Vezina nominations, setting and breaking the record for most saves in the season, several sterling post-season runs. (Although as Big Phil astutely pointed out, his best play was generally in the first round, until 2004, that is, when his Detroit teammates let him down). If he carries a team to the Stanley Cup, then a lot of his Hall detractors, myself included, will probably change their mind.

I'm a big Damphousse fan, and I say no. I think his HHOF merits are about the same as Modano. Both were highly skilled players who excelled at both ends of the ice. Both were key contributors to Stanley Cup champions. Both had a lot of really, really good seasons, but nothing that stands out and makes you talk about that season 20 years later. Modano was a bit better of a goal scorer, Damphousse was a better leader. But I say no to Modano, so it's a no to Vinny.

There are several differences between Rick Martin and Cam Neely, the first being physical play. If Neely was just a sniper, he wouldn't be in. But Neely had that almost unprecedented combination of physical play and goal scoring ability. Martin also came into the league at age 20 vs. 18 for Neely (an eternity in terms of development). Neely lost the prime years of his career due to injury. And, Neely had almost as many goals in the 1991 playoffs (16) as Martin did in his entire career (24). Neely was a much, much better player. Martin had some great years, but is not an HHOF calibre player. (The linemates issue is moot, as Neely had wizards like Janney and Oates feeding him the puck).

Vachon is considered one of the best goalies not in the Hall, and for good reasons. His careers wins were, for decades, the benchmark for goalies not in the HHOF. Unlike CuJo, he has a Vezina (although from the GAA era of the Vezina) and a Cup (1969 with Montreal in a platoon with Gump Worsley). But I wouldn't vote him in. Outside of wins, there just isn't enough there. (And when it comes to top goalies of the 1970s, I think you have to factor in Tony Esposito, too).

Steve Shutt is very deserving. He had some fantastic playoffs and regular seasons for the Habs. Won four Cups. Was a playoff point producer throughout his career. Did he benefit from Lafleur? Who wouldn't. But he was still an immensely talented goal scorer who would have scored with anyone.


Last edited by God Bless Canada: 11-25-2005 at 07:07 PM.
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11-25-2005, 05:38 PM
  #4
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If HHOF truly was for the best players of the planet, guys like Vladimir Petrov, Boris Mikhailov, Anatoli Firsov, Sergei Makarov, Alexander Maltsev, Vladimir Krutov, Valeri Vasilyev, Sergei Kapustin, Helmut Balderis, Alexei Kasatonov, Zinetula Bilyaletdinov, Vyacheslav Starshinov, Andrei Khomutov, Vyacheslav Bykov and Vladimir Luchenko would be in. These guys used to play against the best of the NHL and those games were always very close with a few exceptions. They also dominated the European hockey for three decades.

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11-25-2005, 05:51 PM
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Since the HHOF includes international play you have to remember Vachon's sterling performance at the 76 Canada Cup. He was named best goalie in the tournament and to the All-Star team. He was flat out sensational. If his NHL accolades get him close, I always thought that performance should have put him over the top.

Joseph is behind Barrasso, Moog, Vernon and Richter IMO. A nice and underrated career and all but not Hall worthy. And Moog's career is far more underrated than Cujos. And of those four Barrasso is the only guy I'd really consider putting in.

Martin is stuck with the reputation that he got all his points off of Perreault; much like so many accuse Glenn Anderson of riding Messier's coattails. The truth is that both were fine hockey players who have so far been unable to shake that accusation.

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11-25-2005, 06:49 PM
  #6
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Curtis Joseph- For some reason a forward can get voted in the Hall even if he never does anything in the playoffs, but it`s next to impossible for a goalie or defenceman to get in without a Cup or at least a couple of long playoff runs. The double standard has always bothered me, but I digress. Joseph will not get in because of that. Should he get in? I say no. He`s not the type who can be counted on to win 16 games in the playoffs on a Cup contender; however if I was coaching a young inexperienced mediocre team and was matched up against an offensive powerhouse in the first round, Joseph would be the guy I`d want in nets in hopes of stealing a game. Though I don`t think he`s quite good enough for the Hall, in terms of peak performance, longevity and consistency I would rate him ahead of John Vanbiesbrouck and Andy Moog whose names come up in these Hall debates now and then. I also think Joseph had a better career than Jim Carey.

Rick Martin: His last full NHL season was when he was only 28. If his knee didn`t blow out and he had a chance to play into his 30s, he would have certainly hit 500 goals, possibly 600, and would`ve been inducted into the Hall his first year of eligibility. However, he did get injured. It boils down to how much credit you give a guy for time missed due to injury. I say you certainly have to give some credit, but you can`t assume that he would`ve scored at that same pace. What actually happened takes priority over what was projected to happen. As a Sabre fan it pains me to say this, but I`d lean towards a no vote here. Having said that though, I would rate Martin ahead of some Hall members (Gartner, Goulet) or possible future members (Andreychuk, Ciccarelli)

Rogie Vachon: It surprised me a few years ago when I started researching the Hall that Vachon wasn`t in it, I always assumed he was. By whatever standard you may want to consider, he either easily passes or comes very close: Playoffs? He won a Cup. Peak value? MVP runner-up in `75, .926 save percentage (the NHL average was .890). Career value? While he admittedly stunk after leaving L.A., his career up to that point was far better than any non-Hall goalie and arguably better than some in the Hall (Giacomin, Cheevers). If there was still any doubt, his performance in the `76 Canada Cup should`ve sealed the deal. He rates alongside Mark Howe as the best players of the post-expansion era to be passed over.

Vincent Damphousse: Phil`s comments on him in post #1 are identical to mine. A better career than most, but nothing to merit Hall consideration.

Steve Shutt: Yes. He may rate towards the bottom of the list of Hall members, but he`s on the list. Consistently excelled in both the regular season and playoffs, always in perfect position, great hands. If it were true that he was only a one-dimensional goalscorer, then Scotty Bowman wouldn`t have had him on his team. Rarely made any costly giveaways or mistakes. Some people will say that anybody could score 60 goals on Lafleur`s line, but Shutt was the only one who actually did.

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11-25-2005, 06:58 PM
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I think voters would look sour on Damphousse after the rumored role he took in the cancellation of the season, followed by retirement

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11-26-2005, 02:05 PM
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I don't think Joseph is a Hall of Famer if he retires right now. But if we imagine he plays another couple years as a number one goalie, he will be so far up the all time wins list that it will be illogical to deny him entry to the hall.

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11-26-2005, 04:43 PM
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I just can't understand why CuJo is even considered as being considered as being considered to be induced in the Hall...

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11-27-2005, 03:12 AM
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If I were on the committee, all of those players would receive a "no" vote from me.

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11-27-2005, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TransportedUpstater
If I were on the committee, all of those players would receive a "no" vote from me.
ditto.

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11-27-2005, 04:53 PM
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V-2 Schneider
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Steve Shutt is one of the greatest LW's(top 6) ever to play the game, and his HHOF credentials are questionable?

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11-29-2005, 01:20 AM
  #13
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Big Phil, you gotta offer up some better names. Shutt is the best of your list and he is a borderline member. The rest are not close.

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11-29-2005, 01:25 AM
  #14
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If Cujo takes the Coyotes deep into the playoffs this year, he should get alot of consideration

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11-29-2005, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg
If Cujo takes the Coyotes deep into the playoffs this year, he should get alot of consideration
I'll take it one step further. If CuJo plays a key role on a Stanley Cup champion, he goes into the Hall. He's that close, but it's the biggest hurdle for him to overcome. His two Vezina nominations (1993 and 1999), saves records (set in 1992 and 1993), his playoff performances in 1993, 1997-1999 (at least the first two rounds in 1999) and 2004, and his wins have put him on the doorstep. But he needs to be a key player on a Cup champion, or at least make it to the final. It won't happen in Phoenix, but if Phoenix falters, at $900,000, he will be a cheap pickup at the deadline for a team like Philly, Detroit or Vancouver, who have all had goaltending problems. He doesn't have a Vezina, but that will be wiped out if he gets that Cup. Without a Cup, or two or three Vezinas, he won't get in.

When it comes to goalies, more than any other position, your playoff record is the big key. Billy Smith won a Vezina and a Jennings, and played more than 50 games once in his career. Why is his place in the Hall questioned by nobody? His pivotal role on four Cup champions and another Cup finalist.

Grant Fuhr won a Vezina and was a back-up on a Jennings winner. (Although he was a Hart finalist in 1988 and should have been a finalist in 1996). He's in the Hall because he was a key player on four Cup champions and was a back-up for a fifth.

Mike Vernon has no Vezinas (but several nominations), but there are two Cups, and a Conn Smythe. He'll get in eventually.

So why doesn't Moog get in, despite three rings? Those came as back-ups. He backstopped teams to the final in 1983 and 1990, but no rings as a No. 1.

Why do so many rate Plante and Roy as the best at their position? Cup rings. Why are Fuhr, Cheevers and Smith in the Hall? Rings.

CuJo could win 500 games and not get in. For a goalie without a ring to make it in the Hall, he needs multiple Vezinas. Right now, CuJo has neither. If he gets a ring, he'll get in.

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11-29-2005, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Big Phil, you gotta offer up some better names. Shutt is the best of your list and he is a borderline member. The rest are not close.

Okay no problem I'll do a third thread. But seriously I really think there are some names on there that should merit consideration. Vachon at least. I dont agree with most of them on that list but I know some peopel do thus starting a good debate.

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11-29-2005, 06:30 PM
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Aside from the cup rings, I really don't see the difference between Rick Martin and guys like Barber and Shutt. Martin had 4 post-season All-star nods, Barber and Shutt had 3 each. Martin had more 50-goal and 40-goal seasons than Barber and Shutt. Martin had substantially better career PPG and GPG marks.

Martin was a HHOF cakewalk until his knees gave out at age 29 ... if he'd stayed healthy another 5 seasons and scored at even an average clip, he'd have finished up with 500-600 goals. I don't see why the couple extra 50-60 point seasons Shutt and Barber had between ages 29-32 are such a difference-maker.

__________

There's no way Joseph will get in with no Vezinas, no Jennings, no Cups or finals appearances, no post-season all-star nods, and not much international success. And at least 4 goaltenders in the 1990s who were clearly better (Belfour, Hasek, Brodeur, Roy, maybe Richter).

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11-29-2005, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS
Aside from the cup rings, I really don't see the difference between Rick Martin and guys like Barber and Shutt. Martin had 4 post-season All-star nods, Barber and Shutt had 3 each. Martin had more 50-goal and 40-goal seasons than Barber and Shutt. Martin had substantially better career PPG and GPG marks.

Martin was a HHOF cakewalk until his knees gave out at age 29 ... if he'd stayed healthy another 5 seasons and scored at even an average clip, he'd have finished up with 500-600 goals. I don't see why the couple extra 50-60 point seasons Shutt and Barber had between ages 29-32 are such a difference-maker.

__________

There's no way Joseph will get in with no Vezinas, no Jennings, no Cups or finals appearances, no post-season all-star nods, and not much international success. And at least 4 goaltenders in the 1990s who were clearly better (Belfour, Hasek, Brodeur, Roy, maybe Richter).

It's not just Cup rings, which are very important, it's playoff production. Shutt and Barber were key guys on Cup champions. Martin not only didn't win a Cup, his production nosedived in the playoffs. (Neely had more playoff goals in 1990 and 1991 than Martin did in 60-plus playoff games).

I'd take CuJo ahead of Richter, but not the other four. The first four are sure-fire, undisputable future HHOF guys. They all have multiple Vezinas, they all were No. 1 goalies on Cup champions. Until Joseph gets one of those (I'll pretty much rule him out for multiple Vezinas at this point in his career, he won't get in. He might get in if he carries a team to the Cup final on his back, as he does have the Vezina nominations, the saves records (since broken) and several impressive playoffs on lesser teams.

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12-02-2005, 02:51 AM
  #19
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Cujo's 400+ wins will get him in whether people like it or not. I think its almost a guarantee. 300 wins is a number that can be argued for or against. But not 400. 400 wins for goalies is about the same as 600 goals for a skater. It almost assuredly gets you in the Hall. Hell...not even almost...it gets you in period.

He played for average teams in StLouis and Edmonton. He never got a fair shake from the Wings while in Detroit. The only time he really had a chance to take a team to the cup was in Toronto. Those years are the only years where you can say he really had his chance to win. Its not like he blew any good chances for Cups in StLouis or Edmonton.

By the time he retires he will probably have more wins than Terry Sawchuk.

He gets in.

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12-02-2005, 11:12 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
Cujo's 400+ wins will get him in whether people like it or not. I think its almost a guarantee. 300 wins is a number that can be argued for or against. But not 400. 400 wins for goalies is about the same as 600 goals for a skater. It almost assuredly gets you in the Hall. Hell...not even almost...it gets you in period.
Dino Ciccarelli: 608 goals

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12-02-2005, 04:22 PM
  #21
Higgy4
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Originally Posted by arrbez
Dino Ciccarelli: 608 goals
Yeah...he'll get in too eventually. Certain numbers are just too hard to ignore. 600 goals and 400 wins are very hard to ignore.

I dont necessarily agree, mind you...but I think thats the way it is.

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12-02-2005, 11:43 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by V-2 Schneider
Steve Shutt is one of the greatest LW's(top 6) ever to play the game, and his HHOF credentials are questionable?
Top Six??? Hull, Lindsay. Doug Bentley, Mahovolich, Busher Jackson.Duff, Prentice, Olmstead, Moore, Paul thompson, Joliat. Here are 11 who were better & I am surethere are more

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12-03-2005, 10:08 PM
  #23
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Oh please.

Bentley would be the only one who would push Shutt out of top 6.Olmstead?

Hull
Bucyk
Mahovolich
Lindsay
Moore
Shutt

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12-03-2005, 11:27 PM
  #24
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LWs on THN Top 100 NHL Players
8. Bobby Hull
21. Ted Lindsay
26. Frank Mahovlich
31. Dickie Moore
45. John Bucyk
55. Busher Jackson
62. Cy Denneny
65. Aurel Joliat
66. Toe Blake
73. Doug Bentley
86. Bob Gainey
91. Sweeney Schriner

Shutt top 6? Not even close, I'd have no trouble rating him behind quite a few guys not on that list.

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12-04-2005, 12:34 AM
  #25
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Why does everyone hate poor Steve Shutt so much? He seems like a nice guy...

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