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Pirnes or Armstrong?

View Poll Results: Who should be sent down?
Pirnes 16 61.54%
Armstrong 10 38.46%
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Old
10-13-2003, 12:08 PM
  #1
TWS
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Pirnes or Armstrong?

If and when Allison and Deadmarsh come back, we are left with five centers. Which one do you think should be sent down(or scratched), Pirnes or Armstrong?

I believe that the lines may look like this:
Brown Allison Deadmarsh
Frolov Stumpel Palffy
Klatt ____ Robitaille
Avery Belanger Laperriere

We know Armstrong has played well with Klatt and Robitaille but I think that Pirnes has shown that he has great passing abilities and he may be able to create more space for Klatt and Robitaille.

What are your opinions?

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10-13-2003, 12:16 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kngbryn
If and when Allison and Deadmarsh come back, we are left with five centers. Which one do you think should be sent down(or scratched), Pirnes or Armstrong?

I believe that the lines may look like this:
Brown Allison Deadmarsh
Frolov Stumpel Palffy
Klatt ____ Robitaille
Avery Belanger Laperriere

We know Armstrong has played well with Klatt and Robitaille but I think that Pirnes has shown that he has great passing abilities and he may be able to create more space for Klatt and Robitaille.

What are your opinions?
Othet than his ability to draw penalty shots (and then miss them) I can't think of too many positive things to say about Pirnes.

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Old
10-13-2003, 12:18 PM
  #3
KingPurpleDinosaur
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i like pirnes and i like armstrong. personally, i wouldnt know which one to send down.

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10-13-2003, 01:55 PM
  #4
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When in doubt, take the more physical of the two with the most NHL experience... in this case it's Army.

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10-13-2003, 02:21 PM
  #5
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Well we all know who AM's choice will be. My choice however, would be Pirnes. I re-watched the game last night, and it was Armstrong's blown coverage on the Pk that led to the two goals.

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10-13-2003, 02:38 PM
  #6
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First off, if and when Allison and Deadmarsh (and Cammalleri) come back, Brown will almost certainly go to Guelph, no matter how much we are liking his play over the first handful of games. Jon Sim and/or Brad Chartrand would probably go down before Armstrong. Also, when Cammalleri comes back, don't be surprised to see him go to Manchester for at very least a stint for conditioning.

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10-13-2003, 03:33 PM
  #7
Face Wash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TubbyTerrion
First off, if and when Allison and Deadmarsh (and Cammalleri) come back, Brown will almost certainly go to Guelph, no matter how much we are liking his play over the first handful of games.
The Kings have 7 more games to decide, otherwise Dustin's not going anywhere. He can't play in the "A" he's too young (must be 20) and he can't go back to Guelph after 10 games (NHL rules)... and while I hope I'm wrong, I don't think Ally and Deader are going to be back before this 7-Game homestand is over...

My bet right now, knowing what I know (or don't know) about the Deader and Ally is, Brown's an NHLer and will remain that way this season. Which frankly doesn't bother me. He plays like he belongs and it's really exciting to see (him and Gleason I think are going to be TREMENDOUS).

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10-13-2003, 03:50 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face Wash
and he can't go back to Guelph after 10 games (NHL rules)...
Actually, I believe he can. (not positive, but pretty sure)

Case in point: Steve Eminger

Eminger played in 17 games for Washington and then got sent down to Kitchener for their Memorial Cup Run.

However, after 10 games the contract kicks in fully so I believe teams have to pay him his whole NHL salary regardless of where he plays and he also loses 1 year of waiver exemption etc. This is why there is a 10 game "deadline" as teams don't want to keep players up unless they are actually contributing.

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10-13-2003, 04:18 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kngbryn
I believe that the lines may look like this:
Brown Allison Deadmarsh
Frolov Stumpel Palffy
Klatt ____ Robitaille
Avery Belanger Laperriere
Isn't Belanger too talented to be on the 4th line, or am I overrating him?

 
Old
10-13-2003, 04:26 PM
  #10
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I am not pretty sure, I am positive... Brown can return to Guelph at ANY TIME. Just that after 10 games a year ticks off his contract. Also, FYI, the Kings only pay him pro-rata for the time he is on the NHL roster.

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10-13-2003, 05:02 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willie
Actually, I believe he can. (not positive, but pretty sure)

Case in point: Steve Eminger

Eminger played in 17 games for Washington and then got sent down to Kitchener for their Memorial Cup Run.

However, after 10 games the contract kicks in fully so I believe teams have to pay him his whole NHL salary regardless of where he plays and he also loses 1 year of waiver exemption etc. This is why there is a 10 game "deadline" as teams don't want to keep players up unless they are actually contributing.
I don't know if you guys read it but Dustin Brown's contract is for 1,240,000/year.They won't send him back after 10 games because they will lose 1 year on his contract.With the new CBA coming up he would probably get free agency quicker.Not good for Kings.He will either go before 10 games or he is staying.

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Old
10-13-2003, 05:42 PM
  #12
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Im going with Army. In my mind Armstrong would have scored on at least 1 of the 2 penalty shots Pirnes has had.

 
Old
10-13-2003, 06:58 PM
  #13
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Settling Down

First off, it is most likely that Deader and Ally are looking to return somewhere mid-November to early-December. They haven't been allowed to practice in contact drills as of yet.

It doesn't seem that the team is ever going to 100% healthy. If and when it would ever happen, I could see some trading for draft picks (front office m.o.).

Next... look at the other Kings forwards on the IR....

Cammalleri 4-6 weeks, retro to 9/21
Aulin 4-6 months, retro to 9/4

Camy and Aulin belong on the team and they're out for a while too. In both cases, they will start at Manchester to condition and get some playing time and their legs.

Pirnes needs a good look. The club can send him down whenever they feel it is appropiate. He has flash, but nothing to raise my eyebrow too high. He has to show a sense of urgency because Hogeboom and Steckel are finishing up their senior seasons in college. Both are impact players. If Tambellini (soph @ U of Michigan) can repeat last seasons success, he might make the jump if the club commits.

Army is probably going to be on this team for the entire season. I see him going down to the 3rd or 4th line.

The Dustin Issue:

He can not be assigned to Manchester because he has junior eligibility remaining. The Kings can send him to Manchester for conditioning(2wks), but after that he either has to stay with the Kings or be sent back to his junior team. Brown is allowed to play 10 games in the NHL before he loses a year of exemption from waiver draft. He can be sent back to juniors at any time during the season, but if he plays in more than 10 games, he is on the team for a year. Or, if they want him in Manchester a year early, he would have to clear waviers. Now the game count is actually how many he actually plays. If he is scratched or on the IR, it doesn't count.

I think it would be stupid to send Brown back to his junior team. With the level of intensity he plays at now, he's a sure fit for the team. I think sending him back would have an adverse effect mentally. He knows (or atleast shows) that he belongs. He is so far ahead of his age group. I think Brown is aware of the prospective talent behind him. If you ask me, he is making his mark now and showing the club he is here to stay.

Whatever does happen, I pray that Brown stays and makes everyone believe. He is the kind of player that L.A. needs right now.

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Old
10-13-2003, 07:34 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAFRANCHZ
The Dustin Issue:

He can not be assigned to Manchester because he has junior eligibility remaining. The Kings can send him to Manchester for conditioning(2wks), but after that he either has to stay with the Kings or be sent back to his junior team. Brown is allowed to play 10 games in the NHL before he loses a year of exemption from waiver draft. He can be sent back to juniors at any time during the season, but if he plays in more than 10 games, he is on the team for a year. Or, if they want him in Manchester a year early, he would have to clear waviers. Now the game count is actually how many he actually plays. If he is scratched or on the IR, it doesn't count.
This whole statement is cockeyed and wrong. I'm not even sure where to begin to correct it, but let it suffice that it's totally not true.

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Old
10-13-2003, 10:05 PM
  #15
dafranchz
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What is that about???

Quote:
Originally Posted by TubbyTerrion
This whole statement is cockeyed and wrong. I'm not even sure where to begin to correct it, but let it suffice that it's totally not true.

I dug alittle deeper TT, hope I make you happy this time around.

From NHLPA.com.....

The current CBA

The current CBA, which was signed on January 13, 1995, following a three-month lockout by the owners, expires September 15, 2004.
The CBA is a document that governs all aspects of a player's rights and responsibilities relative to his employment with an NHL club. It covers such matters as entry-level compensation, free agency, waivers and grievances.

The CBA itself....

Article 8: Entry Draft

8.7. Age 18 and 19 Players.

(a) During the first two seasons next succeeding the draft
of an age 18 player, the Club he signs a contract with must first
offer him to the club from which he was claimed before it may
assign him out of the NHL.

(b) During the first season next succeeding the draft of an
age 19 player or a player who reaches his 19th birthday between
September 16 and December 31, inclusive, of the year of the
draft, the Club he signs a contract with must first offer him to
the club from which he was claimed before it may assign him
out of the NHL.

(c) During the seasons set forth in (a) and (b) above, the
age 18 and age 19 player, respectively, may be assigned to the
minor league team affiliate of his Club when his Junior team is
no longer in competition and provided he has been listed on the
Club's minor league eligibility list.

8.8. Assignment of Rights. The rights acquired under the
selection process under this Article shall be transferable
without waivers to any other Club by Standard Assignment and the
transferee Club shall thereby acquire all of the rights of the
original selecting Club.

Article 9: Entry Level Compensation

(a) No Club may enter into a Player Contract with a Rookie
(excluding a player who is age 25 or older) that provides for
Compensation in excess of that permitted by this Article. For
purposes of this Agreement, a Group IV Player under the age of 25
will be subject to this Article if such player was subject to
this Article at the time he became a "defected player" (as
defined in Section 10.2(b)(i)).

(b) The period covered by the Player Contract for every
Rookie, and the number of years that such player will be in the
Entry Level System and subject to the Compensation limits set out
in Section 9.3, shall be as indicated on the chart immediately
below, and during such period, the player shall be deemed to be a
"Group I Player":

First Contract Signing Age Period Covered by First
Contract and Years in the
Entry Level System and Subject
to Compensation Limits

18-21 3 years
22-23 2 years
24 1 year
25 and older No required number of years,
not in the Entry Level System
and not subject to limits on
Compensation

*

(c) (i) In the event that an 18 year old or 19 year old
player signs a Player Contract with a Club but does not play at
least 10 NHL games (regular season and/or playoffs) in the first
season under that player's Player Contract, the term of his
Player Contract and his number of years in the Entry Level System
shall be extended for a period of one year, except that this
automatic extension will not apply to a player who is age 19
according to Section 9.2 by virtue of turning 20 between
September 16 and December 31 in the year in which he first signs
a Player Contract.

(ii) In the event that a player signs his first
contract at age 18 and has had his Player Contract extended
pursuant to Subsection (i), and such player does not play at
least 10 NHL games (regular season and/or playoffs) in the
second season under that player's Player Contract, then the term
of his Player Contract and his number of years in the Entry Level
System shall be extended for one additional year.

(iii) In the event a player becomes a defected player
(as described in Section 10.2(b)(i)(A)) or, having signed a
Player Contract, ceases to render his playing services called for
thereunder (except as a result of injury or illness), in each
case during such period that he is in the Entry Level System,
then during such defected or non-playing period, as the case may
be, the player's number of years in the Entry Level System shall
be extended for a period equal to the remaining unfulfilled
portion of his Player Contract.

(iv) The return dates to Major Junior (as
established by Agreement between the NHL and the Canadian Hockey
League, dated May 2, 1995, (or any successor or similar agreement
so long as there is no material change in those return dates)),
and the prohibition on sending underage players to the Minor
Leagues (as set forth in Section 8.7) are hereby confirmed and
affirmed and are continued during the term of this Agreement and
any extension hereof.

9.2. Age of Players. As used in this Article, "age", including
"First Contract Signing Age," means a player's age on September
15 of the calendar year in which he signs a Player Contract
regardless of his actual age on the date he signs such contract.


Article 13:
Waivers and Loans of Players to Minor League Clubs; Waiver Draft

The following examples illustrate how the provisions in the
Waiver chart shall be applied:

(a) An 18 year old or 19 year old drafted in the '95 Entry
Draft who signed and played in 11 NHL Games or more in the
1995-96 season will be exempt as follows:

Season Waiver Draft Regular Season Waivers

95-96 n/a Exempt
96-97 Exempt Exempt
97-98 Exempt Exempt
98-99 Exempt Eligible
99-00 Eligible Eligible



13.5. Waiver Expiration. The rights granted under this
Article to assign a Player(s) who is otherwise required to clear
waivers to a minor league club expire for any Player(s) who,
after clearing the waiver draft or regular season waivers:

(i) is not sent to a minor league club, or
is recalled from a minor league club (except on emergency
recall); and

(ii) remains on an NHL roster for 30 days
(cumulative) or plays 10 NHL games (cumulative).

There...if you are still confused, get a lawyer or paralegal.

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Old
10-13-2003, 11:44 PM
  #16
Scottkmlps
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Quote:
(a) An 18 year old or 19 year old drafted in the '95 Entry
Draft who signed and played in 11 NHL Games or more in the
1995-96 season will be exempt as follows:

Season Waiver Draft Regular Season Waivers

95-96 n/a Exempt
96-97 Exempt Exempt
97-98 Exempt Exempt
98-99 Exempt Eligible
99-00 Eligible Eligible

Basically what I get from that, is Brown would not have to pass through waivers if he plays more than 10 games and then is sent back to juniors. That right there is just an example. Basically if that CBA was made up in 2002-2003, then Brown would be exempt from waivers for the next 3 regular seasons.
He can only be sent to Manchester, if his junior team, the Guelph Storm, were done for the season, and Manchester's season was still going. That is the only way he can play in Manchester before he is 20 yrs old.

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10-14-2003, 06:43 AM
  #17
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Aulin is out 4 to 6 Months not weeks... so we won't see Aulin up with the Kings until maybe March if at all this year....

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10-14-2003, 09:36 AM
  #18
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I'd keep Armstrong...

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Old
10-14-2003, 10:51 AM
  #19
dafranchz
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Fuzzy English

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottkmlps
Basically what I get from that, is Brown would not have to pass through waivers if he plays more than 10 games and then is sent back to juniors. That right there is just an example. Basically if that CBA was made up in 2002-2003, then Brown would be exempt from waivers for the next 3 regular seasons.
He can only be sent to Manchester, if his junior team, the Guelph Storm, were done for the season, and Manchester's season was still going. That is the only way he can play in Manchester before he is 20 yrs old.

No because the last year of the contract states that both 18 & 19yr olds were no longer exempt. Since the CBA of 1995 was extended, he would have to clear waivers unless it was amended, further changing the policy. If they invoke the right to continue under the same terms, everything would continue as written for the last year contained within.

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10-14-2003, 11:59 AM
  #20
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I'm pretty sure Steve Eminger wasn't subject to waivers last season (grin.)

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Old
10-14-2003, 12:10 PM
  #21
dafranchz
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Ah ha!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TubbyTerrion
I'm pretty sure Steve Eminger wasn't subject to waivers last season (grin.)
Good point...I would have to check that one out. I was just going off the contract. Like I said, they have a chance to amend articles when they extended it (twice).

Point and case, look at the compensation ($$$). They would have negotiate the pay level increases from yr to yr.

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