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Hollweg or Hossa.... (merged)

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Old
12-03-2005, 09:39 PM
  #51
nneate
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He will be back at the start of the next season.

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12-03-2005, 09:46 PM
  #52
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He just can't score and that is his job. Players not doing there jobs should be held accountable and Hossa should sit.

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12-03-2005, 09:47 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
He just can't score and that is his job. Players not doing there jobs should be held accountable and Hossa should sit.

Half our team would be sitting then. Just remember..not everyone can be Petr Prucha

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12-03-2005, 09:59 PM
  #54
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Half the other team...

does something other than score (talking about Hollweg, Moore, Ortmeyer, Ward, Betts and Nieminen).

As for Hossa...it's not bu-bye time. It may be time to take a step back and regroup, though. To be fair, though, the players with whom he plays aren't stellar offensively (Rucchin, in particular, seems to not show up for games often) and his power play time consists of spot duty to rest Jagr, or when Jagr's finished, which is tough because you're bringing the puck up and have to set-up; one slip-up and the PP's over.

Wouldn't mind seeing if a guy like Immonen could do with Hossa (although I'd rather see Immonen with Prucha and Rucinsky if either would switch positions), but the team has Rucchin now and I think Hossa suffers somewhat for it, as well as an occasional lack of effort.

It will be interesting to see who sits Monday if Ruca and Hollweg are ready. There will be a young kid as the odd man out, most likely, as the landscape for this team changed with wins and the signing of a couple wingers and trade for Rucchin.

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12-03-2005, 10:01 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88
Half our team would be sitting then. Just remember..not everyone can be Petr Prucha
Hossa was not brought here to be a checking line player. He sucks and I have yet to see anybody make a valid argument for keeping this guy in the lineup.

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12-03-2005, 10:03 PM
  #56
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The only valid argument...

is that he's immensely talented and he's young, and that perhaps he's not being used properly (i.e., it's not his fault his centerman isn't a playmaker and too often isn't very offensively inclined; further, it's not his fault that he doesn't get any PP time).

There are cons, of course.

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12-03-2005, 10:04 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Fletch
is that he's immensely talented and he's young, and that perhaps he's not being used properly (i.e., it's not his fault his centerman isn't a playmaker and too often isn't very offensively inclined; further, it's not his fault that he doesn't get any PP time).

There are cons, of course.
Wow i thought the days of blaming linemates for lack of production died when Lundmark was traded.

I understand your hate for Rucchin but its not his fault Hossa can't score on any of the chances he has been given. Fletch its not like his line is always in the neutral zone or the defensive zone. Hossa gets his chances (each of his goals was because of somebody elses hardwork) because of his teammates.

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Old
12-03-2005, 10:06 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
is that he's immensely talented and he's young, and that perhaps he's not being used properly (i.e., it's not his fault his centerman isn't a playmaker and too often isn't very offensively inclined; further, it's not his fault that he doesn't get any PP time).

There are cons, of course.
Edit- just reading your thing above SoS...this rant is completey on Rucchin until I use a break in it.

Which I think is enough to keep him around. Hossa takes a lot of flack but nobody seems to say anything about Rucchin, he takes almost every night off it seems, he hasn't been over average on faceoffs either this season, and hes completely useless on the PP IMO.
----
A line of Rucinsky - Immonen - Hossa would be mighty tasty, Immonen is quick and a good playmarker, I think he would be perfect between those 2 wings. Hopefully he is brought up before we give Hossa the Ax.

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12-03-2005, 10:08 PM
  #59
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Hossa is the only regular player who has shown me absolutely nothing this season. Sure he got a few points in the begining of the season, but now he just looks lost whenever he touches the puck. Even in the shootout he looked like he didn't know what he was doing. Every other player on the roster has shown signs that they want to work for this team, he seems to slow down and try to make some nifty moves whenever he gets the puck, instead of getting it deep, or trying to make the right play. It's all about the name, same with Fedor, time to let the real players play (ie Prucha)...

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12-03-2005, 10:23 PM
  #60
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SoS...

this is weird for me because after the first game of the season, I stated that Hossa scores because of his linemates' hard work - and said that several times, and am not his biggest fan (and I don't know why you think I hate Rucchin - I actually like Rucchin, but sometimes feel that I would've like to have seen Immonen get a shot over him). I'm not putting it all on Rucchin. The difference between Lundmark and Hossa is that Hossa's much more talented and can actually get hit and stay on the puck. There's also a lot of talent there - so I'm a bit tempted to try to see if there's a combination that works for him. Further, PP time would be nice, which he really doesn't get. Lundmark had PP time. Lundmark had multiple linemates and roles. He was given every opportunity. Hossa really hasn't, and with this team's record, he can be given a few more.

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Old
12-03-2005, 10:32 PM
  #61
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hossa sucks. most overrated player on nyr. hollweg is an absolut work horse. love him

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12-03-2005, 10:37 PM
  #62
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The thing about Hossa that bothers me is that he lacks the motivation, you can see he has the talent... but he just refuses to take that extra step to get better, it's like he's gotten too comfortable up here... Renney needs to send him the message that he clearly is not getting the job done, and a few games minimum down in Hartford or in the Skybox as a healthy scratch should do the trick, if not, then there's no hope for this guy and he's just wasted talent.

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12-03-2005, 11:58 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
I don't know if that's possible. What we'd call a "good game" for Ward isn't the same as a "good game" for Hossa in the context of their abilitites and expectations. Isn't it safe to say that Ward is meeting or exceeding your expectations while Hossa is falling short of them?
I apologize for not stating my thoughts more clearly. I did not intent to insinuate that Ward and Hossa are the same player, and you all obviously know that isn't the case. So, by standard criteria I simply meant impartiality. In other words, no double standards. Failing to recognize the contribution of one man, while admiring that of another.

TB,

I'm not sure what else to say, other than to suggest that perhaps many people did not realize what they were getting with Hossa. He's a high pick with a superstar brother and clearly that has set the expectations more so than what he's done his entire career.

The way I see it, he's making enough contributions to warrant a spot in the lineup and further opportunities to find his offensive stride.The defensive responsibility is there, and by that I mean he is not a liability. He isn't one of those one-way experiments that demands production to ensure his roster spot remains valid.

He needs to learn that the NHL game isn't going to slow down and give him space as soon as he gets the puck. He also needs to learn that in order to find available ice he needs to keep his feet moving in the offensive end or during transition plays.

These are the growing pains of a rebuild I'm afraid. Don't let the record fool you, we're still very much an inexperienced, somewhat skill-wise incapable club. No finish, no touch, little offensive chemistry beyond the first line. Giving guys like Hossa the opportunity to play and develop now is what is going to turn the tide for this working team next year, or the year after.

-----

I don't want to get into who you'd replace him with or the adaptability of each winger, but I am curious as to where you'd put Hossa if you're willing to admit that at the very least he should be playing.

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Old
12-04-2005, 12:07 AM
  #64
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There isn't a Ranger player more useless and contributes less then Marcel Hossa...He's the exact same player he was before we traded for him and the exact player to be expected....Brings little to the table even when going well, which isn't very often...A floater of the 1st degree...And as inconisitent as they come...Unless he changes his stripes big time he is not a player that belongs with this Ranger team..Not only should he be sitting for Prucha, Hollweg, Strudwick and even Orr (maybe), there are guys in Hartford that should be given a shot....I understand not getting rid of him entirely because he is young and has some talent but right now he needs to sit because ice time on this team should be built on merit and Hossa merits nothing.....

Now I totally expect him to score two goals in his next came so maybe I can start reheating the crow that was put in the freezer long ago....

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12-04-2005, 12:12 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Nemchinov13
TB, you want Straka on RW. That's fine enough if we want to continue piling up points and be in playoffs. But how many more years will Straka play for us? Or Rucinsky? Or Nylander? Or even Jason Ward? With our bottom 2 lines set for years, and with defense already playing 2 home grown players, our weakest link in the rebuilding is our top two lines.
See, here's the thing. My concern is more for what happens when everyone is healthy. At that point someone sits. Personally, I have become a Ward convert to the extent that I believe that he is on equal footing with Betts, Ortmeyer, Moore & Hollweg. And aren't him and Ortmeyer the same age (27?)? If you state that our bottom two lines are set for years, then as of right now you have to include Ward in that statement. So if they aren't to sit becuase they are doing and showing more to be in the future plans for the jobs that they do, then who is? Certainly not Prucha. Now that leaves Hossa vs. Neimo. If you belive that the aforementioned bottom liners are doing their job and are handling their responsibilities well, then one of Hossa or Neimo needs to sit. The question is who is doing better? IMO, it is Neimo.

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Old
12-04-2005, 12:26 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by BigE
The way I see it, he's making enough contributions to warrant a spot in the lineup and further opportunities to find his offensive stride.The defensive responsibility is there, and by that I mean he is not a liability. He isn't one of those one-way experiments that demands production to ensure his roster spot remains valid.
See my response above. I do not think that he is making enough contributions in performing his job to warrant him staying. What is his job? Is it to hit, a la Hollweg? Certainly not. Is it to play well defensively against the other teams top lines, a la Ortmeyer & Ward? Certainly not. Is it to contribute to the league's #2 PK unit? Certainly not. What does that leave? Isn't it to get points or at least create some kind of scoring chances? I am not looking for a top 20 point producer here, I am just hoping for someone who can put one in the net more than once every 20-25 games or get more than one assist every 10 or so.
I know that people will bring up Rucchin, but Rucchin is a center who is not going to be moved to wing. And I think we will all admit that Rucchin would be fine as a third line center on another contending team. He is clearly not cut out to be a second line center. Here, he is miscast. But he plays hard and checks whatever other team brings out there. Now, if we could trade him and and see what Immonen has got......ahh, but that is a topic for another time.
Hossa's job will never be whatever job description you are willing to give to any of the bottom 2 line players. So it is useless to play him there. That leaves your 2nd line. And if a 2nd line player is returning, as is the case with Rucinsky, the only player not pulling his weight needs to sit.

"These are the growing pains of a rebuild I'm afraid. Don't let the record fool you, we're still very much an inexperienced, somewhat skill-wise incapable club. No finish, no touch, little offensive chemistry beyond the first line. Giving guys like Hossa the opportunity to play and develop now is what is going to turn the tide for this working team next year, or the year after."

I do not deny that this team will and should experience growing pains. Much as I have been enjoying seeing what I am seeing, I am not blind to the warts of this team and the organization. However, while I am seeing players out there who we feel comfortable will be a part of our future and grow, I am not seeing Hossa as one who will be a member of that group.

"I don't want to get into who you'd replace him with or the adaptability of each winger, but I am curious as to where you'd put Hossa if you're willing to admit that at the very least he should be playing."

If he is to be playing right now due to the various injuries, I would play him exactly where he is. As I have already mentioned, I do not believe that he can perform the job of any of our current bottom liners. Even if he tried his heart out, he could not do the job that they do. That leaves the top 2 lines. No point in playing him with Jagr, as that may actually hurt the team. So he stays where he is and keep hoping that he shows something from now to when everyone is healthy.
What I would have loved to see is that when Rucchin was hurt, if Immonen was called up and we could see what he has. A line of Prucha-Immonen-Hossa would have been interesting. At least if Hossa performed at the same level (as I beleive he would), people would no longer use Rucchin as one of the reasons for Hossa's failures. Note: maybe a better way to say it would be not to view Rucchin as one of the contributing factors in Hossa's play.


Last edited by True Blue: 12-04-2005 at 12:31 AM.
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Old
12-04-2005, 12:57 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
However, while I am seeing players out there who we feel comfortable will be a part of our future and grow, I am not seeing Hossa as one who will be a member of that group.
TB, as of now, Hossa is our only prospect at RW that has a top two line offensive talent. Until we draft such RW or trade for such prospect, Hossa is the only young player that has tools to play 2nd line RW.

What he lacks is the drive, but that's another topic.

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12-04-2005, 01:29 AM
  #68
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Rucchin-smucchin, whatever!

You've agreed that we're in a rebuild, yet Hossa needs to produce! He's not hurting the team, and at this point he's not even delaying the development of any other must have prospects on this team. So why not let him play more and continue to 'try to' develop?

You demand that he must be able to do one thing, when infact he does do one thing and quite better than most Ranger try-outs in the past, and that is refuse to be a liability. He back checks, he forechecks and contrary to his production levels he is getting chances (2 in the first period against the Pens the other night, plus the breakaway aborted by the period buzzer).

I see what you're basing your analysis on because he shows lightning speed one minute and no speed the next. It gives the impression that there is no effort, no hustle, and no desire. Then the mistakes get bigger, and the good plays get smaller. Does that absolutely not seem to be the case? And was that absolutely not the case with Ward and this board?

----
On a topic completely unrelated to this, Jamie Lundmark had 3 assists in Phoenix's route tonight.

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12-04-2005, 04:10 AM
  #69
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As a hab fan... just want to say... "told ya so"...


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12-04-2005, 07:11 AM
  #70
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The Rangers would like to have a 2nd line that can produce--they just don't. The line with Rucchin--Hossa--Rucinsky was doing okay but Martin was the real offensive catalyst there. The other 2 have been lost without him and they don't produce anything. One part of the solution may be in Hartford (Immonen). Another might be Prucha. In the meantime you'd have to figure out what to do with Steve and Marcel. The Rangers seem to think that as long as the team is winning they can continue to play them on the 2nd line and hope that some chemistry finally kicks in. If we start losing games though it will have to be addressed.

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12-04-2005, 07:26 AM
  #71
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When the whole team plays bad, it's easier to see how little Hossa has done and is doing for this team. He needs to score or sit.

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12-04-2005, 09:41 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemchinov13
TB, as of now, Hossa is our only prospect at RW that has a top two line offensive talent. Until we draft such RW or trade for such prospect, Hossa is the only young player that has tools to play 2nd line RW.
But what if our so-called prospect simpy refuses to use the tools that he has to even be a mediocre 2nd line player? Simply stating that Hossa should be playing becuase we have no one else is akin to Kamensky skating around for months on-end so that we can drum up his trade value. Let's not take that quote out of context please.
Ok, here is my question to you. Fine, Hossa plays right now when we have injuries. My issue has not been let's get him out of the lineup right now. My issue has always been that he is the most deserving of not being dressed when ALL are healthy. No one has yet presented any type of argument as to why Hossa should be dressed for games at the expense of Ward, Ortmeyer or Hollweg. And let's pleaes realize that that is exactly what the issue is going to be when Rucinsky is finally healthy.
How long do we give him? At what point do you pull the plug on the experiment? IMO, that point comes when Rucinsky can play and someone HAS to come out of the lineup. There is no avoiding that issue. Can you really present an argument to me of why Hossa deserves to play ahead of one of Ward, Ortmeyer or Hollweg?

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12-04-2005, 09:54 AM
  #73
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You've agreed that we're in a rebuild, yet Hossa needs to produce!
Let's not take everything out of context. Yes, we are in a rebuild. But the problem is not that Hossa is not producing, the problem is that he is not showing even one blessed thing that would lead anyone to say that when Rucinsky is healthy, that it should be one of Ward, Hollweg or Ortmeyer that is sat so that Hossa can stay and play. Even rookie (which he is NOT) 2nd line players need to show SOMETHING. What has he show? How has he been an essential ingredient? What does he bring to the table?

"He's not hurting the team, and at this point he's not even delaying the development of any other must have prospects on this team. So why not let him play more and continue to 'try to' develop?"

Here's the bottom line. If you want more playing time for Hossa, then you have to be prepared to argue why either Ward, Hollweg or Ortmeyer should be sat so that Hossa can play. That's it. I have presented many arguments why that threesome should play ahead of Hossa. The real issue of this situation is that who sits when Rucinsky comes back? If you state that Hossa should not be the one to sit, then you have to be able to explain why Ward, Hollweg or Ortmeyer deserve to be sat instead.

"You demand that he must be able to do one thing, when infact he does do one thing and quite better than most Ranger try-outs in the past, and that is refuse to be a liability."

So his only saving grace is that he is not a liability? That's it? Sorry, but there have to be better reasons for someone to stay in the lineup, other than he is not a liability.

"And was that absolutely not the case with Ward and this board?"

Ward and Hossa are not to be judged in a similar manner. Ward is a third liner. He has been doing the job of a very good third liner. Hossa is a 2nd line offensive player. He is incapable of doing the job of any of our current bottom 2 line players. Or is there a sentiment that he can do the job of one of Ward, Ortmeyer or Hollweg? If not, then we cannot judge him in the same way. Ward brings a tangible asset to the table. Ortmeyer, Ward & Hollweg have made their cases as to why they belong in the lineup each and every day. They do their job well. And they can grow to be even better, but in the scope of what is their job description.
Can you say the same thing about Hossa? What case has he made that he should be playing when someone will need to sit when Rucinsky comes back? There is no avoiding that issue. Someone MUST sit whe Rucinsky is back. I have yet to see anybody present a case as to why Hossa should be dressed at the expense of the aforementioned threesome.

"On a topic completely unrelated to this, Jamie Lundmark had 3 assists in Phoenix's route tonight."

I saw that. I probably will always have a soft spot in my heart for Jaime. With his three assits, he now has more points than Hossa has had over the last month. I still maintain that had it been Lundmark in Hossa's spot this year, this board would be littered with negative Lundmark posts. He would not have the defenders that Hossa has.

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12-04-2005, 11:33 AM
  #74
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BigE...

you said something important: 'These are the growing pains of a rebuild I'm afraid'. The question is, is this a rebuild? When we saw Straka and Rucinsky signed, and Rucchin, we said, there's room for one offensive forward in a top 6 role, and this team arguably may have two or even three that teams in a rebuild would play (Immonen, Prucha and Hossa). But, this isn't a rebuild. It's a rebuild in the sense that it was the past seven seasons - the main difference is the horses the coach relies on (Jagr & Co.) and goaltending have been stellar - which helped breed hard work from the bottom two lines to not hurt the Rangers and often help. In a true rebuild, we wouldn't be talking about Hossa and possibly sitting (and if this was Prucha, we'd say the same thing), as he would go through these growing pains. This isn't a true rebuild.

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12-04-2005, 01:50 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
This isn't a true rebuild.
Cue rant by one of Sather's HF brothers-in-law in 3 seconds ... 2 seconds ... 1 ...

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