HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Legacy of Ken Holland

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-01-2015, 10:52 PM
  #26
Bruce Joker
Professor X
 
Bruce Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: East Coast
Country: United States
Posts: 13,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Poile has always been good finding defencmen. Also at his Washington days.

Holland has turned our drafting nicely around letting Jim Nill and Joe McDonell walk and aquiring Tyler Wright. Phenomenal difference since day 1.

Our North American drafting/developing was abysmal under Nill's tenure. All current core is basicly Håkan Andersson's European steals from last 2 decades.

Now Wright has changed all and NA looks to be again our strong area. At least for forwards. Tough to say about defencemen yet. It takes so much time.
Nill isnt as good at drafting as some like to believe. The European scouts really are the heart and soul of this team.

Holland is doing good right now at finding up and coming scouts (that one cbj scout, Idk if hes here anymore though) and pretty much what you said.

Bruce Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2015, 09:55 AM
  #27
Wrigley
The Lollipop Guild
 
Wrigley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 9,185
vCash: 3495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
Most of the years posted so far in the OP (up to year 17) look anywhere from "Hey, that's a pretty nice season, all things considered!" to "Oh my God I love you Ken Holland!!!" ...
Agreed. My dad grew up in the Detroit area and has been a fan since the 30s. I agree with him that all true Wings fans love Holland.

__________________
Wrigley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2015, 12:02 PM
  #28
Cyborg Yzerberg
Sitting on a Cloud
 
Cyborg Yzerberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere Land
Country: Seychelles
Posts: 8,976
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrigley View Post
Agreed. My dad grew up in the Detroit area and has been a fan since the 30s. I agree with him that all true Wings fans love Holland.
I love Ken Holland from 1997-2009. That Ken Holland ruled. Ken Holland from 2009-2015 leaves me with a lukewarm feeling.

Cyborg Yzerberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2015, 12:52 PM
  #29
SimplySolace
"We like our team"
 
SimplySolace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 3,059
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrigley View Post
Agreed. My dad grew up in the Detroit area and has been a fan since the 30s. I agree with him that all true Wings fans love Holland.
"All true Wings fans" or maybe those that don't have their eyes open to see the past 5 years or so have been mediocre at best.

SimplySolace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2015, 01:47 PM
  #30
Electric Eric
#91 To the Rafters!
 
Electric Eric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Country: United States
Posts: 888
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplySolace View Post
"All true Wings fans" or maybe those that don't have their eyes open to see the past 5 years or so have been mediocre at best.
No true scotsman at heart.

People are as blinded by loyalty as Holland is.

Electric Eric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2015, 04:45 PM
  #31
Eternal Sunshine
 
Eternal Sunshine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Somalia
Posts: 26,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrigley View Post
Agreed. My dad grew up in the Detroit area and has been a fan since the 30s. I agree with him that all true Wings fans love Holland.
Sounds a lot like my father as well

Eternal Sunshine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2015, 09:54 PM
  #32
waltdetroit
Registered User
 
waltdetroit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,353
vCash: 500
i guess you have had to live through the "Darkness"

waltdetroit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2015, 11:07 PM
  #33
Bruce Joker
Professor X
 
Bruce Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: East Coast
Country: United States
Posts: 13,159
vCash: 500
Just because a person brings back glory to a team doesn't mean he has not done a bad job recently.

Bruce Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2015, 12:22 PM
  #34
Claypool*
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,401
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerberg View Post
Ken Holland from 2009-2015 leaves me with a lukewarm feeling.
Should create a list of all players fans were calling for him to sign that ended up being a bust on other teams.

Claypool* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2015, 12:38 PM
  #35
Cyborg Yzerberg
Sitting on a Cloud
 
Cyborg Yzerberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere Land
Country: Seychelles
Posts: 8,976
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claypool View Post
Should create a list of all players fans were calling for him to sign that ended up being a bust on other teams.
And then make a list of his transactions that ended up being also bad

Cyborg Yzerberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2015, 12:42 PM
  #36
Claypool*
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,401
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerberg View Post
And then make a list of his transactions that ended up being also bad
The only really bad one was Weiss, and he was always injured. I'll also throw the Quincy trade in there since he never replicated his offensive potential.

Claypool* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2015, 02:16 PM
  #37
Eternal Sunshine
 
Eternal Sunshine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Somalia
Posts: 26,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claypool View Post
The only really bad one was Weiss, and he was always injured. I'll also throw the Quincy trade in there since he never replicated his offensive potential.
Weiss was great IMO

Holland actually kind of took a chance and got what in theory should have been a 1B/ elite 2C, I don't fault him for signing a guy who immediately turned into glass

Quincey deserves more than a "throw in" status mention, that trade was terrible the day it was made

Eternal Sunshine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2015, 02:20 PM
  #38
InjuredChoker
Registered User
 
InjuredChoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: LTIR or golf course
Posts: 30,321
vCash: 925
weiss signing turned out very bad but i liked it at the time quite a bit. of course it's risky to sign around 30yr old forward who hadn't been healthy on the ice for more than a year, had fairly significant injury history and history of paying through those injuries... and then he got injured early on and tried to play through it.

InjuredChoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-03-2016, 06:15 PM
  #39
Reddwit
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Joker View Post
Franzen was a beast. So holland flipped a coin
Always, always, always go with the skilled two-way player in the face of signing a pseudo-power forward. Choosing Franzen over Hossa was a huge mistake without hindsight. One guy was, at his best, a 60 point forward with a short track record. The other guy was, at his worst, a 60 point forward with an elite, safe track record. That was Holland's first mistake.

Holland's second mistake was thinking he had to choose between the two in the first place. Holland could've picked up an easy $5M by trading Filppula and passing on one of Bertuzzi/Williams and a depth player. Then the conversation becomes Hossa versus Filppula/Williams/Lilja. And that is exactly the type of move that has kept Chicago in the elite. Get your core players, supplement expensive secondaries with reclamation projects or depth guys, and add some talent at the deadline when the player costs 20% of their regular price.

Holmstrom - Datsyuk - Hossa
Cleary(still a 40 point guy)- Zetterberg - Franzen
Bertuzzi(still a 45 point guy) - Helm - Abbdelkader/Leino
Maltby - Draper - Eaves
May/Maltby

Lidstrom-Rafalski
Kronwall-Stuart
Ericsson-Lebda
Meech

Howard
Osgood

Imagine trading Filppula for two 2nd round picks or something similar then basically replacing him at the deadline with Stempniak (48 points that year - traded for a depth player, a 4th, and a 7th), Ponikarovksy (50 points - traded for salaried roster depth + B prospect), Matt Cullen (48 points - traded for 2nd and a B prospect). Those are just the guys who were actually traded at the time.

Reddwit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-03-2016, 06:46 PM
  #40
Reddwit
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerberg View Post
And then make a list of his transactions that ended up being also bad
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claypool View Post
The only really bad one was Weiss, and he was always injured. I'll also throw the Quincy trade in there since he never replicated his offensive potential.
Wait...transactions since when?

Jason Williams part 2, Colaiacovo, White, Bertuzzi part 2, Samuelsson part 2, Tootoo, Weiss, Ericsson, Howard, Quincey...

Reddwit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-03-2016, 11:34 PM
  #41
Dotter
11cups25 #hockeytown
 
Dotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,260
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerberg View Post
I love Ken Holland from 1997-2009. That Ken Holland ruled. Ken Holland from 2009-2015 leaves me with a lukewarm feeling.
Salary cap era + no 1st or 2dn overall picks can do that to the best of GMs. As proven with Ken Holland.

Besides Detroit, Boston is the only team that has won the cup that didn't draft 1st or 2nd overall, but did steal Tyler Seguin who helped them win a cup. And had the hottest goalie in the NHL playoffs since Giguere's pads.

Since then, Boston failed to make the post season last season and possibly again tis season.

Dotter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-03-2016, 11:39 PM
  #42
Dotter
11cups25 #hockeytown
 
Dotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,260
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddwit View Post
Always, always, always go with the skilled two-way player in the face of signing a pseudo-power forward. Choosing Franzen over Hossa was a huge mistake without hindsight. One guy was, at his best, a 60 point forward with a short track record. The other guy was, at his worst, a 60 point forward with an elite, safe track record. That was Holland's first mistake.

Holland's second mistake was thinking he had to choose between the two in the first place. Holland could've picked up an easy $5M by trading Filppula and passing on one of Bertuzzi/Williams and a depth player. Then the conversation becomes Hossa versus Filppula/Williams/Lilja. And that is exactly the type of move that has kept Chicago in the elite. Get your core players, supplement expensive secondaries with reclamation projects or depth guys, and add some talent at the deadline when the player costs 20% of their regular price.

Holmstrom - Datsyuk - Hossa
Cleary(still a 40 point guy)- Zetterberg - Franzen
Bertuzzi(still a 45 point guy) - Helm - Abbdelkader/Leino
Maltby - Draper - Eaves
May/Maltby

Lidstrom-Rafalski
Kronwall-Stuart
Ericsson-Lebda
Meech

Howard
Osgood

Imagine trading Filppula for two 2nd round picks or something similar then basically replacing him at the deadline with Stempniak (48 points that year - traded for a depth player, a 4th, and a 7th), Ponikarovksy (50 points - traded for salaried roster depth + B prospect), Matt Cullen (48 points - traded for 2nd and a B prospect). Those are just the guys who were actually traded at the time.
So you were wanting Ken Holland to sign even more cap circumvented contracts? How nice!

People blame Kenny for signing too many cap circumvention contracts (not sure if you were one attacking Kenny for this), but you wanted him to sign more???

Two is enuff, thank you.

Dotter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-04-2016, 01:00 AM
  #43
Reddwit
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dotter View Post
So you were wanting Ken Holland to sign even more cap circumvented contracts? How nice!

People blame Kenny for signing too many cap circumvention contracts (not sure if you were one attacking Kenny for this), but you wanted him to sign more???

Two is enuff, thank you.
To have better chances at more Cups? Absolutely. One more cap circumventing deal down the line when the ship is sprouting holes isn't going to make any difference.

Reddwit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-04-2016, 01:07 AM
  #44
Reddwit
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrigley View Post
Agreed. My dad grew up in the Detroit area and has been a fan since the 30s. I agree with him that all true Wings fans love Holland.
Uhh wtf? Holland isn't a machine. He didn't just reach peak GMing and never falter. The rules of the game changed with the salary cap and then he averaged out. Nothing special anymore. It's no different than Zetterberg or Lidstrom losing several steps. Are we not true fans because we recognize when a member of the organization is no longer elite? What a crock. I could just as easily say that being so invested in a team that you are aware of all the intricacies of their transactions, and therefore can ferret out the mistakes, makes you a "true" fan, whatever that means.

Reddwit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-04-2016, 02:46 AM
  #45
Bruce Joker
Professor X
 
Bruce Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: East Coast
Country: United States
Posts: 13,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddwit View Post
Always, always, always go with the skilled two-way player in the face of signing a pseudo-power forward. Choosing Franzen over Hossa was a huge mistake without hindsight. One guy was, at his best, a 60 point forward with a short track record. The other guy was, at his worst, a 60 point forward with an elite, safe track record. That was Holland's first mistake.

Holland's second mistake was thinking he had to choose between the two in the first place. Holland could've picked up an easy $5M by trading Filppula and passing on one of Bertuzzi/Williams and a depth player. Then the conversation becomes Hossa versus Filppula/Williams/Lilja. And that is exactly the type of move that has kept Chicago in the elite. Get your core players, supplement expensive secondaries with reclamation projects or depth guys, and add some talent at the deadline when the player costs 20% of their regular price.

Holmstrom - Datsyuk - Hossa
Cleary(still a 40 point guy)- Zetterberg - Franzen
Bertuzzi(still a 45 point guy) - Helm - Abbdelkader/Leino
Maltby - Draper - Eaves
May/Maltby

Lidstrom-Rafalski
Kronwall-Stuart
Ericsson-Lebda
Meech

Howard
Osgood

Imagine trading Filppula for two 2nd round picks or something similar then basically replacing him at the deadline with Stempniak (48 points that year - traded for a depth player, a 4th, and a 7th), Ponikarovksy (50 points - traded for salaried roster depth + B prospect), Matt Cullen (48 points - traded for 2nd and a B prospect). Those are just the guys who were actually traded at the time.
I don't know what the cap was. But I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fit

Bruce Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-04-2016, 08:49 AM
  #46
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,477
vCash: 500
how come holland gets praised for finding guys like zetterberg and datsyuk or being allowed to outspend everyone else pre-cap world and almost "buy" a stanley cup in 2002 but any and all mistakes or miscalculations made in the past 6 or 7 years are chalked up as being outside his control

i mean if you get praised for zetterberg and labeled a genius why not be labeled a dimwit for missing on subban or keith or weber?

how can it possibly be one and not the other, if it is, then the opinion is clearly just biased

KH did a great job unearthing extreme talent in the late 1990s thru early 2000s and was also very aggressive in obtaining the types of players we need(veterans, hard nosed guys, smart players, fast, strong, etc) but has not been that same GM

Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-04-2016, 09:34 AM
  #47
Bruce Joker
Professor X
 
Bruce Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: East Coast
Country: United States
Posts: 13,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
how come holland gets praised for finding guys like zetterberg and datsyuk or being allowed to outspend everyone else pre-cap world and almost "buy" a stanley cup in 2002 but any and all mistakes or miscalculations made in the past 6 or 7 years are chalked up as being outside his control

i mean if you get praised for zetterberg and labeled a genius why not be labeled a dimwit for missing on subban or keith or weber?

how can it possibly be one and not the other, if it is, then the opinion is clearly just biased

KH did a great job unearthing extreme talent in the late 1990s thru early 2000s and was also very aggressive in obtaining the types of players we need(veterans, hard nosed guys, smart players, fast, strong, etc) but has not been that same GM
You do realize every gm is the same right. People praise the good ones. And don't hate on him if he misses a subban

Hell people praise Gms for picking the Connor mcdavid 1st overall

Bruce Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-04-2016, 10:01 AM
  #48
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,477
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Joker View Post
You do realize every gm is the same right. People praise the good ones. And don't hate on him if he misses a subban

Hell people praise Gms for picking the Connor mcdavid 1st overall
the GM's people praise are GM's who more than likely have been among the best of their peers lately, not a decade or two ago

MOD

a GM should be judged on his whole body of work, not just praising the good and ignoring or excusing the bad


Last edited by SoupNazi: 04-04-2016 at 11:21 AM. Reason: #1
Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-04-2016, 11:49 AM
  #49
Pizzarena91
hot and REaDy Wings
 
Pizzarena91's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MI
Posts: 3,813
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dotter View Post
Salary cap era + no 1st or 2dn overall picks can do that to the best of GMs. As proven with Ken Holland.

Besides Detroit, Boston is the only team that has won the cup that didn't draft 1st or 2nd overall, but did steal Tyler Seguin who helped them win a cup. And had the hottest goalie in the NHL playoffs since Giguere's pads.

Since then, Boston failed to make the post season last season and possibly again tis season.
Thank you for summarizing that pretty well. So tired of the Boston argument for not needing to rebuild through the draft. I go the route of Chicago, Pitts, LA 6000 times out of 10 before trying the Boston route. And before you say Edmonton I say Toronto Calgary, NYR. All teams that have a recent or semi-recent history of abysmal mediocrity trying to "Free Agent" their way to success.

Boston was also a true story of "Anything can happen in the playoffs" put Chara in front of the hottest goalie to arrive since Gigure and its gonna be a world beater. Tim Tomas was a completely random outlier in the equation of skipping the draft to the cup.

Pizzarena91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-04-2016, 02:13 PM
  #50
Frk It
Crap Space
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 22,801
vCash: 500
Do you think our grand kids will debate Franzen vs Hossa on here?

Frk It is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:58 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.