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The Legacy of Ken Holland

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Old
04-04-2016, 02:38 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Do you think our grand kids will debate Franzen vs Hossa on here?
Too busy celebrating the human hybrid leading our team of Yzerman, Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Zetterberg, and Shanahan.

He is literally a human hybrid of those people.

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04-04-2016, 03:55 PM
  #52
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I don't know what the cap was. But I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fit
56.8. Filppula, Lilja and Williams made a combined $5.7M. Everyone else was on the roster. Almost everyone in that bottom 6 sans Draper made 800k or less, several made 500k-600k, and the goaltending tandem cost less than $2.5M. The numbers are available through hockeyzoneplus, capfriendly and wiki.

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04-04-2016, 05:58 PM
  #53
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I remember, I did cap calculations for that Hossa vs. Franzen scenarios and it was very difficult to have that Hossa 5.2M on the roster instead of 3.9M Mule. At least one 5-man unit should have been changed to unproven prospects or carbage UFAs with minimun salaries. That would have been a worse team.

Economy crisis at 2008 and cap standing pat for 2009-10 +our biggest extensions after succes (Zetterberg raise after 2009, Franzen raise after 2009) killed our cap situation and also this Hossa situation. Period. There was no room. Period.

People haven't ever shown any kind of real plan to build a roster with Hossa instead of Franzen. Just trash-talking not based on any facts.

As we see more of our drafting results from past years, our biggest problems have been Jim Nill & Joe McDonell as our scouting directors. Their abysmal North Amrican drafting has been our biggest problem, when we needed new young talent on the roster.

When these two guys have been our scouting directors (Nill from 1995 to 2003, McDonell from 2004 to 2012), almost every good prospect has been European scouted gem by Håkan Andersson. Best North American draftees during 18 years were Kyle Quincey, Jimmy Howard, Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm and Jiri Fischer. That's it. Andersson also had influence for that Fischer-pick which was the best one.

During same era, Andersson picked Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Filppula, Hudler, Fleischmann, Kopecky, Ericsson, Franzen, Tatar, Nyquist, Järnkrok, Janmark, Mrazek etc. Unbelieveable record. Just like Ken Holland record when he was our scouting director from 1988 to 1994. We picked up great talent every year. Sheldon Kennedy, Mike Sillinger, Bob Boughner, Lidström. Fedorov, Drake, Konstantinov, Keith Primeau, Kozlov, Jason York, Lapointe, Osgood, Knuble, McCarty, Dan McGillis, Tomas Holmström, Mathieu Dandenault.

That kind of draft record makes team as contenders. 17 hits in 7 years - That shows a great scouting director.

Nill & McDonell got 5 hits in 18 years. ****ing horrible.

When Holland was the scouting Director, our team was gushing full of North American Talent. Then there was DARK TWO DECADES from 1995 to 2013, with Nill & McDonell on change. And it dropped us from position after 2009, when there was not anymore enough cheap and great prospects to bring in.

Under salary cap, you need them year-after-year, if you are competitive team, because salary comparables push the prices up, and you need to let something go. We didn't have these propects and that's why Holland went with plan B bringing in cheap UFA veterans. It was the only, (unliked scenario in here), to keep the team somewhat competitive.

Now Tyrler Wright has done superb job for our NA drafting instantly when he came in as new scouting director. We have now great talent from both North America (Larkin, Mantha etc.) and from Europe (Andersson-draftees).

Future looks bright again, because Kenny found better people on the right positions. Again, he did find the right people and saved our future.


Last edited by SoupNazi: 04-04-2016 at 08:12 PM.
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Old
04-04-2016, 10:28 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Reddwit View Post
Uhh wtf? Holland isn't a machine. He didn't just reach peak GMing and never falter. The rules of the game changed with the salary cap and then he averaged out. Nothing special anymore. It's no different than Zetterberg or Lidstrom losing several steps. Are we not true fans because we recognize when a member of the organization is no longer elite? What a crock. I could just as easily say that being so invested in a team that you are aware of all the intricacies of their transactions, and therefore can ferret out the mistakes, makes you a "true" fan, whatever that means.
I would say Ken Holland didn't scout Zetterberg, but had the brain trust who did. I would also say Detroit's drafting hasn't been as good as it was back then.

So Ken Holland re-stocked some brain trust with Tyler Wright who scouted Larkin. Too early to say, but looks like Ken Holland goes to the root of the problem and finds the talent that helps keeps the machine going.

Bottom line, if you're not drafting 1st and 2nd overall in the salary cap world, then you're never going to be a playoff threat. That's parity for you.

But I do like what Ken Holland is doing with getting guys like Tyler Wright that helps him find the Larkin's of the world.

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04-05-2016, 01:20 AM
  #55
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Yep. Our North American scouts kind of killed us

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Old
04-05-2016, 03:01 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
I remember, I did cap calculations for that Hossa vs. Franzen scenarios and it was very difficult to have that Hossa 5.2M on the roster instead of 3.9M Mule. At least one 5-man unit should have been changed to unproven prospects or carbage UFAs with minimun salaries. That would have been a worse team.

Economy crisis at 2008 and cap standing pat for 2009-10 +our biggest extensions after succes (Zetterberg raise after 2009, Franzen raise after 2009) killed our cap situation and also this Hossa situation. Period. There was no room. Period.

People haven't ever shown any kind of real plan to build a roster with Hossa instead of Franzen. Just trash-talking not based on any facts.

As we see more of our drafting results from past years, our biggest problems have been Jim Nill & Joe McDonell as our scouting directors. Their abysmal North Amrican drafting has been our biggest problem, when we needed new young talent on the roster.

When these two guys have been our scouting directors (Nill from 1995 to 2003, McDonell from 2004 to 2012), almost every good prospect has been European scouted gem by Håkan Andersson. Best North American draftees during 18 years were Kyle Quincey, Jimmy Howard, Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm and Jiri Fischer. That's it. Andersson also had influence for that Fischer-pick which was the best one.

During same era, Andersson picked Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Filppula, Hudler, Fleischmann, Kopecky, Ericsson, Franzen, Tatar, Nyquist, Järnkrok, Janmark, Mrazek etc. Unbelieveable record. Just like Ken Holland record when he was our scouting director from 1988 to 1994. We picked up great talent every year. Sheldon Kennedy, Mike Sillinger, Bob Boughner, Lidström. Fedorov, Drake, Konstantinov, Keith Primeau, Kozlov, Jason York, Lapointe, Osgood, Knuble, McCarty, Dan McGillis, Tomas Holmström, Mathieu Dandenault.

That kind of draft record makes team as contenders. 17 hits in 7 years - That shows a great scouting director.

Nill & McDonell got 5 hits in 18 years. ****ing horrible.

When Holland was the scouting Director, our team was gushing full of North American Talent. Then there was DARK TWO DECADES from 1995 to 2013, with Nill & McDonell on change. And it dropped us from position after 2009, when there was not anymore enough cheap and great prospects to bring in.

Under salary cap, you need them year-after-year, if you are competitive team, because salary comparables push the prices up, and you need to let something go. We didn't have these propects and that's why Holland went with plan B bringing in cheap UFA veterans. It was the only, (unliked scenario in here), to keep the team somewhat competitive.

Now Tyrler Wright has done superb job for our NA drafting instantly when he came in as new scouting director. We have now great talent from both North America (Larkin, Mantha etc.) and from Europe (Andersson-draftees).

Future looks bright again, because Kenny found better people on the right positions. Again, he did find the right people and saved our future.
Very nice write up

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Old
04-05-2016, 10:27 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
I remember, I did cap calculations for that Hossa vs. Franzen scenarios and it was very difficult to have that Hossa 5.2M on the roster instead of 3.9M Mule. At least one 5-man unit should have been changed to unproven prospects or carbage UFAs with minimun salaries. That would have been a worse team.

Economy crisis at 2008 and cap standing pat for 2009-10 +our biggest extensions after succes (Zetterberg raise after 2009, Franzen raise after 2009) killed our cap situation and also this Hossa situation. Period. There was no room. Period.

People haven't ever shown any kind of real plan to build a roster with Hossa instead of Franzen. Just trash-talking not based on any facts.

As we see more of our drafting results from past years, our biggest problems have been Jim Nill & Joe McDonell as our scouting directors. Their abysmal North Amrican drafting has been our biggest problem, when we needed new young talent on the roster.

When these two guys have been our scouting directors (Nill from 1995 to 2003, McDonell from 2004 to 2012), almost every good prospect has been European scouted gem by Håkan Andersson. Best North American draftees during 18 years were Kyle Quincey, Jimmy Howard, Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm and Jiri Fischer. That's it. Andersson also had influence for that Fischer-pick which was the best one.

During same era, Andersson picked Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Filppula, Hudler, Fleischmann, Kopecky, Ericsson, Franzen, Tatar, Nyquist, Järnkrok, Janmark, Mrazek etc. Unbelieveable record. Just like Ken Holland record when he was our scouting director from 1988 to 1994. We picked up great talent every year. Sheldon Kennedy, Mike Sillinger, Bob Boughner, Lidström. Fedorov, Drake, Konstantinov, Keith Primeau, Kozlov, Jason York, Lapointe, Osgood, Knuble, McCarty, Dan McGillis, Tomas Holmström, Mathieu Dandenault.

That kind of draft record makes team as contenders. 17 hits in 7 years - That shows a great scouting director.

Nill & McDonell got 5 hits in 18 years. ****ing horrible.

When Holland was the scouting Director, our team was gushing full of North American Talent. Then there was DARK TWO DECADES from 1995 to 2013, with Nill & McDonell on change. And it dropped us from position after 2009, when there was not anymore enough cheap and great prospects to bring in.

Under salary cap, you need them year-after-year, if you are competitive team, because salary comparables push the prices up, and you need to let something go. We didn't have these propects and that's why Holland went with plan B bringing in cheap UFA veterans. It was the only, (unliked scenario in here), to keep the team somewhat competitive.

Now Tyrler Wright has done superb job for our NA drafting instantly when he came in as new scouting director. We have now great talent from both North America (Larkin, Mantha etc.) and from Europe (Andersson-draftees).

Future looks bright again, because Kenny found better people on the right positions. Again, he did find the right people and saved our future.
excellent post. didn't realize how bad nill's drafting record was with detroit

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Old
04-06-2016, 12:24 AM
  #58
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excellent post. didn't realize how bad nill's drafting record was with detroit
After he left you could notice. Larkin especially

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04-06-2016, 07:34 AM
  #59
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kenny wasn't our scouting director when we picked lidström, fedorov and konstantinov.

don't know why henkka keeps repeating that crap. i've posted numerous articles in the past where even kenny himself says he was western scout at the time. neil smith was the director of scouting in the lidström draft.


also mantha was nill/mcdonnell pick. tyler wright wasn't even employed by the red wings at the 2013 draft.

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04-06-2016, 07:54 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by InjuredChoker View Post
kenny wasn't our scouting director when we picked lidström, fedorov and konstantinov.

don't know why henkka keeps repeating that crap. i've posted numerous articles in the past where even kenny himself says he was western scout at the time. neil smith was the director of scouting in the lidström draft.


also mantha was nill/mcdonnell pick. tyler wright wasn't even employed by the red wings at the 2013 draft.
I wasn't sure when Tyler came into the picture. So we can only confirm he is on Larkin?

Anyone else later in the draft? Maybe Dominic Turgeon?

He was part of good picks in Columbus too, wasn't he?

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04-06-2016, 09:09 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by InjuredChoker View Post
kenny wasn't our scouting director when we picked lidström, fedorov and konstantinov.

don't know why henkka keeps repeating that crap. i've posted numerous articles in the past where even kenny himself says he was western scout at the time. neil smith was the director of scouting in the lidström draft.


also mantha was nill/mcdonnell pick. tyler wright wasn't even employed by the red wings at the 2013 draft.
Also thought it was pretty much public knowledge that Rockstrom was responsible for the discovery/drafting of Lidstrom.

https://www.nhl.com/news/lidstrom-we...ceman/c-786078

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04-06-2016, 10:17 AM
  #62
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I wasn't sure when Tyler came into the picture. So we can only confirm he is on Larkin?

Anyone else later in the draft? Maybe Dominic Turgeon?

He was part of good picks in Columbus too, wasn't he?
teams rarely open up and reveal who and how much were they responsible for certain picks.

he shared a head scout role in columbus and they did made good picks but it's hard to say how much say he had in those. maybe a lot, maybe not so much. jackets wanted him to take a lesser role (iirc it wasn't even in amateur scouting) so he left and we got him.

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04-06-2016, 10:22 AM
  #63
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so one pick(larkin) = a superb job?

huh

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04-06-2016, 10:34 AM
  #64
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so one pick(larkin) = a superb job?

huh
Would you rather have Julius Honka?

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04-06-2016, 10:35 AM
  #65
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I wasn't sure when Tyler came into the picture. So we can only confirm he is on Larkin?

Anyone else later in the draft? Maybe Dominic Turgeon?

He was part of good picks in Columbus too, wasn't he?
Sometimes they make it public when one person was heavily responsible for a guy being drafted. I know that for example, Draper was primarily responsible for drafting Tyler Bertuzzi.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....r_bertu_2.html

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04-06-2016, 01:21 PM
  #66
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Also thought it was pretty much public knowledge that Rockstrom was responsible for the discovery/drafting of Lidstrom.

https://www.nhl.com/news/lidstrom-we...ceman/c-786078
God I love that story. Almost as good as the Russian abduction stories.

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04-06-2016, 02:27 PM
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Would you rather have Julius Honka?
i dont think thats what i said

usually though a "superb" job means more than one article of evidence

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04-06-2016, 07:59 PM
  #68
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so one pick(larkin) = a superb job?

huh
Well it's better then smith. Kindl.

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04-21-2016, 09:46 AM
  #69
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i dont think thats what i said

usually though a "superb" job means more than one article of evidence
I agree, but there has been a noticable uptick in the quality of our NA picks the past couple years. I don't see us ever drafting a Larkin or Mantha in the late 2000s.

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04-21-2016, 10:18 PM
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2008 is when Kenny lost his touch with that gross Mule resigning to lifetime contract. good for Mule (who I like as a player and as a Instagram legend).
Notice Nill traded with Boston to get Tyler Seguin! Nill could be our GM right now if Illich wasn't spending all his time on face lifts.
I would like to see the Wings sign Jim Nill to be GM. Nill is a better GM than Holland.

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04-21-2016, 10:20 PM
  #71
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Let's look at the Red Wings team Holland has built.

The Wings have two competent goalies, but not a single championship caliber goalie.

The Wings do not have a single stud defenseman. Smith? Chronic underachiever. Not an elite defender, and a mediocre offensive defenseman, which was supposed to be his strength. Holland used a no. 1 pick on Smith. Sheesh! Green? Not an elite defender, but a very good offensive defenseman. The rest of the defenseman are solid but unspectacular. Notice that Holland acquired the Wings best defenseman via free agency, not the draft. Holland does not know how to build a championship team through the draft in the salary cap era.

The wings two top forwards are still Zetterberg and Datsyuk, both of whom are veterans who are in the twilight of their careers. Tatar and Nyquist are solid complementary players but not stars in their own right, and that is based on production. They produce like mediocre players, so they are mediocre players. (45 and 43 points, respectively) Larkin is a true star, but Larkin is the only true star Holland has produced in the salary cap era, and even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

Holland drafted Abdelkader when he could have taken Oshie. Excuse me? Gater is a great grinder, and that's just about all. He's a big body, but not a great hockey player. Holland drafted Sheahan in the first round. What? Sheahan is a journeyman. 25 points from a first round pick? Seriously? Franzen hasn't played a full season in 3 years. Holland signed Franzen when he could have signed Hossa. That was a mistake. How could he have known, you ask? Hey, that's what a GM is supposed to do. He is supposed to sign the right guy. Holland signed the wrong guy.

This is what Holland has to show for the better part of a decade. It is a record of mediocrity, not of an elite GM.

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04-21-2016, 10:24 PM
  #72
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Let's look at the Red Wings team Holland has built.

The Wings have two competent goalies, but not a single championship caliber goalie.

The Wings do not have a single stud defenseman. Smith? Chronic underachiever. Not an elite defender, and a mediocre offensive defenseman, which was supposed to be his strength. Holland used a no. 1 pick on Smith. Sheesh! Green? Not an elite defender, but a very good offensive defenseman. The rest of the defenseman are solid but unspectacular. Notice that Holland acquired the Wings best defenseman via free agency, not the draft. Holland does not know how to build a championship team through the draft in the salary cap era.

The wings two top forwards are still Zetterberg and Datsyuk, both of whom are veterans who are in the twilight of their careers. Tatar and Nyquist are solid complementary players but not stars in their own right, and that is based on production. They produce like mediocre players, so they are mediocre players. (45 and 43 points, respectively) Larkin is a true star, but Larkin is the only true star Holland has produced in the salary cap era, and even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

Holland drafted Abdelkader when he could have taken Oshie. Excuse me? Gater is a great grinder, and that's just about all. He's a big body, but not a great hockey player. Holland drafted Sheahan in the first round. What? Sheahan is a journeyman. 25 points from a first round pick? Seriously? Franzen hasn't played a full season in 3 years. Holland signed Franzen when he could have signed Hossa. That was a mistake. How could he have known, you ask? Hey, that's what a GM is supposed to do. He is supposed to sign the right guy. Holland signed the wrong guy.

This is what Holland has to show for the better part of a decade. It is a record of mediocrity, not of an elite GM.

Mrazek is champ caliber. Look at his playoff stats

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04-21-2016, 10:31 PM
  #73
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Mrazek is champ caliber. Look at his playoff stats
Mrazek tied for 13th in the league in goals against average and tied for 10th in the league in save percentage, which is hardly championship caliber. It's good enough to win with a very strong team in front of you, but not good enough to steal a series.

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04-21-2016, 11:20 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by A1Portable View Post
Mrazek tied for 13th in the league in goals against average and tied for 10th in the league in save percentage, which is hardly championship caliber. It's good enough to win with a very strong team in front of you, but not good enough to steal a series.
4 goals over 3 games is pretty close to champ level. He did everything but win the games single-handedly

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04-22-2016, 12:43 AM
  #75
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Mrazek tied for 13th in the league in goals against average and tied for 10th in the league in save percentage, which is hardly championship caliber. It's good enough to win with a very strong team in front of you, but not good enough to steal a series.
And yet for a couple weeks he could have won the vezina. One bad month on a bad team is gonna drop your stats like a rock. And this is his first full nhl season

You can ignore what I said. Look at his playoff stats. That's champ level. Look at his play. Champ level. And that's on a bad team

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