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Old
05-11-2016, 07:17 AM
  #51
RandyHolt
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Barry fumbled Orlov this year. His strength was his offense, and Barry dialed that back presumed so he could do better defensively. The thing is, the things he needed to get better at in the DZone, were not related to him abandoning his post to be the proverbial 4th forward etc. He is just not polished defensively, not unusual for a young offensive guy. He needed coaching up but a solid assistant coach. Our 4-8 Dmen sucked. Compare them to Pitts - it was night and day. At minimum we need a new assistant on the back end before jettisoning Orlov for a freaking pick.

Barry took away what he does best, had him not trying to score, and he looked lost pretty much the last 2-3 months of the season.

Orlov has obvious talent and skills, but Barry's offense did not use them, for it does not involve grinding away at opposition defensemen, aka, our ES offense.

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05-11-2016, 07:20 AM
  #52
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He's not a top 4 defenseman. He is just not. Getting a 1st round pick for him in a trade is a joke.
Eminger got us a 1st (Carlson) it's not a joke

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05-11-2016, 07:39 AM
  #53
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He's not a top 4 defenseman. He is just not. Getting a 1st round pick for him in a trade is a joke.
There are a lot of teams where he could be a TOP4 D.

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05-11-2016, 07:47 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
Eminger got us a 1st (Carlson) it's not a joke
Eminger and a 3rd for a late 1st. Yes. Would Orlov and a 3rd get the Caps the 27th pick in the first round. Maybe.

Also, lets try and remember that trade is up there in the Forsberg for Erat level of a bad trade.

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05-11-2016, 08:27 AM
  #55
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I still suspect he should be a forward. He'd have speed and size, a two-way game and he can do his creative but risky offence with two Ds behind him...
A forward without hockey IQ isn't better than a defenceman.

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05-11-2016, 08:43 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
He was a 2nd round pick and we developed him into a top 4 scoring D man. Tortz may not like him, but lots of stat fancy people love him (twabby). Don't sell him short bc one bad postseason. If we did that we should also trade Kuz for a couple picks
I mean I just don't see the point in seeking out a trade with him. If Edmonton comes calling and says hey we'll give you RNH for Orlov and some picks then sure consider it. But after this postseason his salary demands are likely to be very low and it's silly to think he doesn't have any upside.

Give him another year or two. No improvement? Move on. At this very moment Orlov is a more than capable 5/6D, and he's only played like 2 full NHL seasons.

If you're looking for someone to ship out for peanuts, then ship out Orpik because the dude has been playing for like 15 years and he cost the Capitals this series, unlike Orlov. He's only going to get worse.

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05-11-2016, 09:08 AM
  #57
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Orlov has arbitration rights and is two years away from UFA potentially. He's not necessarily going to be cheap. Hell, just factoring in a likely expansion draft puts him in a questionable position. He's also a Gandler client, right?

To me Orlov has neither the physical nor the mental tools to be a consistent top four defenseman and if they can get a similarly young third-line forward or something I'd certainly consider it. Their D depth isn't going to be exceptional either way and he would probably benefit by playing in a system that's less reliant on effort and more on crisp team play.

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05-11-2016, 09:10 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
So you think a team like EDM wouldn't give a package better then a 2nd for him? We gave a 3rd for 7 games of Webber...
Although TDL trades are often highly over-inflated. It also requires both teams to be genuinely interested in the trade. I don't know what we have that we'd be willing to part with that we could package with Orlov to get the #4 pick.

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05-11-2016, 09:26 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by HecticGlow View Post
Although TDL trades are often highly over-inflated. It also requires both teams to be genuinely interested in the trade. I don't know what we have that we'd be willing to part with that we could package with Orlov to get the #4 pick.
The #4 pick for Orlov is a Xbox trade, but a Desperate team for D like EDM would surely offer more then late picks for Orlov.

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05-11-2016, 09:46 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
Barry fumbled Orlov this year. His strength was his offense, and Barry dialed that back presumed so he could do better defensively. The thing is, the things he needed to get better at in the DZone, were not related to him abandoning his post to be the proverbial 4th forward etc. He is just not polished defensively, not unusual for a young offensive guy. He needed coaching up but a solid assistant coach. Our 4-8 Dmen sucked. Compare them to Pitts - it was night and day. At minimum we need a new assistant on the back end before jettisoning Orlov for a freaking pick.

Barry took away what he does best, had him not trying to score, and he looked lost pretty much the last 2-3 months of the season.

Orlov has obvious talent and skills, but Barry's offense did not use them, for it does not involve grinding away at opposition defensemen, aka, our ES offense.
Randy, a defenseman's first role is you know DEFENSE. Orlov got his own leash shortened by absolutely stunning and maddening defensive blunders. He's lucky he played a playoff game at all honestly. Orlov would be great on a team with zero expectations. Here, he stands out as a mental midget in his own zone.

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05-11-2016, 09:47 AM
  #61
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i highly doubt a defensively bad EDM franchise would be interested in a defensively bad young dman. They just shipped out Schultz who looks like a solid NHL caliber dman on the stacked PIT team.

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05-11-2016, 09:51 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by twabby View Post
I mean I just don't see the point in seeking out a trade with him. If Edmonton comes calling and says hey we'll give you RNH for Orlov and some picks then sure consider it. But after this postseason his salary demands are likely to be very low and it's silly to think he doesn't have any upside.

Give him another year or two. No improvement? Move on. At this very moment Orlov is a more than capable 5/6D, and he's only played like 2 full NHL seasons.

If you're looking for someone to ship out for peanuts, then ship out Orpik because the dude has been playing for like 15 years and he cost the Capitals this series, unlike Orlov. He's only going to get worse.
His demands will be VERY low? I think you're in for a rude awakening. The KHL will keep his salary demands pretty high. For a young D getting limited ice time, and putting up solid goal/points, it's not like he's going to be a bargain signing. I would listen to offers all day long. If none are good, then keep him another year. Expecting RNH is absurd. You wanna bash Orpik, I have no issue with it, but you don't even need the same critical eye to see Orlov is atrocious in his own end and a severe liability in the playoffs.

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05-11-2016, 09:52 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
Eminger and a 3rd for a late 1st. Yes. Would Orlov and a 3rd get the Caps the 27th pick in the first round. Maybe.

Also, lets try and remember that trade is up there in the Forsberg for Erat level of a bad trade.
ONLY because of what that pick turned into. 90% of the time, that player isn't a stud D. Caps got lucky/did their homework.

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05-11-2016, 10:11 AM
  #64
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His demands will be VERY low? I think you're in for a rude awakening. The KHL will keep his salary demands pretty high. For a young D getting limited ice time, and putting up solid goal/points, it's not like he's going to be a bargain signing. I would listen to offers all day long. If none are good, then keep him another year. Expecting RNH is absurd. You wanna bash Orpik, I have no issue with it, but you don't even need the same critical eye to see Orlov is atrocious in his own end and a severe liability in the playoffs.
I'm not expecting RNH, never said that. He's an RFA and it's kind of unfair to assume that he will go to the KHL simply because he is Russian. A little xenophobic even. He cannot command much of a salary after the way this season ended.

With regards to Orpik and Orlov: who hurt the team more this series? If you say Orlov you are out of your mind. Orlov made a few mistakes but Orpik actively sabotaged his team with ill-time penalties and a suspension that was well deserved.

The difference between the two (aside from about $3M against the cap) is that there is a reasonable expectation that Orlov could get better, whereas Orpik is certainly only getting worse with age. Orpik was signed to be a top 4 defenseman and he has failed miserably in that role. Orlov was expected to be a third pairing D this postseason and circumstances (including Orpik's selfish suspension) forced him into a role he shouldn't have been in.

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05-11-2016, 10:20 AM
  #65
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The russian hockey system after Konstantinov and Zubov doesn't produce young elite dmen. They are very raw and have a lot of glaring holes in their game. Some of them are uncorrectable because many facets are missed in childhood. Many russian dmen are former forwards, and Orly is one of them. He can be a legit NHL dman but that's his ceiling. Too many missed aspects in his development in childhood and youth to become a true top material. And he got granted a spot on the World cup roster. I don't know how they are going to win the cup with such disastrous defense.

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05-11-2016, 10:28 AM
  #66
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Pointless to try and separate Orpik and Orlov blunders in these playoffs, imo. Both were generally bad.

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05-11-2016, 10:37 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Randy, a defenseman's first role is you know DEFENSE. Orlov got his own leash shortened by absolutely stunning and maddening defensive blunders. He's lucky he played a playoff game at all honestly. Orlov would be great on a team with zero expectations. Here, he stands out as a mental midget in his own zone.
Agree... but with one retort. All year, he largely offset his mistakes in the DZone, but having a direct hand in points. He brought his offense without any time on the power play. Nothing to scoff at.

He clearly was told to no longer lead/join the rush about 2 months ago, after a few bad goals against. With Barry doing so, his direct hand in goals to offset his gaffe's was neutralized, and thus he became a liability.

All young offensive Dmen have to be put into offensive situations until they find their feet. Orlov is nothing new, only he doesn't get PP time. Eminger, Green, Carlson (who had his fair share of issues/turnovers), Orlov, Bowey is next up.

He has not had a steady Eddie (Brooks was injured / is a mess himself), was moved from R to L and back again, and had his wings clipped. Coaching is not above scrutiny with him.

It certainly looked like our 4-8 D all sucked this playoffs. Can we look at how they were coached, and what they were asked to do.... I feel like Orlov is getting singled out when Chorney and Schmidt were worse. Orlov actually looked decent the last few games, albeit in his sheltered role.

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05-11-2016, 10:53 AM
  #68
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Pointless to try and separate Orpik and Orlov blunders in these playoffs, imo. Both were generally bad.
It's worth it to figure out what to do going forward. Orlov can get better. Maybe he won't, but it's surely possible. His mistakes were mainly due to being thrust into a role he wasn't ready for (caused mainly by Orpik's suspension). At the very least he showed enough during the regular season that he should get at least another year to see what he really has.

Orpik, on the other hand, was brought in to be a top 4 defenseman with leadership and intangibles that were supposed to help the team. Instead he acts completely selfish and reckless the entire series when the team counts on him the most and forces guys like Orlov, Schmidt, Chorney, and Weber into more prominent roles. Seems like the opposite of leadership to me. Not only that, but his on-ice talents suck too and will only get worse. You can't get rid of him soon enough.

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05-11-2016, 12:00 PM
  #69
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I'm not expecting RNH, never said that. He's an RFA and it's kind of unfair to assume that he will go to the KHL simply because he is Russian. A little xenophobic even. He cannot command much of a salary after the way this season ended.

With regards to Orpik and Orlov: who hurt the team more this series? If you say Orlov you are out of your mind. Orlov made a few mistakes but Orpik actively sabotaged his team with ill-time penalties and a suspension that was well deserved.

The difference between the two (aside from about $3M against the cap) is that there is a reasonable expectation that Orlov could get better, whereas Orpik is certainly only getting worse with age. Orpik was signed to be a top 4 defenseman and he has failed miserably in that role. Orlov was expected to be a third pairing D this postseason and circumstances (including Orpik's selfish suspension) forced him into a role he shouldn't have been in.
Oh please stop with the idiotic xenophobia. I find it offensive and a weak minded argument honestly. My favorite player is, you know, 8, who happens to be Russian. The KHL is a very real option and will be used by his agent as a fallback option when negotiating. You'll see on his salary when if/when he's signed. He won't be cheap.

Who hurt more? Having a 3rd pair you could barely ice hurts quite a bit. Orpik was out 3 games and took a bad penalty in two others. Orpik is leaned on more heavily. It's a toss up IMO. Not having a viable 3rd pair means you have to grind the top 4 more which caused guys like Alzner to break down. Cause and effect.

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05-11-2016, 12:01 PM
  #70
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Pointless to try and separate Orpik and Orlov blunders in these playoffs, imo. Both were generally bad.
That's why I went with a toss up.

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05-11-2016, 12:04 PM
  #71
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The russian hockey system after Konstantinov and Zubov doesn't produce young elite dmen. They are very raw and have a lot of glaring holes in their game. Some of them are uncorrectable because many facets are missed in childhood. Many russian dmen are former forwards, and Orly is one of them. He can be a legit NHL dman but that's his ceiling. Too many missed aspects in his development in childhood and youth to become a true top material. And he got granted a spot on the World cup roster. I don't know how they are going to win the cup with such disastrous defense.
This is what I fear. He's got limited upside based on his development path.

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05-11-2016, 12:10 PM
  #72
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Agree... but with one retort. All year, he largely offset his mistakes in the DZone, but having a direct hand in points. He brought his offense without any time on the power play. Nothing to scoff at.

He clearly was told to no longer lead/join the rush about 2 months ago, after a few bad goals against. With Barry doing so, his direct hand in goals to offset his gaffe's was neutralized, and thus he became a liability.

All young offensive Dmen have to be put into offensive situations until they find their feet. Orlov is nothing new, only he doesn't get PP time. Eminger, Green, Carlson (who had his fair share of issues/turnovers), Orlov, Bowey is next up.

He has not had a steady Eddie (Brooks was injured / is a mess himself), was moved from R to L and back again, and had his wings clipped. Coaching is not above scrutiny with him.

It certainly looked like our 4-8 D all sucked this playoffs. Can we look at how they were coached, and what they were asked to do.... I feel like Orlov is getting singled out when Chorney and Schmidt were worse. Orlov actually looked decent the last few games, albeit in his sheltered role.
I get why you're saying but the playoffs are a different beast. They'll never turn him lose like you're suggesting to attempt to maximize his potential. Probably a decent reason to listen to offers and move on from him. I think Bowey will surpass him quickly when he's promoted.

Chorney and Schmidt don't carry the same expectations as cheap free agent signings, but as far as I'm concerned, none of the group are good enough for a Cup winner. Hell, apparently not good enough to get out of the 2nd round.

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05-11-2016, 01:22 PM
  #73
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I get why you're saying but the playoffs are a different beast. They'll never turn him lose like you're suggesting to attempt to maximize his potential. Probably a decent reason to listen to offers and move on from him. I think Bowey will surpass him quickly when he's promoted.

Chorney and Schmidt don't carry the same expectations as cheap free agent signings, but as far as I'm concerned, none of the group are good enough for a Cup winner. Hell, apparently not good enough to get out of the 2nd round.
Yeah - good points. He was dialed back offensively long before the playoffs started, and maybe it got inside his head - don't be a minus. He definitely looked a headcase.

I think Bowey next year in our lineup, will bit very much like Orlov was, from what little I have seen from him.

I am still amazed that Pitts collective Dman largely embarrassed ours. I heard all year how their defense was going to suck. And how great Chorney and Schmidt were.

It turns out, our D sucked. Who knew. I agree with Langway in hindsight that Ness pinch hitting for 17 minutes (Weber's TOI) should have been able to save us a pick. And maybe even Bowey could have "adrenahelped" as well, when it became clear Barry was drawing names out of a hat for his bottom pair and that 3RD. Barry lost confidence in 4 dmen and their games showed it.


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05-11-2016, 01:32 PM
  #74
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Yeah - good points. He was dialed back offensively long before the playoffs started, and maybe it got inside his head - don't be a minus. He definitely looked a headcase.

I think Bowey next year in our lineup, will bit very much like Orlov was, from what little I have seen from him.

I am still amazed that Pitts collective Dman largely embarrassed ours. I heard all year how their defense was going to suck. And how great Chorney and Schmidt were.

It turns out, our D sucked. Who knew. I agree with Langway in hindsight that Ness pinch hitting for 17 minutes (Weber's TOI) should have been able to save us a pick. And maybe even Bowey could have "adrenahelped" as well, when it became clear Barry was drawing names out of a hat for his bottom pair and that 3RD. Barry lost confidence in 4 dmen and their games showed it.
how does the draft expansion figure into things? if we were to rush bowey into play only to have him plucked away come expension

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05-11-2016, 01:43 PM
  #75
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how does the draft expansion figure into things? if we were to rush bowey into play only to have him plucked away come expension
I think Bowey would have to be exempt... dunno.

I wonder now if Orlov would be risked / sacrificed for the expansion after his seemingly falling out of favor with Barry to the point he got benched and then scratched.

To me, I have suspected it would come down to Orlov or Wilson, if we were going to lose anyone with value. Maybe someone takes Orpik off our hands to meet the floor but otherwise think him being taken is more a pipe dream.

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