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Old
12-02-2005, 05:25 PM
  #1
GKJ
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OT: Ouellet traded to Vancouver

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp...24&hubName=nhl


for a 5th round pick.



I guess we lucked out a bit

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12-02-2005, 05:30 PM
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the trade was still terrible, at the time, ouellet had so much value

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12-02-2005, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Flyers_
the trade was still terrible, at the time, ouellet had so much value
Hardly.

Considering that the Flyers top two centers went down in one game and they had no timetable on their return, the Flyers hands were tied. Clarke brought in one of the better playmakers in the game, for picks, who as of today have done nothing at the NHL level. As of right now, you can't even legitimately say Washington "won" the trade until they can produce an NHL player out of it.

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12-02-2005, 05:39 PM
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I remember Clarke on the news after that deal saying that they thought Frank was the better prospect and that it wouldn't hurt their goaltending for the future....looks like he was correct.

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12-02-2005, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersGuy69
I remember Clarke on the news after that deal saying that they thought Frank was the better prospect and that it wouldn't hurt their goaltending for the future....looks like he was correct.

I agreed with him at the time (although I didn't think it was a good trade)


What was the difference: Nittymaki has played with men, had been successful and knows how to win. Won an SM-liiga championship and a Calder Cup. Was the MVP in both playoffs. The man knows how to win it just depends how long it takes to figure it out.

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12-02-2005, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Flyers_
the trade was still terrible, at the time, ouellet had so much value

How much trade value does a goalie, who "at the time" hadn't even established himself as an adequate backup, have in this League?

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12-02-2005, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerFan
How much trade value does a goalie, who "at the time" hadn't even established himself as an adequate backup, have in this League?
Ouellet did have alot of trade value. at the time, he was one of the hottest goalie prospects out there. just about every scout in hockey had this guy pegged to be a legit #1 NHL goaltender.

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12-02-2005, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersGuy69
I remember Clarke on the news after that deal saying that they thought Frank was the better prospect and that it wouldn't hurt their goaltending for the future....looks like he was correct.
It's mistifying... maybe someone saw "bust" written all over him.

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12-02-2005, 10:34 PM
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Maybe it would be more accurate to say that Ouellet "seemed" to have a lot of value, at the time.

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12-02-2005, 10:46 PM
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WHy dont you just chalk it up to Washington not knowing how to develope anyone properly???

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12-02-2005, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersGuy69
Ouellet did have alot of trade value. at the time, he was one of the hottest goalie prospects out there. just about every scout in hockey had this guy pegged to be a legit #1 NHL goaltender.

well, cosnidering Oates did **** all for us in hte playoffs that year....clarke and the staff probably could have drafted some good players with those picks. but when i look to see what we could have gotten with those picks, it isnt much, not many of the players beyond the 1st round have even played in the nhl yet

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12-03-2005, 04:18 AM
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In 2004-05, Ouellet posted a goals-against average of 2.89 and a record of 15-20-3 in 40 games with the AHL Portland Pirates.

Ouellet has played in eight career NHL games with Philadelphia and Washington, recording one shutout and a goals-against average of 2.99.

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12-03-2005, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Flyers_
well, cosnidering Oates did **** all for us in hte playoffs that year....clarke and the staff probably could have drafted some good players with those picks. but when i look to see what we could have gotten with those picks, it isnt much, not many of the players beyond the 1st round have even played in the nhl yet

it was a weak draft and the Flyers had some extra picks. They used them to get Pitkanen. The Caps traded one of the picks to get Semin, Dallas drafted Martin Vagner (went back in the draft), and the Caps drafted Maxime Daigneault (another goalie---when they already had Ouellet and Stana) and Derek Krestonavich (yes..who?).


Ouellet did nothing but struggle. The Caps only kept calling him up because they had nothing to lose.

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12-03-2005, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Flyers_
the trade was still terrible, at the time, ouellet had so much value
Getting the guy who was leading the league in assists (and it wasn't a fluke season) was pretty good value.

Once again, for all the talk of trading away young talent, there aren't two players Clarke dealt away that you can say this team could really use. Ruslan Fedotenko is the only one I can think of, and no one would undo that deal. (I made a thread on this a while back but I guess it was lost in the nuke.)

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12-04-2005, 03:37 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
Getting the guy who was leading the league in assists (and it wasn't a fluke season) was pretty good value.

Once again, for all the talk of trading away young talent, there aren't two players Clarke dealt away that you can say this team could really use. Ruslan Fedotenko is the only one I can think of, and no one would undo that deal. (I made a thread on this a while back but I guess it was lost in the nuke.)
Once more, you're looking back on the trade NOW and suggesting it wasn't bad.

The simple fact is that back AT THE TIME, the trade by Philly was absolutely horrendous. It doesn't matter if they had another goalie like Niitymaki that was going to be coming up, it doesn't matter if they had extra picks...

to RENT Adam Oates (and this takes nothing away from him, he has been one of the best set-up men around, period) for the rest of the year and the playoffs, they gave up a top goalie prospect plus all of those picks. It doesn't matter if Ouellet can never be traded for more than a bag of pucks in the future. AT THE TIME, he had a lot of trade value, he was one of those "sure fire" #1 goalies... it wasn't a matter of "perceived value" he DID have a lot of value back then. Today? Obviously not... but when you look at past trades, you have to see if they made sense back then... not now.

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12-04-2005, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
Once more, you're looking back on the trade NOW and suggesting it wasn't bad.

The simple fact is that back AT THE TIME, the trade by Philly was absolutely horrendous. It doesn't matter if they had another goalie like Niitymaki that was going to be coming up, it doesn't matter if they had extra picks...

to RENT Adam Oates (and this takes nothing away from him, he has been one of the best set-up men around, period) for the rest of the year and the playoffs, they gave up a top goalie prospect plus all of those picks. It doesn't matter if Ouellet can never be traded for more than a bag of pucks in the future. AT THE TIME, he had a lot of trade value, he was one of those "sure fire" #1 goalies... it wasn't a matter of "perceived value" he DID have a lot of value back then. Today? Obviously not... but when you look at past trades, you have to see if they made sense back then... not now.
You're looking back on the trade too. The Flyers acquired Oates and probably thought that he would have been staying a little bit longer. They had some NHL ready goalies and like other Flyer teams, it was now or never. Giving up a wildcard for the best playmaker at the time only could help the Flyers on their way to the cup. Unfortunately everything fell in on the deal and should be considered a wash.

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12-04-2005, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
Once more, you're looking back on the trade NOW and suggesting it wasn't bad.

The simple fact is that back AT THE TIME, the trade by Philly was absolutely horrendous. It doesn't matter if they had another goalie like Niitymaki that was going to be coming up, it doesn't matter if they had extra picks...
At the time, no one knew when Roenick and Primeau would return from injury. The Flyers were left with Marty Murray and Jiri Dopita at center. They *had* to make a move.

Quote:
to RENT Adam Oates (and this takes nothing away from him, he has been one of the best set-up men around, period) for the rest of the year and the playoffs, they gave up a top goalie prospect plus all of those picks. It doesn't matter if Ouellet can never be traded for more than a bag of pucks in the future.
And other teams wanted him too. And yes it does matter if he can never be traded for more than a bag of pucks in the future. If that's the case, you need to trade him when his value is at it's highest.

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AT THE TIME, he had a lot of trade value, he was one of those "sure fire" #1 goalies...
No he wasn't. He had that ceiling, but he was not "sure fire."

Quote:
it wasn't a matter of "perceived value" he DID have a lot of value back then.
And like I said, they got a lot of value back.

Quote:
Today? Obviously not... but when you look at past trades, you have to see if they made sense back then... not now.
No, you have to do both. You can't evaluate trades just on the day they are made, especially when they involve prospects and picks.

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12-04-2005, 05:53 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
At the time, no one knew when Roenick and Primeau would return from injury. The Flyers were left with Marty Murray and Jiri Dopita at center. They *had* to make a move.
Irrelivant to the topic of whether the deal was good or not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
And other teams wanted him too. And yes it does matter if he can never be traded for more than a bag of pucks in the future. If that's the case, you need to trade him when his value is at it's highest.
Lol, once again, irrelivant. I'm not disagreeing that if you're going to trade someone, it's best to do it when his value is at his highest. And back then, Ouellet's value WAS at his highest... they didn't shop him around, or get what his value WAS, back in return in that deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
No he wasn't. He had that ceiling, but he was not "sure fire."
I'm not from Philly, I don't live there, don't really care about the Flyers (aside from the fact that I've got Gagne and Forsberg in a pool), and do consider myself quite unbiased in this topic. Back then when he was traded, Ouellet was as close as you could get to being considered a sure fire future #1 goalie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
And like I said, they got a lot of value back.
Lol. How do you figure? To RENT Adam Oates for the rest of the season and the playoffs, they gave a first, 2nd, 3rd rounder AND Ouellet up. Hell, at the time Oullet ALONE was worth more than RENTING Oates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
No, you have to do both. You can't evaluate trades just on the day they are made, especially when they involve prospects and picks.
Actually, they are two entirely separate things. And I can demonstrate to you very simply.

What would you say if Washington trade Ovechkin at the end of the year to whoever has the first overall pick next year. You'd say it's a horrible deal. Or if you wouldn't, well, that says a lot right there. But what about if 2 years from now, Ovechkin's doing great, he's getting 100 points per season, every year. But that first overall pick ended up being the best player ever, bar none. His 1st year, he gets 195 points.

Are you going to look back and say hey! The Caps made a great trade!!!! Because they still didn't.

When you look at the trade that's made, you look at it as things were back THEN. Ovechkin gets you first overall pick. Good deal? Hell no. Ovechin can get you a lot more.

Just like back then, they were either drunk or something during negotiations, because Washington got one hell of a deal.

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12-04-2005, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Panasonic Youth
You're looking back on the trade too. The Flyers acquired Oates and probably thought that he would have been staying a little bit longer. They had some NHL ready goalies and like other Flyer teams, it was now or never. Giving up a wildcard for the best playmaker at the time only could help the Flyers on their way to the cup. Unfortunately everything fell in on the deal and should be considered a wash.
Obviously i'm looking back on the trade, there's no other way to do it... but what I'm saying today is exactly the same thing I would have, and did say back then.

The Flyers had to assume that getting Oates was a rental. They could have tried to negotiate an extension before the trade if that was important to them.

They didn't just give up a wildcard, they gave up one of the top goalie prospects there was at that time, along with a first, 2nd, and 3rd round pick.

No, nothing ever came out of the deal for anybody, but when the deal was made, it was absolutely horrible. Ouellet was worth a lot more, and the Flyers simply got hosed.

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12-04-2005, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
Irrelivant to the topic of whether the deal was good or not.
But relevant as to whether or not simply aquiring Adam Oates was a good move or not.



Quote:
Lol, once again, irrelivant.
Care to explain how, since you didn't below? And Ouellet's value wasn't any higher after the trade.

Quote:
And back then, Ouellet's value WAS at his highest... they didn't shop him around, or get what his value WAS, back in return in that deal.
You don't know that.


Quote:
I'm not from Philly, I don't live there, don't really care about the Flyers (aside from the fact that I've got Gagne and Forsberg in a pool), and do consider myself quite unbiased in this topic. Back then when he was traded, Ouellet was as close as you could get to being considered a sure fire future #1 goalie.
Well, good for you. But to say he was "as close as you could get to being considered a sure fire future #1" just isn't true. Especially when guys like Rick Dipeitro and Mika Noronen were playing in the AHL with him.

Also I like how in your first post at HF you say "once more you're looking back on the trade now" as if you've been here for a while. Makes me wonder.


Quote:
Lol. How do you figure? To RENT Adam Oates for the rest of the season and the playoffs, they gave a first, 2nd, 3rd rounder AND Ouellet up.
The league leader in assists (and IIRC something like 5th in the league in points at the time), a guy not have a fluke season by any means isn't value? Okay then. Did they give up too much by giving up Ouellet and those picks? Certainly, but everyone knows that, and they had one hand tied behind their backs with Primeau and Roenick on the shelf and no timetable for when they would return. But to say that Adam Oates, having a very good season, wasn't value is just absurd.


Quote:
Hell, at the time Oullet ALONE was worth more than RENTING Oates.
That's your opinion.

Quote:
Actually, they are two entirely separate things. And I can demonstrate to you very simply.

What would you say if Washington trade Ovechkin at the end of the year to whoever has the first overall pick next year. You'd say it's a horrible deal. Or if you wouldn't, well, that says a lot right there. But what about if 2 years from now, Ovechkin's doing great, he's getting 100 points per season, every year. But that first overall pick ended up being the best player ever, bar none. His 1st year, he gets 195 points.

Are you going to look back and say hey! The Caps made a great trade!!!! Because they still didn't.

When you look at the trade that's made, you look at it as things were back THEN. Ovechkin gets you first overall pick. Good deal? Hell no. Ovechin can get you a lot more.
You're missing the point. My post had nothing to do with whether or not they made the best deal or whether or not they got all they could get. It was that they did get value back in Adam Oates. I also gave the reasons why they made the trade because context is needed for that trade if you didn't understand the situation the Flyers were in, which you apparently didn't. I didn't defend it. In fact, I said it was a bad deal at the time, and I'll say it now: it wasn't the best deal Clarke could have gotten. But that's not what I'm discussing.

Quote:
Just like back then, they were either drunk or something during negotiations, because Washington got one hell of a deal.
Which no one argued at the time, or since then. Nor I am I arguing that. The Caps got a lot of value back. It didn't pan out, but they got a lot of value back. And the Flyers got value too. That's my only point, I'm sorry you can't see that.


Last edited by Dr Love: 12-04-2005 at 06:51 PM.
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12-04-2005, 09:28 PM
  #21
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Some of you think this was a (insert preferred negative adjective here) trade because we didn't get MORE value for Ouellet. So who do you think we could have REALISTICALLY traded for with Ouellet being the centerpiece of any trade.

Be mindful that NOTHING (trades for instance) happens in a vacuum. Being a contending team, our injuries and needs at the time dictated that we would be bargaining from a position of WEAKNESS in any trade proposal which would affect the possible return.

Fire away.

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12-04-2005, 10:56 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by The Man
Obviously not... but when you look at past trades, you have to see if they made sense back then... not now.
And it made perfect sense back then. The Flyers were a team many considered to have a legitimate chance at going all the way. They also had a payroll of over $60 million dollars. They lost their top two centers, and had absolutely no timetable on their return, which basically would have destroyed any chance at having a successful playoff run. They could simply not afford, on the ice, or anywhere else, to sit on their hands. Perhaps trading for Oates did nothing to help them go all the way, but they had to try.

And as far as examining trades is concerned, it is clearly not acceptable to look at trades in the short term only. You have to look at both. At the time, the Flyers clearly received the best player in the deal. In the long run, none of the players that Washington "Received" as part of the deal have done a thing at the NHL level. In the long run, no one has "won" the deal. If Oullet becomes a solid NHL starter, or if Semin gets his act together and comes to the NHL to become a productive player, then yes, Washington would have "won" the deal in the long term. As of today, neither of those things have happened.

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12-05-2005, 01:58 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
The league leader in assists (and IIRC something like 5th in the league in points at the time), a guy not have a fluke season by any means isn't value? Okay then. Did they give up too much by giving up Ouellet and those picks? Certainly, but everyone knows that, and they had one hand tied behind their backs with Primeau and Roenick on the shelf and no timetable for when they would return. But to say that Adam Oates, having a very good season, wasn't value is just absurd.

Which no one argued at the time, or since then. Nor I am I arguing that. The Caps got a lot of value back. It didn't pan out, but they got a lot of value back. And the Flyers got value too. That's my only point, I'm sorry you can't see that.
Lol, when did I ever say that they didn't get ANY value back. Your original comment was "Getting the guy who was leading the league in assists (and it wasn't a fluke season) was pretty good value"... it's pretty clear from a statement like that, that it's "pretty good value relative to what we gave up". Otherwise there's just no point.

Unless the put Ouellet and those picks on waivers and got zero back, or traded them for a bag of pucks, hell, even if all they got was a bag of pucks, everything has "value".

What Philly got back was extremely low "value" for what they gave up (at the time, which is the most important part).

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12-05-2005, 02:11 PM
  #24
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I wonder though if Ouellette's play has suffered simply because he lost interest playing in the AHL. It's almost like there's no chance of him getting into the NHL so he just loses all interest. In Philadelphia, he was stuck behind Roman Chokemanek and Brian Boucher. Maxime goes to Washington and he's stuck behind Olaf Kolzig and a roving group of back ups.

There's obviously some talent there in Maxime. You just don't go from being one of the top goaltending prospects to bouncing around the league all for nothing. I'm sure if he were to work with someone like Benoit Allaire, he might pull though. I'd be willing to wager that if he would have ended up in Atlanta, he'd be playing right now.

I just don't think Maxime is a bad goalie and that everything that's happening to him is probably all in his head. Get his head straightened out, he becomes a player again.

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