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Wing musings: To trade, or not?

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Old
12-06-2005, 09:27 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWI19
Always forget about Kozzie...shame on me.
I really liked Kozlov, but by that time, his inconsistency had become a big issue and he was definitely one of the periphery players on the team.
Holland has yet to deal a core player.

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12-06-2005, 10:19 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack
I'm not sure about the idea of dumping Homer. We all know he can't skate or pass, but he's still productive. And the last 2 times we won the cup Homer had 10 playoff goals. I think with this being Yzerman's last year we can afford to hide Homer on the 4th line, and he's proven he can produce when getting less than 10 minutes a game.

I know we won't get anything good in return for Draper & Maltby but I still believe they are by far our most expendable players, and dumping them would free up considerable cap space. Malts makes nearly as much as Homer, and Drapes makes 1M more.
I wouldn't have a problem dealing Holmstrom (or Draper or Maltby, more for cap reasons than anything), but I would be surprised if there are any big moves this season unless we're swapping cap numbers around. I think Holland will bank on a couple of things for this season.

One is that at least one of Fischer/Kronwall will return to play some kind of significant role.

The second is that he'll be able to pick some help up at the deadline for a draft pick with the little bit of extra cap space he's spared himself throughout the year.

Being able to bring in Cleary, Samuelsson and Lilja at cheap prices and getting reasonable returns will probably spell the end for players like Maltby and Draper. It's too obviously possible to find quality low-end help.

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Old
12-06-2005, 10:56 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWI19
I was throwing his name out there as a guy who could fetch a lot in return. I just think next year were gonna be in as much cap hell as we are in now. I dont feel like breaking it down but thee are guys on this roster who will be getting raises and rightfully so. Sure some guys will make less, but the salary cap will more than likely be lowered.
UFA's next year include: shanahan, yzerman, samuelsson, mowers, lidstrom, chelios, lilja, woolley, rivers, osgood and legace.

RFA's next year include: franzen, williams, cleary, hudler, lebda and bootland.

IMO it's fairly safe to say that we may definitely be seeing a much younger team up front.

shanahan: if he's still got the fire i believe he'll stick around for roughly the same $
lidstrom: if he doesn't retire will and IMO SHOULD be brought back for significantly less $
samuelsson: if he can be brought back for roughly the same i wouldn't mind seeing him back, he's got the speed we desperately lack and worst case, he's a better fit than mowers.

franzen should be qualified, no question about that, brings size and ability to use it, has proven to be useful in all situations he's thrown into.
williams should be qualified, he's shown he has what it takes to make it, plus he'll come cheap IMO.
hudler's another lock for next year IMO... albeit who knows if it'll be with the wings or grifs.
lebda, if he'll sign for cheap will be good for depth on d.
ozzie/legace: whoever plays best this year will split time or become backup to howard.

chelios should retire, he's had a great career and before he pulls a messier, although some may claim he already is ... should bow out.
lilja shouldn't be re-uped unless he fills cheli's spot on 3rd pair IMO. hasn't impressed me yet, even with his size and build
mowers while cheap, should go. either cleary or sammy can fill his spot in the pressbox nicely.
cleary, has speed, plays with heart, but i can't even remember the last time i heard his name mentioned on the broadcast, we finally found someone more invisible than lidstrom.
woolley, hard to say he should go, but if we've got someone younger and ready then adios, although i think if it comes down to it, i'd rather see him than lilja out there.
rivers: adios, he comes cheap, but talking about skill, i think even lilja has more
booter, tough call here, he definitely fills a role that we lack on this team, but at the same time he was almost not re-signed last year so i'd have to nod at adios here. just my opinion.
and finally
el capitan, hopefully we get out of the funk we're in now and let stevie ride into the sunset with his head held high.

think i covered everyone. i'd like to see us really transform our d unit. if lids does retire then we'll need to IMO, with the uncertainty of fischer's situation, we've got schneider and kronwall along with quincey and maybe lebda... not a d i'd be worried about if i were the other teams. defense SHOULD be our main concern this off season IMO.

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Old
12-06-2005, 01:50 PM
  #54
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No trade for Pasha...no way.

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12-06-2005, 03:11 PM
  #55
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why is everyone so high on Nick? ican understand theloyalty but he isnt the elite Dman he once was he will still cost a ton to retain and there will be younger more productive players like Jovo and maybe Redden on the market.

i just dont get it

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Old
12-06-2005, 03:16 PM
  #56
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With Grigorenko, Filppula and Hudler comming in, who the hell do we move?

in the future, say 3 years, do we have a lineup of:

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Grigorenko
Filppula - Hudler - Williams

??

who do you guys think will be this odd man out? My guess is williams, we could definitely trade him for a great sized winger with a scoring touch we have lacked for a while

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Old
12-06-2005, 03:19 PM
  #57
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i dont think we really need to trade anyone imo. Grigs plays fast and physical. and Williams is too valueable to trade he will most likely resign fairly cheap and he's built for the new NHL.

the only time i can see us deal someone is if Evan McGrath continues his meteoric rise and forces our hand.

Flip can make for a really good 3nd line C to pair with Franzen imo as well.

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Old
12-06-2005, 06:26 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendo2k
i dont think we really need to trade anyone imo. Grigs plays fast and physical. and Williams is too valueable to trade he will most likely resign fairly cheap and he's built for the new NHL.

the only time i can see us deal someone is if Evan McGrath continues his meteoric rise and forces our hand.

Flip can make for a really good 3nd line C to pair with Franzen imo as well.
This is why I wanted Hudler to make the team out of camp over Cleary/Mowers.
I'd like Hudler to remain with the team all season, because I truly hate the idea of introducing three rookie forwards, as good as they might be, to the team in one season (Hudler/Filppula/Grigorenko). Not to mention Kopecky, who is playing NHL caliber hockey these days
Also consider that Kronwall might not really make his start with the team until next season, along with Quincey perhaps, and maybe even Howard/Liv.

Better to start busting some of the guys in right now.

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Old
12-06-2005, 06:43 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendo2k
why is everyone so high on Nick? ican understand theloyalty but he isnt the elite Dman he once was he will still cost a ton to retain and there will be younger more productive players like Jovo and maybe Redden on the market.

i just dont get it
He's still better than most. Plus he'd be easier to retain than it would be to try and snag one of Redden, Chara, or the tremendously overrated Jovanovski.

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Old
12-06-2005, 06:46 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendo2k
i dont think we really need to trade anyone imo. Grigs plays fast and physical. and Williams is too valueable to trade he will most likely resign fairly cheap and he's built for the new NHL.

the only time i can see us deal someone is if Evan McGrath continues his meteoric rise and forces our hand.

Flip can make for a really good 3nd line C to pair with Franzen imo as well.
Williams is the perfect player to trade. He's not big, fast, or overwhelmingly good. He has great stats though which makes him attractive.

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Old
12-06-2005, 09:13 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Williams is the perfect player to trade. He's not big, fast, or overwhelmingly good. He has great stats though which makes him attractive.
exactly. We need more size along with pure scoring, if push comes to shove and hudler is playing great, we might be able to get a supringly good package for jwill now rather then later, or maybe even in the offseason. Lets just hope holland doesnt screw **** up and trade away the wrong players

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Old
12-06-2005, 10:36 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendo2k
why is everyone so high on Nick? ican understand theloyalty but he isnt the elite Dman he once was he will still cost a ton to retain and there will be younger more productive players like Jovo and maybe Redden on the market.

i just dont get it

Whats not to get? He is still a top 10 NHL defensman. The ONLY things you can say bad about him right now is that he makes too much cash and he has lost a step. All I see on here is what a bad season he is having and he is STILL on pace for 60 some odd points. What happens when he gets hot?

No way you bring him back at his salary. But if he comes back and signs for Schneider type money (which is VERY possibe) then he is a bargain.

What I dont get is the huge hard on everybody has for Jovo? Even the Canucks fans dont get why other teams fans like this guy so much.

Lidstrom still has alot of great hockey left. I wish he wasnt making max salary this year, but theres nothing we can do about it now.

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Old
12-07-2005, 12:53 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
Whats not to get? He is still a top 10 NHL defensman. The ONLY things you can say bad about him right now is that he makes too much cash and he has lost a step. All I see on here is what a bad season he is having and he is STILL on pace for 60 some odd points. What happens when he gets hot?

No way you bring him back at his salary. But if he comes back and signs for Schneider type money (which is VERY possibe) then he is a bargain.

What I dont get is the huge hard on everybody has for Jovo? Even the Canucks fans dont get why other teams fans like this guy so much.

Lidstrom still has alot of great hockey left. I wish he wasnt making max salary this year, but theres nothing we can do about it now.

I agree 100%

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12-07-2005, 06:25 AM
  #64
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There are two problems with the idea of Lidstrom coming back for Schneider money - some other team will be willing to pay him a lot more, and he might not want to play at all if that's the money he'd get. If Leetch and Aucoin are worth 4 million plus, then some bottom feeder is going to throw 5 or 6 at Nick. And Nick's "you have to make it worth my while to stay in America" ultimatums are well-documented. The way he's played, I would prefer Chara over him even if we had to pay more for Chara. We need the size, and Chara is better offensively than Nick is these days anyway.

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12-07-2005, 07:59 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
There are two problems with the idea of Lidstrom coming back for Schneider money - some other team will be willing to pay him a lot more, and he might not want to play at all if that's the money he'd get. If Leetch and Aucoin are worth 4 million plus, then some bottom feeder is going to throw 5 or 6 at Nick. And Nick's "you have to make it worth my while to stay in America" ultimatums are well-documented. The way he's played, I would prefer Chara over him even if we had to pay more for Chara. We need the size, and Chara is better offensively than Nick is these days anyway.
Very possible. But I think Nick would lean towards giving the Wings the "hometown discount" benefit if they come in with $4 million. Why, at this stage, would he want to play for a bottom feeder who throws out the biggest number? That makes no sense at all. When has Nick ever been this type of player? He went on record before the season stating that he really would have liked to have renegotiated his contract to help the Wings with the cap, but the new rules wouldnt allow it.

Its not about money with Lidstrom. I can easily see him playing for "Schneider money" in Detroit if the Wings will be competetive. He wont go to StLouis or Columbus just because they up the Wings offer.

That being said...Chara would look great in the Winged Wheel.

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12-07-2005, 08:02 AM
  #66
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I guess my point was, if it's a choice between Chara at 5 mil and Lidstrom at 4 mil, or even 3 mil, I'd take Chara. He is exactly what this team has been missing for years. Everyone said that about Hatcher, but in the case of Chara, it's actually true. He's not a big slow thug that only puts up points in contract years. The guy is a top player.

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12-07-2005, 08:03 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
There are two problems with the idea of Lidstrom coming back for Schneider money - some other team will be willing to pay him a lot more, and he might not want to play at all if that's the money he'd get. If Leetch and Aucoin are worth 4 million plus, then some bottom feeder is going to throw 5 or 6 at Nick. And Nick's "you have to make it worth my while to stay in America" ultimatums are well-documented. The way he's played, I would prefer Chara over him even if we had to pay more for Chara. We need the size, and Chara is better offensively than Nick is these days anyway.
Nicklas Lidstrom DET 2 games 19 assist = 21 points

Zdeno Chara D OTT 4 goals and 12 assist = 16 points


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12-07-2005, 08:07 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by sarcastro
I guess my point was, if it's a choice between Chara at 5 mil and Lidstrom at 4 mil, or even 3 mil, I'd take Chara. He is exactly what this team has been missing for years. Everyone said that about Hatcher, but in the case of Chara, it's actually true. He's not a big slow thug that only puts up points in contract years. The guy is a top player.
Chara will get a max offer. The Wings cannot afford to give anybody a max offer. If Chara signs anywhere for 5 million I will put nude photos of myself on this message board.


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12-07-2005, 08:12 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
Chara will get a max offer. The Wings cannot afford to give anybody a max offer. If Chara signs anywhere for 5 million I will put nude photos of myself on this message board.


I think i can speak for the whole board...thanks for the offer but not thanks.

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12-07-2005, 08:39 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
I guess my point was, if it's a choice between Chara at 5 mil and Lidstrom at 4 mil, or even 3 mil, I'd take Chara. He is exactly what this team has been missing for years. Everyone said that about Hatcher, but in the case of Chara, it's actually true. He's not a big slow thug that only puts up points in contract years. The guy is a top player.
If Chara's price is in the 5-5.5M range and Lidstrom agrees to Schneider type money (3-3.5M), why not sign both? That's how much Lidstrom + Fischer make right now and it would be a massive upgrade.

Assuming Holland makes smart decisions, next year's team could be substantially better than this years. The keys are retaining key guys at a reasonable salary (of which Lidstrom & Shanahan are the two most critical) and shedding the overpaid in favor of youth. Going with Howard + one of Osgood or Legace will also save money. In total there's at least 10M to be saved imo, and that's enough to sign a franchise defenseman and a pretty good forward. When you add in the rookies that will likely be here next year things are really looking up.

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12-07-2005, 09:01 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
Chara will get a max offer. The Wings cannot afford to give anybody a max offer. If Chara signs anywhere for 5 million I will put nude photos of myself on this message board.


Well, they could if Lidstrom takes a lot less or leaves.

Start buffing up and tanning

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12-07-2005, 01:14 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendo2k
why is everyone so high on Nick? ican understand theloyalty but he isnt the elite Dman he once was he will still cost a ton to retain and there will be younger more productive players like Jovo and maybe Redden on the market.

i just dont get it
Lidstrom: 21 points
Jovanovski: 19 points (-4)
Redden: 21 points

More productive? Lidstrom at his rustiest is producing as many points as these guys, and he is better defensively than both of them put together.

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Old
12-07-2005, 03:18 PM
  #73
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ok here it is... Lidstrom isnt going anywhere through trade, get over it ppl... we dont need another defensemen of allstar calibar, something called the salary cap will haunt us and if you think we can get redden from ottawa your really kidding yourself there...

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12-07-2005, 05:45 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadekuuro
Lidstrom: 21 points
Jovanovski: 19 points (-4)
Redden: 21 points

More productive? Lidstrom at his rustiest is producing as many points as these guys, and he is better defensively than both of them put together.
so lets spend high money on an aging allstar defenseman who is NOT rustiest but is at the age where he is slowing down. instead of signing another allstar Dman who is much less younger who is performing just as well as the older Lidstrom and will perform much longer down the road

THATS what i dont get.

people think Lidstrom is just rusty.... no he isnt. face the facts guys he's getting old. if you guys want to spend 5mill on him next year thats fine however i will take the younger jovo who will come just as much if not less who will give me what Lidstrom does for more years.

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12-07-2005, 05:53 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Hendo2k
so lets spend high money on an aging allstar defenseman who is NOT rustiest but is at the age where he is slowing down. instead of signing another allstar Dman who is much less younger who is performing just as well as the older Lidstrom and will perform much longer down the road

THATS what i dont get.

people think Lidstrom is just rusty.... no he isnt. face the facts guys he's getting old. if you guys want to spend 5mill on him next year thats fine however i will take the younger jovo who will come just as much if not less who will give me what Lidstrom does for more years.
Jovo is about as defensively responsible as Jason Williams. I'm not sure why anyone would be pining after him.

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