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Old
12-08-2005, 06:53 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu
More goaltending commentary.

I understand what norrisnick clarified, and I agree with Winger98's assessment that given what it costs vs. what you can get, it is a tough equation to balance.

So why do you think Holland was in the hunt for Khabibulin to the tune of $5.5 million (maybe more with bonuses??)? In a no cap league, I think Nikolai would be a Wing right now. To me though, this shows how Holland prioritized things. Khabibulin was the only significant UFA goalie available at the time. Just because we missed out on him does not really mean Holland's priorities changed, does it?
I don't believe that he was, not realistically anyway. He might have kept in touch to see what he went for, but signing Khabibulin would have meant 2 of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Schneider not being signed. I don't think he would have gone that route.

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12-08-2005, 07:23 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
I believe you took my comments to mean something that I didn't intend. I'm not saying our goaltending is necessarily bad to the point that we cannot compete. I'm saying if the rest of the team plays so we have to depend on our goaltending we're in trouble. Goaltending hasn't been the make it or break it position for the Wings in a long long time. The level of play of the 18 guys in front of him will decide our fate as they have for a while now.
EXACTLY! The big question is, will a $4'000'000 goalie play 4 times as good as a cheapish one? Will he make 4 times as many amazing saves, let in 1/4th the number of softies..? If the teams is in need of a franchise player, it can go for a star goalie, otherwise spend the money on D-men. Further some of the star shoot keepers the last few seasons were low odds guys. Giguere? Kipper? Khabibulin was hardly considered a "super calibre" goalie untl his last playoff. Meanwhile some big names failed, Cujo and Belfour etc... you never know - and when you pay the man multiple million dollars, it's a tough deal if he isn't delivering his worth.

It was fun to have Cujo and Hasek, but then again, Osgood won more Cups than them. Was he the best? No. Was the worst? No. He was just enough.

As NN said, goalies don't make or break this team. If it'd, god forbid, I'll become a Penguins supporter

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12-08-2005, 09:07 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Yep.

No lousier than your teacup of sunshine and lollypops.
Even if I knew what that meant, I doubt I'd care.

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Old
12-08-2005, 09:19 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by TinCanCommunications
Even if I knew what that meant, I doubt I'd care.
Bingo.

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Old
12-08-2005, 09:28 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by GuloGulo
EXACTLY! The big question is, will a $4'000'000 goalie play 4 times as good as a cheapish one? Will he make 4 times as many amazing saves, let in 1/4th the number of softies..? If the teams is in need of a franchise player, it can go for a star goalie, otherwise spend the money on D-men. Further some of the star shoot keepers the last few seasons were low odds guys. Giguere? Kipper? Khabibulin was hardly considered a "super calibre" goalie untl his last playoff. Meanwhile some big names failed, Cujo and Belfour etc... you never know - and when you pay the man multiple million dollars, it's a tough deal if he isn't delivering his worth.

It was fun to have Cujo and Hasek, but then again, Osgood won more Cups than them. Was he the best? No. Was the worst? No. He was just enough.

As NN said, goalies don't make or break this team. If it'd, god forbid, I'll become a Penguins supporter
Well, if you've been watching the playoffs the last 30 years, you'll know that goaltending is THE BIGGEST FACTOR.

Few teams go far with less than stellar goaltending.
I think the Wings two 90s cups wins were the exception to the rule. And with the Oilers, it probably wouldn't have mattered if Moog or Fuhr or Hardy Astrom was in goal.

Still, look at the goalies who've won Cups since the early 70s

Canadiens: Dryden
Flyers: Parent
Islanders: Smith
Oilers: Fuhr
Habs: Roy
Oilers: Ranford
Flames: Vernon
Rangers: Beezer? RIchter? can't recall
Devils: Brodie
Avs: Roy
Wings: Ozzie, Vernie, Hasek
Stars: Belfour
TB: Khabi

Really, look at that list, and tell me that goaltending isn't the key to winning.

You know why Detroit won the cup in 01-02, when it looked like Detroit was going for it's third straight first round exit? Because Hasek TOOK CONTROL of the series.
He did the same thing against Colorado, going into Denver down 3-2 and facing elimination and pitching a SHUTOUT, and then another in game 7.

Without great goaltending, Detroit would have folded like a cheap tent in 01-02.

In recent playoff failings, goaltending as been a huge ADVANTAGE for our opposition.
In Anaheim, Cujo's stats were good, but he let in bad goals at bad times while the other team road their great goaltending to the SCFs.

Last year in Calgary, Cujo was very good. But Kiprusoff was BETTER.

Looking at the facts, I'm not sure how anyone can OVERSTATE the importance of goaltending.

Detroit was in a tough cap spot. They had no choice but to take two iffy goalies and hope one works out.

But I'm telling you, when the playoffs come, and Detroit plays Calgary or Nashville, you'll remember how important goaltending is.
It might be because our goalies suck. Or it might be because their goalies are awesome.
Or it might be that one of our goalies gets hot and plays out of his mind.

But trust me, we don't have the 96-97 Red Wings in front of us. We can't sweep goaltending under the rug. We haven't been that good for years.

Goaltending is HUGE.

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Old
12-08-2005, 09:45 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCanCommunications
Well, if you've been watching the playoffs the last 30 years, you'll know that goaltending is THE BIGGEST FACTOR.

Few teams go far with less than stellar goaltending.
I think the Wings two 90s cups wins were the exception to the rule. And with the Oilers, it probably wouldn't have mattered if Moog or Fuhr or Hardy Astrom was in goal.

Still, look at the goalies who've won Cups since the early 70s

Canadiens: Dryden
Flyers: Parent
Islanders: Smith
Oilers: Fuhr
Habs: Roy
Oilers: Ranford
Flames: Vernon
Rangers: Beezer? RIchter? can't recall
Devils: Brodie
Avs: Roy
Wings: Ozzie, Vernie, Hasek
Stars: Belfour
TB: Khabi

Really, look at that list, and tell me that goaltending isn't the key to winning.

You know why Detroit won the cup in 01-02, when it looked like Detroit was going for it's third straight first round exit? Because Hasek TOOK CONTROL of the series.
He did the same thing against Colorado, going into Denver down 3-2 and facing elimination and pitching a SHUTOUT, and then another in game 7.

Without great goaltending, Detroit would have folded like a cheap tent in 01-02.

In recent playoff failings, goaltending as been a huge ADVANTAGE for our opposition.
In Anaheim, Cujo's stats were good, but he let in bad goals at bad times while the other team road their great goaltending to the SCFs.

Last year in Calgary, Cujo was very good. But Kiprusoff was BETTER.

Looking at the facts, I'm not sure how anyone can OVERSTATE the importance of goaltending.

Detroit was in a tough cap spot. They had no choice but to take two iffy goalies and hope one works out.

But I'm telling you, when the playoffs come, and Detroit plays Calgary or Nashville, you'll remember how important goaltending is.
It might be because our goalies suck. Or it might be because their goalies are awesome.
Or it might be that one of our goalies gets hot and plays out of his mind.

But trust me, we don't have the 96-97 Red Wings in front of us. We can't sweep goaltending under the rug. We haven't been that good for years.

Goaltending is HUGE.
Goaltending is huge, but you also won't win if you don't score. in 1997, 1998, and 2002, Detroit scored goals and actually won some games. In 2002, Detroit was so good though, that Chelios didn't suck in a Wings uniform, he was actually very good, plus Hasek helped too. Having Roy collapse like a house of cards probably had as much to do with Hasek's shutout's and the Wings scoring 9 goals in the last 2 games of the Avs series. Since then, neither team has done jack in the playoffs, and one of the years was still with Roy in net.

Goaltending is big, but if Detroit won it in 1998 with Ozzie, who at best is a 1a goalie, it's not the end all, be all. Guys like Datysuk or Zetterberg just can't carry the team like Shanny, Igor, Stevie, etc did of old.

Remember, it's still a team sport; team plays like garbage, you get garbage. If Wings fans expect that every goalie will steal a series for the team, good luck.

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Old
12-08-2005, 10:02 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
Goaltending is huge, but you also won't win if you don't score. in 1997, 1998, and 2002, Detroit scored goals and actually won some games. In 2002, Detroit was so good though, that Chelios didn't suck in a Wings uniform, he was actually very good, plus Hasek helped too. Having Roy collapse like a house of cards probably had as much to do with Hasek's shutout's and the Wings scoring 9 goals in the last 2 games of the Avs series. Since then, neither team has done jack in the playoffs, and one of the years was still with Roy in net.

Goaltending is big, but if Detroit won it in 1998 with Ozzie, who at best is a 1a goalie, it's not the end all, be all. Guys like Datysuk or Zetterberg just can't carry the team like Shanny, Igor, Stevie, etc did of old.

Remember, it's still a team sport; team plays like garbage, you get garbage. If Wings fans expect that every goalie will steal a series for the team, good luck.

I know it's a team sport, G.

But let's be honest. Goaltending, in the playoffs, is the most important position on the ice.
It's why I did a cartwheel when we landed Hasek.

You can win with average goaltending and a great team. But it's damn hard. And rarely done.

And you're right. Our team isn't as good as it used to be (it wasn't as good in 02 as it was in 97, either)

So goaltending becomes an even bigger issue.

If you ask me, if Detroit had Roy and Colorado had Osgood, there's no telling how many cups Detroit could have won.

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Old
12-08-2005, 11:35 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu
More goaltending commentary.

I understand what norrisnick clarified, and I agree with Winger98's assessment that given what it costs vs. what you can get, it is a tough equation to balance.

So why do you think Holland was in the hunt for Khabibulin to the tune of $5.5 million (maybe more with bonuses??)? In a no cap league, I think Nikolai would be a Wing right now. To me though, this shows how Holland prioritized things. Khabibulin was the only significant UFA goalie available at the time. Just because we missed out on him does not really mean Holland's priorities changed, does it?
I think he pursued Khabibulen so hard because that's how you typically build a solid team, from the net out, and this was his plan for the wings in the post-cap world. At the time, we hadn't signed either of the kids, I think Schneider was still in limbo, and we had no idea how or if players like Franzen, Cleary, Lilja, Lebda, etc. would step up. There were a ton of question marks about this team before this season started, so starting from a top end goalie and working out probably looked like the safest path to take.

Seeing how well the wings have done this season, though, how other teams are doing, and how promising (or not promising) Howard/MacDonald/Liv look, I think that game plan could definitely change for Holland. Also, Holland has had a first row seat for how badly the Hawks are struggling and how Khabibulen hasn't lived entirely up to expectations.

I agree that in a no-cap world, the Wings would have inked Khabibulen. Them or the Avs. But with the cap in place, and seeing how successful teams can be building around less than elite goalies, I can see Holland shifting gears and re-prioritizing his spending next summer.

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