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SI ranks Toronto #13

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Old
10-15-2003, 09:25 AM
  #1
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SI ranks Toronto #13

"An old team with a new G.M. plus a weak defense doesn't add up to a Cup contender"
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...6/maple_leafs/

SI team department rankings:
OFFENSE 8
DEFENSE 19
GOALTENDING 5
POWER PLAY 9
PENALTY KILLING 11
G.M. AND COACH 16


I would not rank the "GM AND COACH" (particularly coaching) that high and the jury is out on JFJ until he has a chance to actually take control. You do need a defensive system to win, not a pond hockey and Quinn seems to have missed that boat. Yes I know he did win a Gold Medal at Salt Lake City but he had two of the best system men in Hitchcock and Martin as associate coaches and they just about had to arm wrestle Quinn to replace Cujo with Brodeur after the first game. Rick Ley and Keith Acton are not in the same class with Hitchcock or Martin. Does it not seem odd that two former defensive d-men like Quinn and Ley and a former two-way centre like Keith Acton, cannot put a defensive scheme together?

"OFFENSE" could be ranked higher particularly if Nieuwendyk, (Note to Joe - Please change the spelling of your name, please), Antropov, Roberts and Nolan stay healthy - already Mogilny is having groin problems. However the biggest offensive problems could paradoxically come from the weakest link - the defense as the a lack of offensive talent on the back end compared to the top teams (Lidstrom, Blake, Jovanovski, Pronger, MacInnis, etc.) may cut down the offensive production.

DEFENSE may well be actually lower since there is no real stud No. 1 D-man and the top four are more like the bottom four with the departure of Svelha and Wesley and injury to McCabe. If Kaberle is your No.1 you are in deep trouble and few rookie D-men make an immediate impact. The NHL claims to be cracking down on low-bridge hits and hits to the head so Marchment could be suspended for significant periods assuming he has the speed left to actually catch the speedier forwards. The best defense will likely have to be Belfour on many nights. As SI notes, "The problem is, the defense has more soft spots than a moldy peach."

SI's top five team picks for 2003-04 with my asssessment:

1. Senators - pretty hard to argue and Havlat is back
2. Wings - only if the real Dominator returns and Stevie Y is Stevie Wonderful but ooooh that defense
3. Devils - Brodeur and the system are amazing
4. Avs - goalie? we don't need no stinkin' goalie
5. Canucks - secondary scoring and goaltending - what's new

Hard to argue with the rankings but anything can happpen particularly if a team gets hit by a rash of injuries a la the Kings which could be the achilles heel in Toronto (fragile forwards and can Belfour last a full season while being vulcanized) and for that matter Detroit.

Here are SI's play-off predictions:

Eastern Conference
Senators over the Devils

Western Conference
Red Wings over Avs

Stanley Cup
Senators over Red Wings

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10-15-2003, 09:48 AM
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Probably Rated a bit high at 13....

If they are correct though on the ranking then Leafs are just going to squeek in to the Playoffs..

Lets see what happens.. I don't necessarily agree with 13 but they certainly are not in the top percentage..

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10-15-2003, 10:01 AM
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were ranked 5th in goaltending???? we had a vezina trophy runner up in net, who exactly is ahead of us?? and dont give me that cr@p about him being 1 year older

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10-15-2003, 10:18 AM
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SI covers hockey?

what is it on, the last page of the bikini issue?

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10-15-2003, 10:24 AM
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Yup, when I want to know what's what in the world of hockey I go right to Sports Illustrated. Their knowledge and coverage of hockey is unsurpassed.

From "Field Guide To Trolls: 2nd Edition":

"...another of the many signs of the troll is the constant posting of any article, no matter what joke of a publication it comes from, that gives an excuse to bash..."

Way to go Wetdiaper. You've proven exactly nothing, as usual.

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10-15-2003, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by pinto80
were ranked 5th in goaltending???? we had a vezina trophy runner up in net, who exactly is ahead of us?? and dont give me that cr@p about him being 1 year older
1 - New Jersey (Brodeur, Schwab)
2 - Detroit (Hasek, Joseph, Legace)
3 - Dallas (Turco, Tugnutt)
4 - Tampa Bay (Khabibulin, Grahame)
5 - Toronto (Belfour, Kidd, Tellqvist)
6 - Anaheim (Giguere, Gerber)
7 - Florida (Luongo, Hurme - at the time)
8 - Montreal (Theodore, Garon)
9 - San Jose (Nabokov, Toskala, Kiprusoff?)
10 - Ottawa (Lalime, Prusek)
11 - Washington (Kolzig, Charpentier)
12 - Philadelphia (Hackett, Esche)
13 - Phoenix (Burke, Bierk, Boucher)
14 - Edmonton (Salo, Conklin)
15 - Los Angeles (Cechmanek, Huet)
16 - St. Louis (Osgood, Johnson)
17 - Buffalo (Biron, Miller, Noronen)
18 - Nashville (Vokoun, Lasak?)
19 - Chicago (Thibault, Leighton)
20 - Minnesota (Roloson, Fernandez)
21 - NY Rangers (Dunham, Markkanen, Blackburn)
22 - Vancouver (Cloutier, Hedberg)
23 - NY Islanders (DiPietro, Snow)
24 - Calgary (Turek, McLennan)
25 - Atlanta (Nurminen, Dafoe)
26 - Carolina (Weekes, Irbe)
27 - Boston (Potvin, Raycroft)
28 - Colorado (Aebischer, Sauve)
29 - Columbus (Denis, Brathwaite)
30 - Pittsburgh (Caron, Fleury)

That's pretty OK with me...I'm sure the Leafs would be ahead of Tampa Bay if the backups were reversed...

Too Low - Columbus (Denis is pretty solid), Chicago (Thibault was an All-Star last year), Minnesota (the tandem is excellent even if neither is a star), Ottawa (Lalime gets no respect and Prusek may be the best backup in the league)

Too High - San Jose (Nabokov's riding on his play of years past), Philadelphia (doesn't seem much better than, say, Vancouver's duo), Edmonton (Salo above Cechmanek?)

 
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10-15-2003, 03:14 PM
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I'd like to see the list of 7 offenses better than Toronto's.

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10-15-2003, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ArtVandelei
I'd like to see the list of 7 offenses better than Toronto's.
Oy.

1 - Colorado (Forsberg, Sakic, Hejduk, Kariya, Selanne...)
2 - Ottawa (Hossa, Alfredsson, Havlat, Bonk, Spezza, Smolinski...)
3 - Vancouver (Naslund, Bertuzzi, Morrison, Linden, Sedins)
4 - St. Louis (Weight, Demitra, Tkachuk, Mellanby, Cajanek, Sejna)
5 - Detroit (Yzerman, Shanahan, Hull, Zetterberg, Datsyuk...)
6 - Boston (Thornton, Samsonov, Murray, Knuble, Rolston)
7 - Dallas (Modano, Guerin, Morrow, Arnott, Lehtinen, Turgeon...)
8 - Toronto

 
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10-15-2003, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by nordique
Oy.

1 - Colorado (Forsberg, Sakic, Hejduk, Kariya, Selanne...)
2 - Ottawa (Hossa, Alfredsson, Havlat, Bonk, Spezza, Smolinski...)
3 - Vancouver (Naslund, Bertuzzi, Morrison, Linden, Sedins)
4 - St. Louis (Weight, Demitra, Tkachuk, Mellanby, Cajanek, Sejna)
5 - Detroit (Yzerman, Shanahan, Hull, Zetterberg, Datsyuk...)
6 - Boston (Thornton, Samsonov, Murray, Knuble, Rolston)
7 - Dallas (Modano, Guerin, Morrow, Arnott, Lehtinen, Turgeon...)
8 - Toronto

Thanks. That's laughable, though. Toronto is 3rd at worst.

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10-15-2003, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ArtVandelei
Thanks. That's laughable, though. Toronto is 3rd at worst.
Well, last year Toronto was 8th in the league in goals, after Detroit, Vancouver, Ottawa, St. Louis, Colorado, Dallas and Boston...and 9 goals less than the Bruins.

Who would you say the Leafs have improved to pass? All of those teams should be better or as good as they were this season - Boston with a healthy Samsonov, Colorado with Kariya and Selanne, nobody else lost anyone. I doubt that wonky back Nolan and aged Nieuwendyk should get them over the hump.

If anything, I'd take Philadelphia's group of forwards over our own, probably...Amonte, Roenick, Gagne, Primeau, Handzus, Kapanen, Recchi, Leclair, Williams is a pretty stellar top 9.

 
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10-15-2003, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nordique
Well, last year Toronto was 8th in the league in goals, after Detroit, Vancouver, Ottawa, St. Louis, Colorado, Dallas and Boston...and 9 goals less than the Bruins.

Who would you say the Leafs have improved to pass? All of those teams should be better or as good as they were this season - Boston with a healthy Samsonov, Colorado with Kariya and Selanne, nobody else lost anyone. I doubt that wonky back Nolan and aged Nieuwendyk should get them over the hump.

If anything, I'd take Philadelphia's group of forwards over our own, probably...Amonte, Roenick, Gagne, Primeau, Handzus, Kapanen, Recchi, Leclair, Williams is a pretty stellar top 9.
I doubt hitchcock will abandon his defensive system and turn those guys loose.In a wide open system i would agree but its doubtful under his system.

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10-15-2003, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by leaflover
I doubt hitchcock will abandon his defensive system and turn those guys loose.In a wide open system i would agree but its doubtful under his system.
Not sure why that matters at all...we're not talking about who's going to score more goals, we're talking about who's got the better group of forwards.

Atlanta finished with more goals scored than New Jersey last season...doesn't mean they had a better forward bunch.

 
Old
10-15-2003, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nordique
Well, last year Toronto was 8th in the league in goals, after Detroit, Vancouver, Ottawa, St. Louis, Colorado, Dallas and Boston...and 9 goals less than the Bruins.

Who would you say the Leafs have improved to pass? All of those teams should be better or as good as they were this season - Boston with a healthy Samsonov, Colorado with Kariya and Selanne, nobody else lost anyone. I doubt that wonky back Nolan and aged Nieuwendyk should get them over the hump.

If anything, I'd take Philadelphia's group of forwards over our own, probably...Amonte, Roenick, Gagne, Primeau, Handzus, Kapanen, Recchi, Leclair, Williams is a pretty stellar top 9.
Since early last year we've added Nolan and Niew for Hoglund and Corson, and Roberts started the season. + Nolan, Niew, Rob. -Hog, Cor, Mac. Using reasonable estimates, that should be an extra 70 points or so over the course of the season. (estimates: +60+50+50-30-25-20. And extra -15 to compensate for the fact that Nolan and Roberts did play some last season)

- Detroit lost Fedorov, and Whitney's not as good.
- Vancouver and Ottawa and Stlouis and Dallas didn't make enough improvements to suggest an 70 point climb.
- They only listed 5 players for Boston, as opposed to 6 for most other teams, thereby showing that Boston really has no scoring depth. Altho Boston gained a healthy Samsonov, they also lost a high-scoring Berard.

Lastly, simply put, if you do a player for player comparison, only Colorado, and possibly Ottawa's players can be placed ahead of Toronto's.

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10-15-2003, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nordique
Not sure why that matters at all...we're not talking about who's going to score more goals, we're talking about who's got the better group of forwards.

Atlanta finished with more goals scored than New Jersey last season...doesn't mean they had a better forward bunch.
Actually the category was offense.

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10-15-2003, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ArtVandelei
Since early last year we've added Nolan and Niew for Hoglund and Corson, and Roberts started the season. + Nolan, Niew, Rob. -Hog, Cor, Mac. Using reasonable estimates, that should be an extra 70 points or so over the course of the season. (estimates: +60+50+50-30-25-20. And extra -15 to compensate for the fact that Nolan and Roberts did play some last season)

- Detroit lost Fedorov, and Whitney's not as good.
- Vancouver and Ottawa and Stlouis and Dallas didn't make enough improvements to suggest an 70 point climb.
- They only listed 5 players for Boston, as opposed to 6 for most other teams, thereby showing that Boston really has no scoring depth. Altho Boston gained a healthy Samsonov, they also lost a high-scoring Berard.

Lastly, simply put, if you do a player for player comparison, only Colorado, and possibly Ottawa's players can be placed ahead of Toronto's.
First of all, I listed those players in brackets, not SI.

Second of all, player for player isn't as relevant as the overall makeup...I'd argue having a line like Draper-Maltby-McCarty trumps the usefulness of a third line of Tucker-Nieuwendyk-Roberts or whatever.

But OK.

Joe Nieuwendyk scored 17 goals last year. The last time he scored 30 in a season was 1997-98 with Dallas.
Owen Nolan's goal totals for the past 4 seasons: 24, 23, 22, 29 - and he's suffering both hip and back injuries.
Darcy Tucker scored 10 goals last year.
Antropov has tons of potential, but his career high in goals is still 16.
Roberts hasn't been a 30-goal man since 1994.
Renberg, who mostly plays with Sundin, has scored 15, 10, 14 and 14 goals in his past four seasons.
---------------------

Dallas: Modano (30 goals 4 of the last 5 years), Guerin (40 goals in 2 of his past 3 seasons), Lehtinen (30 goals last year, arguably best defensive forward in NHL), Morrow (2 20-goal seasons in past 3), Arnott (consistently in ~25 range plus a banger), Turgeon (on the downside but scored 30 only 3 seasons ago).

Detroit: Hull (39-30-27 in past 3), Shanahan (5 straight 30-goal seasons), Yzerman (still a PPG player in the past several seasons), Datsyuk (rapidly improving), Zetterberg (top rookie scorer last year), Whitney (reliable scorer, always 20+), plus the Grind Line.

Philly: Gagne (33 goals 2 seasons ago, hurt most of last year), Roenick (dropping a bit but still 34-30-21-27 in last 4 for goals), Amonte (lousy last year but again, has been very good in recent past), Primeau (34 goals in 00-01, dominant checker), Handzus (23 last year, impressive checking centre), Recchi (on downslope, but 4 straight 20-goal seasons), Williams (tons o' potential, as Antropov has), Leclair (if healthy, still a force, although not often healthy anymore), Kapanen (fast as hell, 27 goals 2 years ago)

St. Louis: Demitra (back to back 35 goal seasons), Tkachuk (3 straight 30-goal seasons), Weight (at PPG pace but injury trouble), Mellanby (36 goals last year), Drake (20 G last year), Cajanek (38 pts in 51 gms as rookie), Sejna (Hobey Baker winner), some good grinders (Mayers, Johnson, Rycroft but will miss Tyson Nash)

Vancouver: Bertuzzi (46 G last year) & Naslund (3 straight 40 goal years), Morrison (23-25 G in last 2), Linden (19 G last year) and lots of solid two-way energy guys (Cooke, Arvedson, May, Ruutu) - they need the Sedins to contribute but Bertuzzi & Naslund alone took them pretty damn far last year.

Even a healthy Kings team (Palffy, Allison, Deadmarsh, Stumpel, Robitaille, Frolov, Klatt, Belanger) would be tough.

Let's not overrate our Leafs, shall we? Nieuwy isn't an offensive force, hasn't been for a while. Tucker had one big year 2 seasons ago, but aside from that has been a 10-15 goal man. Roberts can score 20, but is old and brittle. Nolan hasn't scored 30 in a loooooong time. For reliable scoring talent it's Sundin and Mogilny - and by scoring I mean 30-goal guys. We have to hope some of these other guys find the fountain of youth, Antropov and Stajan develop rapidly and nobody gets hurt.

I mean, Renberg has 28 goals in 2 years playing with Sundin?

 
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10-15-2003, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nordique
First of all, I listed those players in brackets, not SI.

Second of all, player for player isn't as relevant as the overall makeup...I'd argue having a line like Draper-Maltby-McCarty trumps the usefulness of a third line of Tucker-Nieuwendyk-Roberts or whatever.

But OK.

Joe Nieuwendyk scored 17 goals last year. The last time he scored 30 in a season was 1997-98 with Dallas.
Owen Nolan's goal totals for the past 4 seasons: 24, 23, 22, 29 - and he's suffering both hip and back injuries.
Darcy Tucker scored 10 goals last year.
Antropov has tons of potential, but his career high in goals is still 16.
Roberts hasn't been a 30-goal man since 1994.
Renberg, who mostly plays with Sundin, has scored 15, 10, 14 and 14 goals in his past four seasons.
---------------------

Dallas: Modano (30 goals 4 of the last 5 years), Guerin (40 goals in 2 of his past 3 seasons), Lehtinen (30 goals last year, arguably best defensive forward in NHL), Morrow (2 20-goal seasons in past 3), Arnott (consistently in ~25 range plus a banger), Turgeon (on the downside but scored 30 only 3 seasons ago).

Detroit: Hull (39-30-27 in past 3), Shanahan (5 straight 30-goal seasons), Yzerman (still a PPG player in the past several seasons), Datsyuk (rapidly improving), Zetterberg (top rookie scorer last year), Whitney (reliable scorer, always 20+), plus the Grind Line.

Philly: Gagne (33 goals 2 seasons ago, hurt most of last year), Roenick (dropping a bit but still 34-30-21-27 in last 4 for goals), Amonte (lousy last year but again, has been very good in recent past), Primeau (34 goals in 00-01, dominant checker), Handzus (23 last year, impressive checking centre), Recchi (on downslope, but 4 straight 20-goal seasons), Williams (tons o' potential, as Antropov has), Leclair (if healthy, still a force, although not often healthy anymore), Kapanen (fast as hell, 27 goals 2 years ago)

St. Louis: Demitra (back to back 35 goal seasons), Tkachuk (3 straight 30-goal seasons), Weight (at PPG pace but injury trouble), Mellanby (36 goals last year), Drake (20 G last year), Cajanek (38 pts in 51 gms as rookie), Sejna (Hobey Baker winner), some good grinders (Mayers, Johnson, Rycroft but will miss Tyson Nash)

Vancouver: Bertuzzi (46 G last year) & Naslund (3 straight 40 goal years), Morrison (23-25 G in last 2), Linden (19 G last year) and lots of solid two-way energy guys (Cooke, Arvedson, May, Ruutu) - they need the Sedins to contribute but Bertuzzi & Naslund alone took them pretty damn far last year.

Even a healthy Kings team (Palffy, Allison, Deadmarsh, Stumpel, Robitaille, Frolov, Klatt, Belanger) would be tough.

Let's not overrate our Leafs, shall we? Nieuwy isn't an offensive force, hasn't been for a while. Tucker had one big year 2 seasons ago, but aside from that has been a 10-15 goal man. Roberts can score 20, but is old and brittle. Nolan hasn't scored 30 in a loooooong time. For reliable scoring talent it's Sundin and Mogilny - and by scoring I mean 30-goal guys. We have to hope some of these other guys find the fountain of youth, Antropov and Stajan develop rapidly and nobody gets hurt.

I mean, Renberg has 28 goals in 2 years playing with Sundin?
Dont have time to get into detail, just a few points:

Nolan scored 44 goals in 99-00. Check your stats again. He's averaged 0.88 ppg in the last four years.

Some pretty 'excuses' for players on other teams - Yzerman (you left out his goal totals), Sejna (not established at ALL), Vancouver's 'depth', Turgeon's last 30 goal campaign and the impression of a lot more spin.

But hey, its okay - you left out the intangibles of guys like Nieuwendyk (two way play), Roberts (grit), ditto for Tucker. I think its you who has underrated the Leafs offense a bit. When you have a guy like Reichel, on your FOURTH line, putting up 45 points, it says a lot in terms of that teams offensive depth.

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10-16-2003, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ThinkBlue
Dont have time to get into detail, just a few points:

Nolan scored 44 goals in 99-00. Check your stats again. He's averaged 0.88 ppg in the last four years.

Some pretty 'excuses' for players on other teams - Yzerman (you left out his goal totals), Sejna (not established at ALL), Vancouver's 'depth', Turgeon's last 30 goal campaign and the impression of a lot more spin.

But hey, its okay - you left out the intangibles of guys like Nieuwendyk (two way play), Roberts (grit), ditto for Tucker. I think its you who has underrated the Leafs offense a bit. When you have a guy like Reichel, on your FOURTH line, putting up 45 points, it says a lot in terms of that teams offensive depth.
Yes, Nolan did...that was four seasons ago now.
Yzerman had 52 pts in 54 games in 00-01, 48 in 52 in 01-02, and was hurt for most of last year, but he's still a Hall of Fame player - he's a player I didn't really feel like I needed to justify.

I was responding to the contention by Vandelei that there are only 1 or 2 teams with better forward groups than ours. I'm responding that I'd rather have the forwards of many other teams than ours. Give me Dallas' all-around talent. Tucker has grit, sure, but he also takes stupid penalties and was part of a serious locker room division last year. For grit players, are Nieuwendyk, Tucker, Renberg and Roberts significantly better than, say, Mellanby, Drake, Mayers and Cajanek? I'd contend that there's not a big difference.

I feel like Nieuwendyk, Tucker and Renberg live on name recognition more so than actual deserved reputation.

If you'd take Toronto's forwards over Detroit's or Dallas', I'm not sure how that argument can be made by any rationale other than homerism.

 
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10-16-2003, 10:57 AM
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I feel like Nieuwendyk, Tucker and Renberg live on name recognition more so than actual deserved reputation.
Nieuwendyk has 500 goals, and 3 rings. Nobody needs to "justify" that either. He's a lock for the Hall.

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10-16-2003, 02:08 PM
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Nieuwendyk has 500 goals, and 3 rings. Nobody needs to "justify" that either. He's a lock for the Hall.
First of all, if it was up to me, Nieuwendyk's not in the Hall of Fame. He WILL be, but I don't think he should be.

Second of all, Yzerman's been scoring at a PPG clip over the past few seasons even after he's stopped being a 30-40 goal man. Nieuwendyk, not so much of late.

 
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10-16-2003, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nordique
Not sure why that matters at all...we're not talking about who's going to score more goals, we're talking about who's got the better group of forwards.

Atlanta finished with more goals scored than New Jersey last season...doesn't mean they had a better forward bunch.
The leafs were ranked 8th in offense,which to me means goal scoring as a team.

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10-16-2003, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nordique
First of all, I listed those players in brackets, not SI.

Second of all, player for player isn't as relevant as the overall makeup...I'd argue having a line like Draper-Maltby-McCarty trumps the usefulness of a third line of Tucker-Nieuwendyk-Roberts or whatever.

But OK.

Joe Nieuwendyk scored 17 goals last year. The last time he scored 30 in a season was 1997-98 with Dallas.
Owen Nolan's goal totals for the past 4 seasons: 24, 23, 22, 29 - and he's suffering both hip and back injuries.
Darcy Tucker scored 10 goals last year.
Antropov has tons of potential, but his career high in goals is still 16.
Roberts hasn't been a 30-goal man since 1994.
Renberg, who mostly plays with Sundin, has scored 15, 10, 14 and 14 goals in his past four seasons.
---------------------

Dallas: Modano (30 goals 4 of the last 5 years), Guerin (40 goals in 2 of his past 3 seasons), Lehtinen (30 goals last year, arguably best defensive forward in NHL), Morrow (2 20-goal seasons in past 3), Arnott (consistently in ~25 range plus a banger), Turgeon (on the downside but scored 30 only 3 seasons ago).

Detroit: Hull (39-30-27 in past 3), Shanahan (5 straight 30-goal seasons), Yzerman (still a PPG player in the past several seasons), Datsyuk (rapidly improving), Zetterberg (top rookie scorer last year), Whitney (reliable scorer, always 20+), plus the Grind Line.

Philly: Gagne (33 goals 2 seasons ago, hurt most of last year), Roenick (dropping a bit but still 34-30-21-27 in last 4 for goals), Amonte (lousy last year but again, has been very good in recent past), Primeau (34 goals in 00-01, dominant checker), Handzus (23 last year, impressive checking centre), Recchi (on downslope, but 4 straight 20-goal seasons), Williams (tons o' potential, as Antropov has), Leclair (if healthy, still a force, although not often healthy anymore), Kapanen (fast as hell, 27 goals 2 years ago)

St. Louis: Demitra (back to back 35 goal seasons), Tkachuk (3 straight 30-goal seasons), Weight (at PPG pace but injury trouble), Mellanby (36 goals last year), Drake (20 G last year), Cajanek (38 pts in 51 gms as rookie), Sejna (Hobey Baker winner), some good grinders (Mayers, Johnson, Rycroft but will miss Tyson Nash)

Vancouver: Bertuzzi (46 G last year) & Naslund (3 straight 40 goal years), Morrison (23-25 G in last 2), Linden (19 G last year) and lots of solid two-way energy guys (Cooke, Arvedson, May, Ruutu) - they need the Sedins to contribute but Bertuzzi & Naslund alone took them pretty damn far last year.

Even a healthy Kings team (Palffy, Allison, Deadmarsh, Stumpel, Robitaille, Frolov, Klatt, Belanger) would be tough.

Let's not overrate our Leafs, shall we? Nieuwy isn't an offensive force, hasn't been for a while. Tucker had one big year 2 seasons ago, but aside from that has been a 10-15 goal man. Roberts can score 20, but is old and brittle. Nolan hasn't scored 30 in a loooooong time. For reliable scoring talent it's Sundin and Mogilny - and by scoring I mean 30-goal guys. We have to hope some of these other guys find the fountain of youth, Antropov and Stajan develop rapidly and nobody gets hurt.

I mean, Renberg has 28 goals in 2 years playing with Sundin?

There's tons of anti-leaf bias in your post. I know you're a Leaf fan, but in proving your point, you've gone all out.

For example, I like your wording on Turgeon "scored 30 only 3 seasons ago", and then for Nolan, you say "hasn't scored 30 in a loooong time. So 3 seasons is "only" and 4 seasons is "a looong time"?


Now, let's see.

Dallas: You put Morrow as Dallas' 4th best scorer. Morrow had 35 2 seasons ago, and 43 last season. Tucker has averaged 45 a season for the last 5 years. Reichel has scored 90 points in the last 2. Morrow's dallas' 4th best, and yet our 7th and 9th forwards should outscore him.

Detroit: You mention Nolan's ailments, yet you ignore Yzerman's- which are worse. And AGAIN, like I pointed out in my post, Detroit's forwards are less impresive this year than they were last, and Toronto's are much more so.

Philly: "Amonte's been very good in recent past". He's been progressively worse for the last 5 seasons. Primeau, Handzus, Recci are usefull players, but they're not big time scorers anymore. Kapanen hasn't done anything the last 2 seasons, and has NEVER scored 30. He's always been overrated. Leclair hasn't been healthy for several years, and he's never produced without Lindros. Justin Williams as much potential as Antropov? Are you serious?

St.Louis: Mellanby, Drake? You seriously expect these guys to replicate last year's numbers? Sejna, Cajanek? They've proven nothing.
Vancouver: Cooke, Arvedson, May, Ruutu? What the hell? We're still talking about scoring, aren't we? I'm pretty sure Reichel+Domi will outscore those 4 all by themselves.

La: Healthy, they may finally have a 2 line offense, and good enough to be mentioned with the big-boys, perhaps. As is, they shouldn't even be a factor.

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10-16-2003, 05:13 PM
  #22
nordique
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Dallas: You put Morrow as Dallas' 4th best scorer. Morrow had 35 2 seasons ago, and 43 last season. Tucker has averaged 45 a season for the last 5 years. Reichel has scored 90 points in the last 2. Morrow's dallas' 4th best, and yet our 7th and 9th forwards should outscore him.

Detroit: You mention Nolan's ailments, yet you ignore Yzerman's- which are worse. And AGAIN, like I pointed out in my post, Detroit's forwards are less impresive this year than they were last, and Toronto's are much more so.

Philly: "Amonte's been very good in recent past". He's been progressively worse for the last 5 seasons. Primeau, Handzus, Recci are usefull players, but they're not big time scorers anymore. Kapanen hasn't done anything the last 2 seasons, and has NEVER scored 30. He's always been overrated. Leclair hasn't been healthy for several years, and he's never produced without Lindros. Justin Williams as much potential as Antropov? Are you serious?

St.Louis: Mellanby, Drake? You seriously expect these guys to replicate last year's numbers? Sejna, Cajanek? They've proven nothing.
Vancouver: Cooke, Arvedson, May, Ruutu? What the hell? We're still talking about scoring, aren't we? I'm pretty sure Reichel+Domi will outscore those 4 all by themselves.

La: Healthy, they may finally have a 2 line offense, and good enough to be mentioned with the big-boys, perhaps. As is, they shouldn't even be a factor.
Detroit's forwards are less impressive? Sure, by replacing Fedorov with Whitney, but I also expect Zetterberg and Datsyuk to greatly improve this season.

I'm talking about all-around forwards, not just scoring. So yeah, I take Brenden Morrow over Robert Reichel and Steve Yzerman (who has still scored despite his injuries) over Owen Nolan.

 
Old
10-16-2003, 05:32 PM
  #23
ArtVandelei
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Originally Posted by nordique
Detroit's forwards are less impressive? Sure, by replacing Fedorov with Whitney, but I also expect Zetterberg and Datsyuk to greatly improve this season.

I'm talking about all-around forwards, not just scoring. So yeah, I take Brenden Morrow over Robert Reichel and Steve Yzerman (who has still scored despite his injuries) over Owen Nolan.
Ok, I'm not going to get into the 2-way forwards discussion, because we don't have concrete empirical evidence to defend our choices, as we do with offensive stats, but...I thought this whole discussion was about scoring...since it was more or less set-off by your statement that Leafs finished 8th in scoring last year, and you asking to point out which teams the Leafs should overcome..

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