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Old
12-12-2005, 09:57 AM
  #1
abev
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Dealing with success

I know we all have a hard time coming to grips with the Rangers success. We know they cant be good. If the Rangers actually win a game, their opponent either a) is a worse team or b) they had an off night or the ever popular c) the Rangers got lucky, with the sum of a+b+c = if they keep playing like this they wont win against the 'good' teams.

Why has no one ever brought up the possibilty that the lesser teams step it up vs the Rangers? Are the Rangers the only team in the NHL whose effort fluctuates greatly depending on their opponent?

The Caps can have an 'on' night just as much as the Preds can have an 'off' night. And teams, no matter what the record of their opponents, can match up better or worse independant of their position in the standings.

Consider what Blues coach Mike Kitchen said after Saturday night's game in STL:

"The team played a hell of a hockey game," Kitchen said, as he opened his postgame remarks. "The best hockey game we've played all year. The skaters were terrific."

It's ok to believe in the Rangers. We dont need to be cocky, or make playoff proclamations (or Stanley Cup). But there's no reason in the world why we cant believe in this team, why we cant accept wins as wins and losses as one game in between win streaks.

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12-12-2005, 10:07 AM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abev
I know we all have a hard time coming to grips with the Rangers success. We know they cant be good. If the Rangers actually win a game, their opponent either a) is a worse team or b) they had an off night or the ever popular c) the Rangers got lucky, with the sum of a+b+c = if they keep playing like this they wont win against the 'good' teams.

Why has no one ever brought up the possibilty that the lesser teams step it up vs the Rangers? Are the Rangers the only team in the NHL whose effort fluctuates greatly depending on their opponent?

The Caps can have an 'on' night just as much as the Preds can have an 'off' night. And teams, no matter what the record of their opponents, can match up better or worse independant of their position in the standings.

Consider what Blues coach Mike Kitchen said after Saturday night's game in STL:

"The team played a hell of a hockey game," Kitchen said, as he opened his postgame remarks. "The best hockey game we've played all year. The skaters were terrific."

It's ok to believe in the Rangers. We dont need to be cocky, or make playoff proclamations (or Stanley Cup). But there's no reason in the world why we cant believe in this team, why we cant accept wins as wins and losses as one game in between win streaks.
You know what, you're right. If this team simply outworks and outhustles the opposing team, they may win every night, just based on a hard work alone (of course, Weekes and Henke would have to continue to be above-average Gs). I truly believe that if we win every loose battle puck in a game against such monster as Ottawa, we can beat them. At least once. After a terrible pre-season, I thought that the first game against a healthy Philly team was a fluke. But the secret of their success was simple - outhustle and outwork teams. Even if they're more physical than us. Of course, when the Rangers were not on their legs, they were defeated or they would squeak in barely. I think that they can be one of the top 10 teams in the NHL by the end of the regular season. Still, I've said it before and I'll say it again - this is a rebuild. Wins are an added bonus and are the result of superior goaltending, resurgent Jagr and hard work that Renney and staff tries to instill.

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12-12-2005, 10:12 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abev
I know we all have a hard time coming to grips with the Rangers success. We know they cant be good. If the Rangers actually win a game, their opponent either a) is a worse team or b) they had an off night or the ever popular c) the Rangers got lucky, with the sum of a+b+c = if they keep playing like this they wont win against the 'good' teams.
It's not that people are not coming to grips, it's just that some of the warts are being covered up fairly well. Yes, predominantly the Rangers work as hard as anyone as a team. However their success in games is predicated on the following 3 things: 1) goaltending 2) the PK 3) Jagr

When two of the three are working, the Rangers will be in most games. If two of the three do not show up, this team losses on most nights. Jagr has been a scoring machine and the emergence of Prucha has helped, but the team needs to have a 2nd line that other teams will respect enough to pay attention to. Right now, the other coaches are constantly sending their best defensemen and top defensive pairings against Jagr. Renney hands the other team the advantage every single night as he refuses to change on the fly or to utilize the last line change to get Jagr a more favorable line to play against.
The PP is putrid. It is a carbon copy of what we have seen here for the better part of the decade. It's a Hoosiers PP. 4 or 5 mandatory passes before every shot and every shot must be pretty and perfect.
Indisciplined play (penalties-wisee) has dogged this team the entire year and puts undue pressure on the PK. If the PK was to falter, this team would get blown out of a lot of games as you cannot simply take between 6 & 10 penalties each and every night.
The defense is mediocre at best. Tyutin and Drats are rookies and are learning. However, that still does not take away from the fact that by and large, the defense is helped by the work of backchecking forwards and goalies making outstanding saves. Rozsival and Malik are our top defensive pairing. Think on that. On most teams, they are third pair defensemen at best.
All of these things cannot be ignored. So, yes, the team is playing very well overall, but it's success seems to be made from the three factors listed above. Any long-term breakdown to them and the Rangers may well plummet.

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12-12-2005, 10:16 AM
  #4
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I think people accept the wins...

but demand more as they look to the future. Many feel, like I do, that teams will be getting better as the season moves along, and as players work out the kinks (although I'll say this again and again - goaltending has not been good this season). And we want to see the Rangers remain competitive and point out many of their shortcomings as adjustments that will need to be made to keep this up. Further, the reliance on a few players to come through every night is dangerous. It's worked thus far as goaltending has kept this team in many games, and Jagr seems to draw attention and produce, but the team needs more from others to remain competitive. It's nice to see wins for a change, and now that we've had a taste, we don't want to lose it, so remaining critical is important.

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12-12-2005, 10:36 AM
  #5
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Well, I'm happy for you guys. I think it's awesome that one of my favoruite teams is doing so well. I'm not trying to jinx anything, but I'll definetely be tuning in to hear that Rangers playoff crowdI can't wait! Good luck to you guys; you are patient, loyal, more-than-deserving fans and I hope that your success streak continues.

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Old
12-12-2005, 10:44 AM
  #6
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also, to add to what everyone here is replying to...

i think what we're looking for is consistently smooth play. good teams usually play smooth for a few games in a row win or lose, and often times that results in wins. even though the rangers are winning, there doesn't seem to be that "smoothness" about them.

i guess, in other words, what i'm trying to say is that the team does not appear to be "firing on all cylinders". in addition to the 3 things tb has said about our keys to success, what you don't see with them is all the other things consistently enough that you would think we need down the road this season. not enough secondary scoring, or not enough points from the defense, or not a flowing pp, or giving up odd-man breaks on the pp more often than you like, not even hitting, etc. ppl on this board argue all the time about line combos and defense pairings.

hell, even though we actually are one of the least penalized teams in the league this season (7th in fact...a hair better than detroit and a shade behind philly if you can believe it!) we do tend to see this team take unnecessary penalties or ill-timed ones.

and of course there's that underlying feeling of pessimism because of the disaster that has been the last 7 seasons.

but all in all, i think or at least would like to think that we are happy right now. it's important to remember this is a rebuild, and this is still season 1 of it. it's natural to expect to see everything come together more and more because of the success the team has had so far. it's understandable that everyone keeps themselves in reality check regarding the season because it's still early.

however, the one thing that ppl should take notice of more IMO is that this team has an identity about itself on both offense and defense. which i'll say is the biggest thing this team has missed in recent memory and is the reason why they are where they are. no matter how flawed they may still be, at least there is a plan for everything it seems and that alone i'd celebrate.

and the fact they are winning knowing who they are is just the icing on the cake.

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12-12-2005, 11:59 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyCaptain11
hell, even though we actually are one of the least penalized teams in the league this season (7th in fact...a hair better than detroit and a shade behind philly if you can believe it!) we do tend to see this team take unnecessary penalties or ill-timed ones.
Are you sure about that? Weren't the Rangers something like the 4th most penalized team as of a few weeks ago? 7th lowest does not see right. This team takes A LOT of obstruction/soft penalties.

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Old
12-12-2005, 12:09 PM
  #8
Fletch
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Tb...

they are the 7th lowest...http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/stats

lots of obstruction penalties for sure, but it does seem as though on most nights they have a man advantage compared to being a man down. One caveat though: this is penalty minutes. Other teams have had more fights, 10-minute misconducts, etc. than the Rangers. Times shorthanded is another story.

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12-12-2005, 12:11 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
but demand more as they look to the future. Many feel, like I do, that teams will be getting better as the season moves along, and as players work out the kinks (although I'll say this again and again - goaltending has not been good this season). And we want to see the Rangers remain competitive and point out many of their shortcomings as adjustments that will need to be made to keep this up. Further, the reliance on a few players to come through every night is dangerous. It's worked thus far as goaltending has kept this team in many games, and Jagr seems to draw attention and produce, but the team needs more from others to remain competitive. It's nice to see wins for a change, and now that we've had a taste, we don't want to lose it, so remaining critical is important.
How has the goaltending not been good?

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12-12-2005, 12:11 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Are you sure about that? Weren't the Rangers something like the 4th most penalized team as of a few weeks ago? 7th lowest does not see right. This team takes A LOT of obstruction/soft penalties.

we are the 12th lowest penalty taking team in the NHL

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/stats/by...stats&sort=409

that doesn't take into account the fact that we have mor egames played than everyone else.

error on my part that has been corrected.

Correct URL is

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/stats/by...ype=0&sort=408

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Old
12-12-2005, 12:12 PM
  #11
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Tb...

here's times shorthanded (the Rangers are behind only the Blackhawks; problem is, I do not have a per game figure - but even that would likely put the Rangers in the top half).

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12-12-2005, 12:14 PM
  #12
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Sorry for the confusion, Fire Sather...

goaltending of other teams - as the statement was used in the context that other teams will get better. I mentioned later that goaltending has kept the Rangers in many games.

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12-12-2005, 12:20 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
here's times shorthanded (the Rangers are behind only the Blackhawks; problem is, I do not have a per game figure - but even that would likely put the Rangers in the top half).
That's the problem. The Rangers have taken the 2nd most amount of penalties in the league behind Chicago (that is correct, right?). Considering that about 99% of them are the lazy obstruction type, that is a problem that Renney MUST correct. The undiscilpined play is putting too much pressure on the PK seemingly every night to be virtually perfect. That cannot continue. How many times have we see Rozsival (just one example) take a hooking penalty to put the team down 2 men? I think that I have see more 5 on 3's this year than in the last 5 combined.
You cannot just expect the PK to be perfect every night.

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12-12-2005, 01:41 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abev
But there's no reason in the world why we cant believe in this team, why we cant accept wins as wins and losses as one game in between win streaks.
Put another, simpler way: what is, is.

Some people try to hyper-analyze sports to the point of paralysis. Which is why they get uptight with Bill Parcell's renowned line that you are (as a team) what your record is.

Nothing more, nothing less.

So simple, so true. The idea is to win games. Period. NYR is doing so, regularly, through 2.5 months of this season.

The rest is BS, excuses and pretty meaningless, IMO.

If you are looking for perfection in this sport, in your team, you will never find it. And if the scars of the last seven seasons (with a nearly totally different cast) are so deep that people cannot believe and enjoy this magnificent start, you have my true sympathies.

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12-12-2005, 01:44 PM
  #15
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i stand corrected folks...

as previously pointed out the rangers are 7th in PIMS/game. but as fletch pointed out they are in the lower half of the league in times shorthanded.

they are currently 20th at an estimated 6.53 times/game.

believe it or not they are just behind montreal and ahead of teams like dallas, ottawa, nashville and the isles.

and yes, i did do the numbers-crunching myself. i have the day off from work

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12-12-2005, 01:49 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Put another, simpler way: what is, is.

Some people try to hyper-analyze sports to the point of paralysis. Which is why they get uptight with Bill Parcell's renowned line that you are (as a team) what your record is.

Nothing more, nothing less.

So simple, so true. The idea is to win games. Period. NYR is doing so, regularly, through 2.5 months of this season.

The rest is BS, excuses and pretty meaningless, IMO.

If you are looking for perfection in this sport, in your team, you will never find it. And if the scars of the last seven seasons (with a nearly totally different cast) are so deep that people cannot believe and enjoy this magnificent start, you have my true sympathies.
ahh trots, always a voice of reason on our board. i agree with you btw. and nice to quote my favorite coach in any sport...even if he is with the cowboys.

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12-12-2005, 01:55 PM
  #17
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I just hope they get into the playoffs where anything can happen

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12-12-2005, 03:02 PM
  #18
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Thanks Captain...

you did the crunching I was not willing to do. Good thing they have the #2 PK unit in the league.

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12-12-2005, 04:00 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Put another, simpler way: what is, is.

Some people try to hyper-analyze sports to the point of paralysis. Which is why they get uptight with Bill Parcell's renowned line that you are (as a team) what your record is.

Nothing more, nothing less.

So simple, so true. The idea is to win games. Period. NYR is doing so, regularly, through 2.5 months of this season.

The rest is BS, excuses and pretty meaningless, IMO.

If you are looking for perfection in this sport, in your team, you will never find it. And if the scars of the last seven seasons (with a nearly totally different cast) are so deep that people cannot believe and enjoy this magnificent start, you have my true sympathies.

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Old
12-12-2005, 04:51 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Put another, simpler way: what is, is.

Some people try to hyper-analyze sports to the point of paralysis. Which is why they get uptight with Bill Parcell's renowned line that you are (as a team) what your record is.

Nothing more, nothing less.

So simple, so true. The idea is to win games. Period. NYR is doing so, regularly, through 2.5 months of this season.

The rest is BS, excuses and pretty meaningless, IMO.

If you are looking for perfection in this sport, in your team, you will never find it. And if the scars of the last seven seasons (with a nearly totally different cast) are so deep that people cannot believe and enjoy this magnificent start, you have my true sympathies.

Nice post. I think part of the issue is a lot of people still have reserved doubts about the team. After all, the last seven seasons don't just up and disappear after a winning streak. How could a team predicted to be one of the bottom dwellers of the NHL be sharing the league lead with Ottawa just 2 and a half months in? It's almost too good to be true.

I've still got some doubt in the back of my mind. As bad as it sounds, I'm just waiting for Jagr to get injured and teams to figure out Lundqvist, followed by the standings tumble.

Provided the hard work is consistent and players show up to play night in and night out, I think the Rangers just may pull off ending that 7 year drought with some style and respect. If not, the vultures won't hesistate to show up.

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Old
12-12-2005, 07:17 PM
  #21
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I don't think it's hyper-analysis, I don't think it's failure to come to grips. I don't think it's any other catchy one liner someone throws out there to try and win quote of the week.

I think what it comes down to is that this, to some extent has overachieved. That's not a knock, that's not fear, it's something that isn't even that hard to comprehend. The question at the end of the day is to look and say "looking at this roster, should it be doing this good". The answer is no.

Having said that, it's a matter of growing and understanding that this team is GOING to go through growing pains at some point in order to become a legit cup contender. No more, no less really.

I think people are thrilled about the success, but you can be happy and realistic at the same time. The team has some holes that are being covered up well, but there are holes none the less. When you're flying a plane you don't say "Well we got up in the air and nothing fell off, so let's celebrate". There's more to it than that, and there are a few things that need to be addressed.

I'm happy about this team, but I also can see that this team is REALLY relying on two players. That's cool and it works, but you've got to be mindful of that and be aware that it can be a fragile thing.

I don't think anyone is comparing this team to the past, but I also think people understand that this is the begining not the climax.

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12-12-2005, 08:21 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edge
I'm happy about this team, but I also can see that this team is REALLY relying on two players. That's cool and it works, but you've got to be mindful of that and be aware that it can be a fragile thing.
I respect your opinion. And its a very popular one. Stopping short of saying I think you're way off, I will instead say I dont think its entirely true.

I assume the 2 players are Jagr and Lundqvist? Last time I checked JJ isnt on the ice for more than about 10 seconds of the PK. I dont wanna minimize Jagrs contribution, but this teams success is just as much Jed Ortmeyer and the energy line as it is JJ's and Henriks.

Now dont get me wrong here, the last thing I want is JJ out for any period of time, but I honestly beleive this team can still win *short term* without him.

You could argue that there are more than 15 players critical to this teams success, each bringing something to the ice that the other does not. Replacing any of them for a long period of time could be a real challenge.

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12-12-2005, 08:35 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Put another, simpler way: what is, is.

Some people try to hyper-analyze sports to the point of paralysis. Which is why they get uptight with Bill Parcell's renowned line that you are (as a team) what your record is.

Nothing more, nothing less.

So simple, so true. The idea is to win games. Period. NYR is doing so, regularly, through 2.5 months of this season.

The rest is BS, excuses and pretty meaningless, IMO.

If you are looking for perfection in this sport, in your team, you will never find it. And if the scars of the last seven seasons (with a nearly totally different cast) are so deep that people cannot believe and enjoy this magnificent start, you have my true sympathies.
They have my TRUE sympathies as well. Dispite all the warts being covered up fairly well this team knows how to win. The young players contribute in areas we haven't seen around here in years (penalty kill goaltending offense for that matter) Yes the putrid defense is covered up by backchecking they do have two young guys back there learning. This team will come back to earth a little bit but they will win more than they lose and hopefully finish in the top 8 for a playoff spot.

We all have our problems with the team but they are ones that some posters(not all) hammer home every day and night until they are BLUE in the face. If you can't be happy about this team than no ranger team can make you happy. we are watching young players develop into nhl players before our eyes. we are watching some young players develop into stars.

Remember folks this just the first wave of the rebuild. We have yet to see what Jessiman Montoya Korpedo, Dawes, Immonen and countless other will be when they are ready for the NHL.

This is an exciting time so be excited.

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12-12-2005, 08:38 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abev
I assume the 2 players are Jagr and Lundqvist? Last time I checked JJ isnt on the ice for more than about 10 seconds of the PK.
True but Lundqvist - the other player - is on for the entire penalty kill. There's a great deal of truth to the old saw: "The best penalty killer is the guy in the net."

Just as you don't wish to minimize Jagr's contribution, I don't want to minimize the contribution of guys like Ortmeyer. (He and Hollweg are possibly my favorite current Rangers.) Still Edge is speaking an essential truth: this team lives and dies on the contributions of Jagr and Lundqvist. When they're not "on," the team pretty generally loses.

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12-12-2005, 08:38 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
That's the problem. The Rangers have taken the 2nd most amount of penalties in the league behind Chicago (that is correct, right?). Considering that about 99% of them are the lazy obstruction type, that is a problem that Renney MUST correct. The undiscilpined play is putting too much pressure on the PK seemingly every night to be virtually perfect. That cannot continue. How many times have we see Rozsival (just one example) take a hooking penalty to put the team down 2 men? I think that I have see more 5 on 3's this year than in the last 5 combined.
You cannot just expect the PK to be perfect every night.
you do realize that some obstruction penalties save a goal and that our penalty kill is so good that it really doesn't matter?

the pk can handle the pressure seemingly everynight. I think the whole league this year has seen more 5 on 3 than the past 5 years combined. BIG DEAL!

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