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Pens@Wings GDT 12/12/05 7:30PM

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12-13-2005, 03:08 PM
  #76
doublejack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
You guys make it sound like he is some sort of liability out there. Like I said above...stop being so damn hard to please.
Lidstrom _is_ becoming less of an asset and more of a liability though. And like sarcastro indicated the cause is skill erosion. I don't point out the stick penalties & instances where lack of speed leads to a scoring chance for the other team as "mistakes" by Lidstrom. It's not Nick making an error in judgement. Guys are getting around Nick because they are much better skaters than he is, not because they're out-smarting him.

I'm not trying to overstate the speed issue, but it is real. Lidstrom used to be an average NHL skater imo, maybe slightly above average as far as defensemen go. He's not anymore, he's below average. Maybe the way the game is being called now is exposing that more and he's not really that much slower. I'm not buying that, but it's possible I guess. Either way, the net effect is the same - Nick is not the shut-down defender he was before. I'm sure he's adapted as good as he possibly can, and it's true he's done a better job adjusting than his peers, but he's still lost enough to not be considered elite anymore.

Now, I don't want to send him off the the glue factory. What I do want is for Nick to follow Stevie's example. Take a big paycut and accept a lesser role. Make room for the Wings to go after a stud to take over the reins. There's no double standard at all. I believe Nick can still play NHL level hockey, of course he can. But he's fallen off quite a bit from what he was, and presumably will continue the descent.

Ideally Nick will get a one year contract for a reasonable sum of money, around 3M. I would really, really hesitate to give a multi-year contract unless it's for less than that per year. Just like it's obvious this is Yzerman's last year, it will be the same with Lidstrom when his time comes. That's why I really think you go one year at a time.

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12-13-2005, 03:40 PM
  #77
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How can I change my username to "pylonnick"? This is so far beyond absurd I don't even know how to respond. I'm more than happy with Nick's abyssmal play and hope Holland/Ilitch are dumb enough to lock him in til he's 40.

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Old
12-13-2005, 03:48 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack
Lidstrom _is_ becoming less of an asset and more of a liability though.
wrong... nick still has the best hands on the team [next to lang], is the best passer, and his +/- is comparable to every other dman we have. i'm not saying he's the same player he was 5 years ago, but he's still a stud and i can think of 29 other gms that would give a nut to have this guy on their team.
he has 9 penalties this year... 9... in 31 games! care to count schneider's, or cheli's, or lilja's, or fisch's? everybody takes penalties and last i checked, nick falls in the category of everybody. whatever he's lost with age, he's gained with sage. he's still the best dman we've got, still one of the elite dmen in the league, and positively more of an asset than a liability.

now, i agree that he should take a big cut next year... 3-3.5mil sounds fair. he's not worth 7.6, never was worth 10. lesser role would be fine; put him out there for powerplays, pks, and some offensive-defensive shifts and let someone else handle the 'shut down' duties. he'd be much more effective in this type of role than the go-to guy he has to be at this point of his career.

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12-13-2005, 03:49 PM
  #79
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What's funny is for all this talk about Lidstrom losing "foot races", if you watch Center Ice and see Chara play on a game to game basis his game has it's weak points as well. And if anyone in here thinks Chara is anything close to Lidstrom was even a few years ago is insane. I watch guys like Blake and Leetch struggle all season and remain grateful Nick is still as efficient and smart a D-man as there is in this league. Case in point....let's look at Lidstrom against "big lines" he's been matched up against. What number 1 line has killed Detroit this season? The Naslund line in Vancouver when Bertuzzi dominated is the ONLY time a top line has had great success against Detroit. To those who say Lidstrom is no longer an elite D-man, tell that to the coaches who try to keep their top line away from him, especially at home with last change. This garbage about how Lidstrom cant skate anymore is beyond ridiculous. You know who cant skate? Hatcher cant skate. Ive seen Lidstrom lose foot races when he was winning the Norris year after year. There are some on this board with with a bias towards Lidstrom because of the money he makes, so they disparage his overall game to support their point about him being over-paid.

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Old
12-13-2005, 03:50 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
He was never fast, but he used to move pretty well. Now he doesn't really move much at all. If you saw the play I mentioned above, you'd probably agree with me. And it's not the first time that's happened this year. It's not about mistakes as much as it's about erosion of skill.

Other teams were lining up to throw money at guys like Bobby Holik, Marty Lapointe, and others. Just because there are GMs out there desperate enough to overpay grossly for players doesn't mean we should. See NY Rangers, 1995-2003.
There is no "erosion of skill". He is slower than he used to be. Thats it. What is the obsession with people skating fast on this board?

What is your problem with Lidstrom? It seems to go much deeper than him being slow. Every chance you get you give your theory on how fast his skills are eroding and how you cant wait until Chara comes to save the Wings D.

His "skills" are just fine. He can still shoot, pass and play terrific positional defense. He just doesnt do it as fast as he used to. Again...he used to be perfect. He isnt anymore. But he is still damn good.

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Old
12-13-2005, 03:50 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
This is so far beyond absurd I don't even know how to respond.
"good... let the hate flow through you"
agreed though

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Old
12-13-2005, 03:56 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro

You can't really question whether Kronwall or Lebda will pan out, because they both have. Kronwall has injury issues, but he has panned out. Quincey has played a couple games in Detroit this year and did not look out of place. I would say he has panned out also. The guys you don't know about are Kindl and some of the depth guys. There may be no studs if Kronwall can't stay healthy, but there are at least 2 solid depth guys. The lack of a sure-thing top guy is even more reason to go after Chara, who would anchor the D for years.
What do you mean Kronwall and Lebda have "panned out". Kronwall has 20 games of NHL experience and is returning from a serious knee injury. We have no clue what the future lies for him. He could be great...but its not a given. He hasnt panned out at all.

And Lebda? He is up here because of injuries. If not for Kronwall, Woolley and Fishcers injuries, and the fact that Rivers stinks, we wouldnt have even seen him up this year. He has been a good 3rd pairing guy, and has done an excellent job filling in for the Wings this year. But he isnt someone you want logging 20 minutes a game for the next 5+ years. He is a fringe NHL defensman. So...how has he panned out?

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12-13-2005, 04:04 PM
  #83
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We ALL agree that Lidstrom makes too much money. Hell...if you asked Lidstrom himself he would probably agree.

But his skills are still there. If people cant see that, then I dont really know what to tell them.

I love Chara too. But other than the physical aspect of his game, he doesnt bring anymore to the table than Lidstrom does. Wade Redden has been out of the Sens lineup for 2 weeks and I dont think Chara has stepped up his game at all in his absence. In fact, this tiny little losing stretch the Sens had coincides with Reddens injury. The Sens are going to have to choose between the 2 at the end of the year as to who they give thier big money to. Chara should be playing gigantic for them right now, but he hasnt stepped up much.

I agree that this whole thing is getting absurd. To me Nick Lidstrom is still EASILY in the Top 10 of all NHL defensmen. He is only 35. It isnt like he is 40. He has avoided physical contact his whole career, so you know he isnt wearing down from all the physical play over the years. Skating was never his best asset to begin with. I dont care that he is losing foot races. When he does lose them, he still ends up between the player and the net. Good, positional defense.

Again, I agree to disagree because I cant keep typing the same stuff over and over. He is getting slower and he is overpaid. Great...so what. He takes a pay cut next season and he still uses every other extraordinary skill that he has to remain among the leagues top defensmen. What is wrong with that scenario?

So, I am done. I have said all I can say about this subject. If people still disagree, well....

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Old
12-13-2005, 04:04 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8snake
What's funny is for all this talk about Lidstrom losing "foot races", if you watch Center Ice and see Chara play on a game to game basis his game has it's weak points as well. And if anyone in here thinks Chara is anything close to Lidstrom was even a few years ago is insane. I watch guys like Blake and Leetch struggle all season and remain grateful Nick is still as efficient and smart a D-man as there is in this league. Case in point....let's look at Lidstrom against "big lines" he's been matched up against. What number 1 line has killed Detroit this season? The Naslund line in Vancouver when Bertuzzi dominated is the ONLY time a top line has had great success against Detroit. To those who say Lidstrom is no longer an elite D-man, tell that to the coaches who try to keep their top line away from him, especially at home with last change. This garbage about how Lidstrom cant skate anymore is beyond ridiculous. You know who cant skate? Hatcher cant skate. Ive seen Lidstrom lose foot races when he was winning the Norris year after year. There are some on this board with with a bias towards Lidstrom because of the money he makes, so they disparage his overall game to support their point about him being over-paid.
I cant believe I am going to say this.

Snake...I agree with you.

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Old
12-13-2005, 04:08 PM
  #85
doublejack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacK
now, i agree that he should take a big cut next year... 3-3.5mil sounds fair. he's not worth 7.6, never was worth 10. lesser role would be fine; put him out there for powerplays, pks, and some offensive-defensive shifts and let someone else handle the 'shut down' duties. he'd be much more effective in this type of role than the go-to guy he has to be at this point of his career.
That's exactly what I'd like to see. It's the thought of throwing 5M or some obscene amount of money at Nick that I have a problem with.

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Old
12-13-2005, 04:14 PM
  #86
Higgy4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack
That's exactly what I'd like to see. It's the thought of throwing 5M or some obscene amount of money at Nick that I have a problem with.
Since Day 1 of this discussion, which was about a week ago, I have been saying that I want him back at around 4 million. I have agreed with everyone on that aspect.

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12-13-2005, 04:16 PM
  #87
norrisnick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack
That's exactly what I'd like to see. It's the thought of throwing 5M or some obscene amount of money at Nick that I have a problem with.
It's going to take $5M+ to replace him. Might as well give it to the guy that's already intimately familiar with the surroundings and team. And given the marketplace for defensemen, he's easily worth $5M.

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Old
12-13-2005, 04:21 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
It's going to take $5M+ to replace him. Might as well give it to the guy that's already intimately familiar with the surroundings and team. And given the marketplace for defensemen, he's easily worth $5M.
And to that I say replace him then. Get a much younger Chara for only a little more money. Spending 5M on Lidstrom next year would be absurd.

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Old
12-13-2005, 04:25 PM
  #89
norrisnick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack
And to that I say replace him then. Get a much younger Chara for only a little more money. Spending 5M on Lidstrom next year would be absurd.
It'll take the $7M+ to land Chara and even then there will be a handful of teams out there offering it to him. Letting Lidstrom walk because of $5M would be absurd.

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Old
12-13-2005, 05:03 PM
  #90
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Did most people's accounts get hacked by KL? I bet some would actually begin to believe the "puck poise" comment now, reading people slagging Lidstrom. Not worth the money he's making now, but it's sounds like some believe he's washed up.

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Old
12-13-2005, 05:11 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8snake
What's funny is for all this talk about Lidstrom losing "foot races", if you watch Center Ice and see Chara play on a game to game basis his game has it's weak points as well. And if anyone in here thinks Chara is anything close to Lidstrom was even a few years ago is insane. I watch guys like Blake and Leetch struggle all season and remain grateful Nick is still as efficient and smart a D-man as there is in this league. Case in point....let's look at Lidstrom against "big lines" he's been matched up against. What number 1 line has killed Detroit this season? The Naslund line in Vancouver when Bertuzzi dominated is the ONLY time a top line has had great success against Detroit. To those who say Lidstrom is no longer an elite D-man, tell that to the coaches who try to keep their top line away from him, especially at home with last change. This garbage about how Lidstrom cant skate anymore is beyond ridiculous. You know who cant skate? Hatcher cant skate. Ive seen Lidstrom lose foot races when he was winning the Norris year after year. There are some on this board with with a bias towards Lidstrom because of the money he makes, so they disparage his overall game to support their point about him being over-paid.
Well said

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Old
12-14-2005, 06:38 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
What do you mean Kronwall and Lebda have "panned out". Kronwall has 20 games of NHL experience and is returning from a serious knee injury. We have no clue what the future lies for him. He could be great...but its not a given. He hasnt panned out at all.

And Lebda? He is up here because of injuries. If not for Kronwall, Woolley and Fishcers injuries, and the fact that Rivers stinks, we wouldnt have even seen him up this year. He has been a good 3rd pairing guy, and has done an excellent job filling in for the Wings this year. But he isnt someone you want logging 20 minutes a game for the next 5+ years. He is a fringe NHL defensman. So...how has he panned out?
Kronwall has shown he's an NHL defenseman. He has injury problems, but that doesn't have anything to do with his skills. He is an NHL caliber defenseman when he's healthy. I consider that panning out. It's not like he never made it out of Europe or couldn't play above the AHL level - he's been outstanding in the games he's been in.

Lebda has been very good this year. He is in his first season and is playing a good amount of minutes in all situations. While he did get his chance while players were injured, he's been playing over Rivers and Woolley while both were healthy. That says something. He's got great wheels and handles himself pretty well in his own end. I'm not sure what your definition of "pan out" is, but he's proven himself to be an NHL defenseman. That's good enough for me. Even if he were only a fringe NHL defenseman, he still made it to the NHL and has found a niche. What more do you expect from an undrafted UFA rookie?

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