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NHLPA appeals Wideman suspension (UPD: Suspension reduced)

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Old
03-12-2016, 03:03 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
I'm not saying that the CBA leaves any options open. I'm just saying imo the length of the appeals process is ridiculous and it would have been even worse if the Flames were in a meaningful battle.

For those interested in the full text of the decision:
http://cdn.agilitycms.com/nhlpacom/A...%20Wideman.pdf
I remember Daly saying they offered earlier dates to get the appeal started and they were rejected by Wideman.
So he is partly to blame on the length. But even with that you'd have to think maybe 2 weeks would have been shaved off. But in the course of a normal two week schedule that still would have been 6 less games.

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03-12-2016, 04:41 PM
  #102
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It sounds like he got off due the NHL claiming his intent was to injure?

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03-12-2016, 04:59 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
It sounds like he got off due the NHL claiming his intent was to injure?
No one disputes the hit came. It's "intent" vs not (aka "incidental", as I would read it).

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03-12-2016, 05:09 PM
  #104
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No one disputes the hit came. It's "intent" vs not (aka "incidental", as I would read it).
Yes, which kind of seemed like splitting hairs. He raised his stick and deliberately hit him. Arbiter playing lawyer there with the intent wording. Should just say intentionally hitting, imho.

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03-12-2016, 05:17 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
It sounds like he got off due the NHL claiming his intent was to injure?
The NDA did not believe intent to injure was present, essentially buying the argument that Wideman was too concussed to reasonably know what he was doing, and decided to redefine the first part of rule 40.2 to require intent to injure, so he felt 40.3 was more appropriate.

It's one of the most baffling decisions I've ever read. Not because I disagree with it, but rather because it makes absolutely no sense.

Quote:
Commissioner Bettman states in his opinion that, “Mr. Wideman struck Mr. Henderson with the shaft of his stick and caused him injury.” As is clear from my analysis of the video, above, I do not share this interpretation of what the video shows
If that quote sounds insane, it's because it is. The NDA somehow ruled that Wideman did not “deliberately strike” Henderson but still found him guilty of 40.3 which would have required Wideman to "deliberately appl[y] physical force"

So Wideman's actions were a deliberate application of physical force, but not a strike, because to be a strike it would have had to be intentional. Somehow a deliberate application of physical force isn't intentional, that just doesn't make logical sense to me.

The quote from Bettman should be absolutely inarguable. Until it was released I had never once seen someone who would argue with the statement "Mr. Wideman struck Mr. Henderson with the shaft of his stick and caused him injury." because everyone knows what strike means (everyone except the NDA apparently)

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Old
03-12-2016, 05:52 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Yes, which kind of seemed like splitting hairs. He raised his stick and deliberately hit him. Arbiter playing lawyer there with the intent wording. Should just say intentionally hitting, imho.
Speaking of lawyers...Wideman may not want to spend that 10 games worth of salary he's getting back just yet.

Pretty clear incident with video evidence, his action leads to a severe injury and loss of ability for Henderson to earn income. Pretty open and shut, intent doesn't matter in civil court.

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03-12-2016, 06:27 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Yes, which kind of seemed like splitting hairs. He raised his stick and deliberately hit him. Arbiter playing lawyer there with the intent wording. Should just say intentionally hitting, imho.
I think this ruling just really shows how much an arbitrator will bend over backwards to side with labor.
I've seen some baffling rulings at times but this one might take the cake.

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03-12-2016, 06:38 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by BigZ65 View Post
Pretty clear incident with video evidence, his action leads to a severe injury and loss of ability for Henderson to earn income. Pretty open and shut, intent doesn't matter in civil court.
Well the arbiter's ruling still finds Wideman's actions fall within a "deliberate" application of physical force. Given that such an application is well outside the rules of hockey, leading to one of the largest suspensions ever for a player with a clean history, you'd think a civil suit is almost a guarantee to happen and it seems like Wideman is in a pretty rough spot in terms of liability.

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Old
03-12-2016, 07:35 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by BigZ65 View Post
Speaking of lawyers...Wideman may not want to spend that 10 games worth of salary he's getting back just yet.

Pretty clear incident with video evidence, his action leads to a severe injury and loss of ability for Henderson to earn income. Pretty open and shut, intent doesn't matter in civil court.
Came out today that Henderson will be out for the remainder of the year.

Wideman's first game back against the Coyotes went uneventfull for him. Wasn't much of a factor and the officials didn't look to nail him for the cheesiest of infractions.

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Old
03-13-2016, 01:11 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Carolinas Identity View Post
It should be. It's a joke.

If anything, they should have added games for his callous texts after they surfaced. I don't care if it's his fist time, what a jack ass.
The texts were sent out after his hearing after being railroaded by the media for several days and being unhappy with how the referee's union were in the hearing. Tt should never have had any bearing on any decision in the first place and is proof of nothing except that he left the original hearing frustrated.

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03-13-2016, 01:15 AM
  #111
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The texts were sent out after his hearing after being railroaded by the media for several days and being unhappy with how the referee's union were in the hearing. Tt should never have had any bearing on any decision in the first place and is proof of nothing except that he left the original hearing frustrated.
Regardless, he should have been smarter than that. Who does something like that that they know will be investigated and spouts off leaving a very easy to find concrete trail behind it?

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03-13-2016, 09:28 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Carolinas Identity View Post
Regardless, he should have been smarter than that. Who does something like that that they know will be investigated and spouts off leaving a very easy to find concrete trail behind it?
Please this was a blatant abuse of power by Bettman looking for excuses to uphold the suspension because he didn't want to **** the officials off. The entire way this has been handled has been a complete joke from the moment that the suspension was appealed.

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03-13-2016, 10:36 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by 100 Third Graders View Post
Please this was a blatant abuse of power by Bettman looking for excuses to uphold the suspension because he didn't want to **** the officials off. The entire way this has been handled has been a complete joke from the moment that the suspension was appealed.

Blatant abuse of power? The CBA seems to be quite clear on the matter. The only distinction was whether he intended to injure the official. No one contested that he did, and that it was strong enough to cause injury, and also cause a concussion.

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03-13-2016, 10:45 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Blatant abuse of power? The CBA seems to be quite clear on the matter. The only distinction was whether he intended to injure the official. No one contested that he did, and that it was strong enough to cause injury, and also cause a concussion.
Yeah, a blatant abuse of power. There was zero reason to obtain his text messages from after the hearing, his opinion about the media and officials after his public lynching whether it is allowed within the rules of the CBA or not. Being upset after a hearing means absolutely nothing in regards to what happened and the fact Bettman tried to use that as "evidence" of a lack of remorse is beyond ridiculous and Bettman even got called out on it by the arbitrator. So I stand by my opinion that Bettman abused his power to try and manipulate things.

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03-13-2016, 11:12 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by BigZ65 View Post
Speaking of lawyers...Wideman may not want to spend that 10 games worth of salary he's getting back just yet.

Pretty clear incident with video evidence, his action leads to a severe injury and loss of ability for Henderson to earn income. Pretty open and shut, intent doesn't matter in civil court.
has an nhl official ever sued a player for injury before? in any league?

and can someone help me better understand the context? certainly, this was an extraordinary event but is abuse of officials an increasing problem?

(btw, hats off to bettman. he comes out of this looking good.)

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03-13-2016, 12:03 PM
  #116
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has an nhl official ever sued a player for injury before? in any league?... and can someone help me better understand the context? certainly, this was an extraordinary event but is abuse of officials an increasing problem?
Not to my knowledge, nope. No NHL Official has ever tried to launch suit against a player for an injury sustained, be it deliberate or accidental in the entire history of the NHA & NHL. Theyve had cause to do so on a few occasions, couldve easily made cases with deliberate assaults (Billy Coutu, Maurice Richard amongst others). There freak situations. Over 100yrs, you can count on one hand the number of times a Ref or Linesman's been deliberately assaulted. Trash talked & threatened?... interminably. Death threats etc. Stuff youd never get away with saying on the street though that too at the NHL level cleaned up considerably since the 90's.

Only case Im aware of is a Referee in Manitoba (amateur, minor hockey) who launched a suit against a Coach in 2004 that is still winding its way through the courts and get this... its not as the result of an assault on the ice, in an arena, bar or parking lot, its for "Improper Line Change". That the Coach recklessly changed lines when the Ref was skating by, he made contact with a couple of players or something, hurt, injured, hasnt been able to Ref since. This guys been Reffing since 77 so its not like he's an ankle bender; neophyte who had no business Refereeing a game but still. Thats really pushing it. That theres a "Code". That Coaches should be concerned about the positioning of a Referee or Linesman on the ice before making a Line Change. I could see it if theres bodies all over the place right in front of your bench, veritable Yard Sale of sticks & gloves all over the place, pandemonium, Little Johnny wailing away on Little Bobby & no whistle then no, you dont go trying to change lines at that moment... but not on a Line Change on the Fly like that. Thats on the Ref/Linesman to avoid collisions, get out of the way.

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03-13-2016, 12:11 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by 100 Third Graders View Post
Yeah, a blatant abuse of power. There was zero reason to obtain his text messages from after the hearing, his opinion about the media and officials after his public lynching whether it is allowed within the rules of the CBA or not. Being upset after a hearing means absolutely nothing in regards to what happened and the fact Bettman tried to use that as "evidence" of a lack of remorse is beyond ridiculous and Bettman even got called out on it by the arbitrator. So I stand by my opinion that Bettman abused his power to try and manipulate things.

Well if "intent" is part of the wording or requirement to decide whether it's 10 games or 20, I would think that both the NHL and PA should do their due diligence and use any information legally available to them.


I think you might have more of a leg to stand on if the CBA didn't address the issue and even go into detail about how many games are warranted under a specific set of conditions. Intent is indeed hard to prove, so I think the NHL might want to clarify that going forward (in the CBA) to accommodate actual injury incurred. They do the same for player on player hits that result in injuries. They say the player has to be responsible for his position and equipment at all times, so even if there was no intent to injure, the fact that injuries happen often increase the amount of time they're suspended.

I understand why they'd have stiffer penalties for attacks on officials. They're much smaller, weaker and definitely not supposed to be looking out for hits the way a player in the game would be.

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03-13-2016, 12:28 PM
  #118
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... definitely not supposed to be looking out for hits the way a player in the game would be.
No, indeed not, though quite the art & science to officiating in terms of on-ice positioning. They work it like a grid pattern on the peripheries zone x zone. You will get the odd accidental full contact situations happening but again, absolutely freak. Its pretty hard to imagine or even begin to accept that this was accidental. The NHLOA is clearly pretty livid about it & rightfully so. Interesting. In the past as employee's of the NHL theyve generally towed whatever line the leagues put forth in cases of abuse of officials. Certainly under Clarence Campbell (he himself a one time NHL Referee who's on-ice career as an official was rather checkered), Ziegler & Bettman. The officials mute, never commenting on whatever justice was dispensed by the President/Commissioner. Code of silence. I wonder though, in this age of litigation.... if this doesnt wind up before the bench in civil action by the aggrieved who's career could well be over. Like the case in Manitoba, the McSorley ~ Brashear, Bertuzzi ~ Moore cases etc, arguing that hockey is just by nature, full contact... a potentially injurious sport & be you a player or an official the moment you step out on the ice you tacitly (and silently) accept these risks. That includes deliberate assaults though with the latter obviously EXCLUDING Linesmen & Referee's.


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03-13-2016, 01:29 PM
  #119
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03-13-2016, 01:44 PM
  #120
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Well if "intent" is part of the wording or requirement to decide whether it's 10 games or 20, I would think that both the NHL and PA should do their due diligence and use any information legally available to them.


I think you might have more of a leg to stand on if the CBA didn't address the issue and even go into detail about how many games are warranted under a specific set of conditions. Intent is indeed hard to prove, so I think the NHL might want to clarify that going forward (in the CBA) to accommodate actual injury incurred. They do the same for player on player hits that result in injuries. They say the player has to be responsible for his position and equipment at all times, so even if there was no intent to injure, the fact that injuries happen often increase the amount of time they're suspended.

I understand why they'd have stiffer penalties for attacks on officials. They're much smaller, weaker and definitely not supposed to be looking out for hits the way a player in the game would be.
I have no idea why you are going on about this (again), you have yet to say a single thing in either of your replies to actually address what I am saying. I am talking about nothing more than the text messages and Bettman's use of them to manipulate whether or not Wideman was sincere in his apologies. I am not debating intent or the length of the suspension, just the blatant manipulation of text messages sent after the hearing by Bettman.

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03-13-2016, 03:29 PM
  #121
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I think the main thing here people are ignoring is that, while I know the League said it was going to buy out older officials (Henderson is 47 iirc), but word is that that game is likely the last one he will ever officiate.

I have no love lost for the officials of this league, but Wideman essentially sent one to an early retirement because he was mad he got hit, then to rub in a little salt, gave a crocodile tear laden apology.

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03-13-2016, 09:01 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
has an nhl official ever sued a player for injury before? in any league?

and can someone help me better understand the context? certainly, this was an extraordinary event but is abuse of officials an increasing problem?

(btw, hats off to bettman. he comes out of this looking good.)
Best example from pro sports is the opposite. Injury caused by negligence on the league and an official. Orlando Brown vs. the NFL. Brown was hit in the eye by ball bearings used to weigh down the penalty marker. Sued the league, settled for $20ish million dollars, so lost wages a bit more in an American court.

Moore v. Bertuzzi would be a good one to look at as well. Similar situation where an incident occurred that is relatively out of the realm of what is expected of anyone setting blade on the ice. Doesn't really matter if the complainant is a ref, player, whoever. In this case they are individuals. That case was settled out of court in 2014 and the terms of settlement are shrouded by a confidentiality agreement.

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03-14-2016, 12:13 AM
  #123
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I think the main thing here people are ignoring is that, while I know the League said it was going to buy out older officials (Henderson is 47 iirc), but word is that that game is likely the last one he will ever officiate.

I have no love lost for the officials of this league, but Wideman essentially sent one to an early retirement because he was mad he got hit, then to rub in a little salt, gave a crocodile tear laden apology.
It's Wideman's fault now that the league is buying out older officials? C'mon CI, that is 100% on the league.

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03-14-2016, 01:42 AM
  #124
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It's Wideman's fault now that the league is buying out older officials? C'mon CI, that is 100% on the league.
Being bought out is on the League, true. But being forced to retire ~1 year earlier because someone had a tantrum is a different ball park all together.

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03-14-2016, 10:01 AM
  #125
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Well if "intent" is part of the wording or requirement to decide whether it's 10 games or 20, I would think that both the NHL and PA should do their due diligence and use any information legally available to them.


I think you might have more of a leg to stand on if the CBA didn't address the issue and even go into detail about how many games are warranted under a specific set of conditions. Intent is indeed hard to prove, so I think the NHL might want to clarify that going forward (in the CBA) to accommodate actual injury incurred. They do the same for player on player hits that result in injuries. They say the player has to be responsible for his position and equipment at all times, so even if there was no intent to injure, the fact that injuries happen often increase the amount of time they're suspended.

I understand why they'd have stiffer penalties for attacks on officials. They're much smaller, weaker and definitely not supposed to be looking out for hits the way a player in the game would be.
The part I can't figure out is that the "intent" part of intent to injure as written in the by-law doesn't actually state that intent is required, only that the player apply enough force so that an injury could reasonably be expected as an outcome, not that injury had to occur. I think it's very reasonable that if you apply force with both hands and a stick to the back of an unsuspecting person near the boards that injury could be reasonably expected, intent to injure or no.

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