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Old
12-16-2005, 05:19 AM
  #1
Osprey
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Articles for 12/16/05

This is a sad bunch of articles. They remind us that these veterans that we're sometimes so callous towards are actually human and taking their performance worse than even the worst of us would wish upon someone.

L.A. Times - Left Out in the Cold (note that there are 3 pages to this article)
Quote:
Shouldn't Robitaille, simply out of respect for his smarts and skills, be given more than one second on a power play?

And, while the team is struggling, shouldn't Roenick be given more consistent chances to find some shade of his former greatness?

Murray thinks not.
...
"Nobody is entitled to anything," Murray said. "Nobody."
Some may cheer at this, but this is also the philosophy that leaves the Kings looking like an expansion team of only checkers and grinders on many nights. Also, the quote seems to conflict with the strategy of putting JR on the top line.
------------

L.A. Daily News - Vanishing Act for Robitaille
Quote:
Murray made his message clear, although players seemed more eager to actually play than listen.
Not really the subject of the article, but just a sentence that I think is telling.
------------

L.A. Times - Can a Red Wing Inspire Kings?
Quote:
Coach Andy Murray read a lengthy quote by Yzerman — and provided copies — during a team meeting Thursday, the gist of which was "accepting roles."
Weee, take-home copies. How long until we see another "I play my best hockey when..." assignment?
------------

L.A. Times - Demitra Admits His Guilt, but Rule Remains a Sticking Point
Quote:
"We'll never have another illegal stick," Coach Andy Murray said. "[Players] were living on borrowed time. I told [equipment manager] Peter Millar, 'No more illegal sticks.' "
I suppose we can expect the skilled Kings players to be worse from now on?


Last edited by Osprey: 12-16-2005 at 05:42 AM.
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Old
12-16-2005, 10:23 AM
  #2
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Quote:
"Nobody is entitled to anything," Murray said. "Nobody."
Wow. Harsh.

Quote:
"We'll never have another illegal stick," Coach Andy Murray said. "[Players] were living on borrowed time. I told [equipment manager] Peter Millar, 'No more illegal sticks.' "
That's probably a good plolicy...Is the advantage of an illegally curved stick really that much greater than that of a legal one? There are players whose stick are barely curved at all...why would you even keep them on the bench?

Quote:
Coach Andy Murray read a lengthy quote by Yzerman — and provided copies — during a team meeting Thursday, the gist of which was "accepting roles."
Cama...no, Dempsey and a pick for Yzerman. Then we can have our very own Grumpy Old Men line...just like the Stars used to with Hull and Muller... and...and...achcjdjhfdfu.......oh excuse me.

Except ours would be called the Decrepid Old Men who can't skate, knows things will get better, but have accepted their role line.


Last edited by kingsfan25: 12-16-2005 at 10:30 AM.
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Old
12-16-2005, 10:41 AM
  #3
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Murray made his message clear, although players seemed more eager to actually play than listen.
That tells me a lot right there. Someone else, who has move inside info than all of us put together, also thinks that the players have tuned out AM.

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12-16-2005, 10:47 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45
That tells me a lot right there. Someone else, who has move inside info than all of us put together, also thinks that the players have tuned out AM.
So you've got a coach who's been sidelined by his team, and a team that's pretty average for the NHL playing below average hockey. What does the organization's brain trust do?

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Old
12-16-2005, 12:04 PM
  #5
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So the players would rather play than listen to their coach talk. You guys think there is something novel about that? That's describing everything professional athlete in the world.

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Old
12-16-2005, 01:58 PM
  #6
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It's FAR more a function of the players NOT playing to their abilities right now than ineffective coaching.

When talented people are playing to their abilities and not winning games - that's a coaching failure. That's a system failure. That's NOT what's happening during this slump, save for the power play (which is a system failure and a coaching failure because it has not been working all season). 5 on 5 and on the PK - the system works. The Kings are one of the best 5 on 5 teams in hockey. Our PK HAS been steller - the players aren't pulling their weight.

Miller, Gleason, Belanger, Cowan and Avery have been playing lights out hockey through this current slump. They seem to have gotten the coaches message - play lights out hockey while you're on the ice. That's a nice mix of long tme veterans and relative new guys listening to their coach and at the same time understanding what's needed of them. They're setting the example. Where's the rest of the team?

Here's a quote from Miller - one of the few players worth listening to because he's one of the few actually pulling his weight right now...

http://www.dailynews.com/kings/ci_3313366

"He's just trying to get us going and playing better, but ultimately it comes down to us," Aaron Miller said. "Coaches can only do so much. It's the players who have to take more responsibility.

"We just have to go out and do it. Hopefully we're to that point, because we certainly have talked enough."


- T


Last edited by TonySCV: 12-16-2005 at 02:03 PM.
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Old
12-16-2005, 02:10 PM
  #7
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BYE BYE AM. Frankly, you can only treat NHLers like they are preschoolers for so long. I bet there would be 12 guys in that locker room who would play monster games after he leaves.

Hate it or love it, anyone that knows an NHL knows they are a special breed...they have to have their egos massaged, and have to be treated with a certain amount of deference and respect. Giving assignments like, "I Play My Best Hockey When.." Are you kidding me?

Hey, I've never coached in the NHL, so AM has that on me. BUT unless you have some serious credentials, ala Scott Bowman, its hard to swallow crap like this from AM.


WHAT has he ever done in his NHL coaching career? Made the second round once?

Adios Andy.

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Old
12-16-2005, 02:11 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV
It's FAR more a function of the players NOT playing to their abilities right now than ineffective coaching. Wen talented people are playing to their abilities and not winning games - that's a coaching failure. That's a system failure. That's NOT what's happening during this slump, save for the power play (which is a system failure and a coaching failure because it has not been working all season). 5 on 5 and on the PK - the system works. The Kings are one of the best 5 on 5 teams in hockey. Our PK HAS been steller - the players aren't pulling their weight.

Miller, Gleason, Belanger and Avery have been playing lights out hockey through this current slump. They seem to have gotten the coaches message - play lights out hockey while you're on the ice.

Here's a quote from Miller - one of the few players worth listening to because he's one of the few actually pulling his weight right now...

http://www.dailynews.com/kings/ci_3313366

"He's just trying to get us going and playing better, but ultimately it comes down to us," Aaron Miller said. "Coaches can only do so much. It's the players who have to take more responsibility.

"We just have to go out and do it. Hopefully we're to that point, because we certainly have talked enough."

- T
Good points. But if the players don't work for AM's system, and many have left. Than what's the real problem? Confidence in the NHL is simple.......ICE TIME! JR and Luc are not getting ice time, and when they do it's short lived. Either move the players or AM needs to grab his balls and play top tier players with top tier minutes regardless of the outcome. We're already struggling but we seem to struggle worse when every year we have third line players playing top line roles. It makes no sense at all.
I do agree that JR is struggling as is Luc. Well, either management need to remove them or AM needs to play them......and that means playing them in top three units. I've seen this trend far to long, but the coach really needs to look in the mirror and realize that he has some artists, and he has some blue collar guys. He tries to make everybody blue collar......not going to happen, just ask Bure!

AM should put the original pre-season line with JR, Cammy, and Frolov as line 1 or 2. Demitra with Conroy and possibly Army or Luc. Line three Avery, Belanger, and Brown........If were not going to get active via trade, than AM needs to buck up and play the players, where they belong.

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Old
12-16-2005, 02:12 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV

Miller, Gleason, Belanger, Cowan and Avery have been playing lights out hockey through this current slump. They seem to have gotten the coaches message - play lights out hockey while you're on the ice.
- T

Yeah unfortunately we need Demitra, Frolov, Roenick, Visnovsky, Conroy, Norstrom, etc. if we are going to be a winner.

I'm glad the 4th line got AM's message though...

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12-16-2005, 02:43 PM
  #10
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Maybe we should higher Steveie Y as coach? AM has always been the type to try and fit round pieces into square holes. Not sure if he's the whole problem here though.

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Old
12-16-2005, 02:45 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_17
Giving assignments like, "I Play My Best Hockey When.." Are you kidding me?
I guess you forgot we went on a huge winning streak right after that happened, and made the playoffs, etc.

Here's the deal: players act like high schoolers ---> they get treated like high schoolers ---> they feel humiliated ---> they get pissed off ---> they start playing better

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Old
12-16-2005, 04:48 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearney
I guess you forgot we went on a huge winning streak right after that happened, and made the playoffs, etc.

Here's the deal: players act like high schoolers ---> they get treated like high schoolers ---> they feel humiliated ---> they get pissed off ---> they start playing better

How about players act like highschoolers--> they get treated like high schoolers--> they feel humiliated-->they get pissed off-->they start playing better-->they eventually slump-->they get treated like highschoolers-->they act like highschoolers

It's called Expectancy Theory. People live up to the expectations that are put before them. Obviously, this team has tuned AM out. It's close to being a well-known fact.

Making the playoffs? What was that? 3 years ago? That's no reason right to support AM. What have you done for us lately, Andy? Besides getting of to a good start, on the hand of a hot goaltender and a schedule against the weaker sisters of the NHL?

The time has come for a change.

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Old
12-16-2005, 05:01 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_17
It's called Expectancy Theory. People live up to the expectations that are put before them. Obviously, this team has tuned AM out. It's close to being a well-known fact.

AM, like all coaches, can't win.

If the team goes into a slump and he tries to reorganize then he is being to mean to the players and should be fired.

If the team goes into a slump and he doesn't do anything the he isn't doing anything and should be fired.

I think that AM has done everything that you can do for Luc and Roenick. He gave them PP time, gave them 1st/2nd line time, put them with the great talent on the team. Nothing has worked. We are almost half way threw the season. This is the time to reevaluate our talent and see what we need to move and what we need to find.

I want to minimize the time I spend watching Roenick fall down or Luc getting crushed.

AM is in the end right. This is professional sports. You either perform or someone else takes your job. Its not like AM doesn’t know that means him as well…

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Old
12-16-2005, 07:10 PM
  #14
Osprey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearney
I guess you forgot we went on a huge winning streak right after that happened, and made the playoffs, etc.
Here's a quote from the Sporting News, November 18th, 2001:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sporting News
Now what, coach? Kings coach Andy Murray asked his players to do a written assignment last week to fill in the blank -- "When I play my best hockey, I ... ." He wanted to get his players thinking about their jobs and their accountability.

He thought it worked -- at least briefly. But after Saturday’s 4-2 loss to Detroit, Murray was in an altogether different mood. He wondered if owner Philip Anschutz could find a way out of paying his players for being outshot 33-10 and basically not showing up for work.

"They were an insult to every parent that's ever taken their kid to play in a hockey game at 5:30 in the morning, like their parents did for them,” Murray told the Los Angeles Times.
I'm not sure where you get that the homework assignment led to a "huge winning streak." This quote suggests that they stunk as badly afterwards as before. Regardless, the assignment was at the very beginning of the season, leaving a lot of time for other things to go right... and barely squeezing in (at #7, wasn't it?) to the playoffs doesn't particularly impress me.

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Old
12-16-2005, 11:11 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_17
What was that? 3 years ago?
You're the one that brought it up as if it was yesterday.

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12-16-2005, 11:14 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey
I'm not sure where you get that the homework assignment led to a "huge winning streak."
I believe the incident happened after the Nov 1 loss to Chicago. It was the Kings' 5th straight loss, giving them a record of 3-10-1.

After that, they went 37-17-10 to finish the season 40-27-11.

37-17-10 was what I referred to as a "huge winning streak." I guess we can debate semantics but I stand by it.

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12-16-2005, 11:25 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearney
37-17-10 was what I referred to as a "huge winning streak." I guess we can debate semantics but I stand by it.
But my point is that things obviously didn't turn around just after the assignment. Gimmicks designed to send messages don't have a timer that makes players suddenly "get it" weeks later; they either work immediately or they don't. Something else got the team back on track.

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12-16-2005, 11:33 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey
But my point is that things obviously didn't turn around just after the assignment. Gimmicks designed to send messages don't have a timer that makes players suddenly "get it" weeks later; they either work immediately or they don't. Something else got the team back on track.
Oh, I agree. I think AM probably did a lot of different things to get the team back on track. I'm certainly not saying the school assignment was some kind of magic bullet.

The point is: Murray's faced this kind of situation before and successfully turned it around, using a variety of techniques. I'm relatively optimistic he can do it again.

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12-17-2005, 12:20 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearney
The point is: Murray's faced this kind of situation before and successfully turned it around, using a variety of techniques.
I don't share that view. Murray struggles multiple times every season to turn the team around and almost always fails, IMO. Take a look at '00-'01 and how nothing Murray tried mid-season could salvage a doomed season. DT then traded for Potvin and Felix turned things around (or, maybe, more accurately, the team played for Felix when they wouldn't play for Andy), and, later, trading Blake and Reinprecht for Miller and Deadmarsh propelled them into the playoffs. Also, take a look at the tail end of last season. Nothing Murray tried turned the Kings' skid around. They went from playoff contention to losing 11 straight. When the team could've used the "successful" motivation that you're speaking of, he let them down and never pulled the Kings out of that tailspin. The team just doesn't respond to AM and there are many examples from the last 4 seasons.


Last edited by Osprey: 12-17-2005 at 03:40 AM.
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Old
12-17-2005, 03:10 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearney
You're the one that brought it up as if it was yesterday.
What are you talking about?

"Making the playoffs? What was that? 3 years ago? That's no reason right to support AM." Is what I said...

Sorry if you misunderstood this. It's a 'what have you done for me lately' statement, brother.

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Old
12-17-2005, 11:27 AM
  #21
Kearney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_17
It's a 'what have you done for me lately' statement, brother.
Then why are you (and others) so obsessed with the 'school' assignment (which was 4 years ago and seems to have contributed to a huge turnaround at the time)?

Maybe Murray indeed should be replaced now, based on his current actions. I'm open to having a rational discussion about that.

But you guys are ridiculously dredging up past examples - and to boot they are examples where Murray succeeded! It's like arguing with women.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey
I don't share that view. Murray struggles multiple times every season to turn the team around and almost always fails, IMO. Take a look at '00-'01 and how nothing Murray tried mid-season could salvage a doomed season. DT then traded for Potvin and Felix turned things around (or, maybe, more accurately, the team played for Felix when they wouldn't play for Andy), and, later, trading Blake and Reinprecht for Miller and Deadmarsh propelled them into the playoffs. Also, take a look at the tail end of last season. Nothing Murray tried turned the Kings' skid around. They went from playoff contention to losing 11 straight. When the team could've used the "successful" motivation that you're speaking of, he let them down and never pulled the Kings out of that tailspin. The team just doesn't respond to AM and there are many examples from the last 4 seasons.
It's clear to me that you are among the people who will NEVER give Murray credit for the team's successes and ALWAYS give him the blame for the team's failures.

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12-17-2005, 11:13 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearney
Then why are you (and others) so obsessed with the 'school' assignment (which was 4 years ago and seems to have contributed to a huge turnaround at the time)?
Obsessed? That's a strong word, K.

My point was, if you read between the lines, that AM's antics are growing thin for this team. This has been a culmination of events, stuff that has happened over years. That kind of crap with the assignment can be worked once or twice, but treating players as children eventually wears thin. Hence the vets that can't seem to swallow AM's coaching style.

Using an example of what AM did 4 years ago to show a culmination of negative events has NOTHING to do with asking what he has done for me lately. For one, he has done nothing positive for me recently, and I was using a negative example from a long time ago that had pissed me off. There is NO rational connection between these arguments, with the exception of time.

Context is key, my friend. Context.

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