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Official GDT: Avs @ Rangers 12-18-05 5PM start

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Old
12-19-2005, 08:25 AM
  #176
True Blue
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Originally Posted by Shadowtron
The crowd was dead because the effort wasn't there. Maybe the game looked different to you live than it did on my TV, but it was a zombie show for the Rangers last night. Very uninspiring performance. The team that came out against Vancouver decided to stay home last night.
Something like that. Yes, the Rangers had effort. But not for 60 minutes. There was effort in the 3rd. There was effort and rust in the 1st. The 2nd period harkened back to the last 8 years. The Rangers are nowhere near as talented as Colorado. Or lots of other teams for that matter. If they want to win, then they need to work for all of 60 minutes. When they have done that this season, they have mostly won. When they have not, you get a result like last night's.
Rucchin is not a 2nd line center. But let's not kid ourselves please. Neither is Moore. Moore is exactly what he is now. A good 3rd/4th line player. Helminen is ready to be at least his twin. No, the Rangers best choice for a 2nd line center is in Hartford and his name is Immonen. But because there were too many veterans signed to what should have been a rebuilding team, there is no room for him. Immonen is a playmaker and could should be paired with Prucha to give the Rangers to scoring lines instead of one top line, one 3rd line & 2 4th lines. If Rucchin and Nieminen have any value whatsoever, they should be moved if for no other reason that Immonen will have a chance and Hollweg need not worry about getting benched.
Drats should be playing every game IMO.
When will Malik figure how to clear his zone without going through the middle? Rozsival.....well, what can you say? I never thought that I would dream of a Strudwick taking someone like his place.
Jagr, goaltending & the PK.....the three keys every night. When two of the three are not fantastic, the Rangers loose. Jagr was shut down (I am beginning to place more and more blame on Renney for contributing to that) and the PK was not perfect. Result? A loss to a much more talented team.

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12-19-2005, 08:26 AM
  #177
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Great job of hustle....and then realize that he now has 1 non-empty net goal in 27 games and 1 assist in his last 14. Does it matter who replaces him in the lineup? Who couldn't reproduce those results?
For that matter what has Betts, Moore, Ward, Neimenen, Ortmeyer or Rucchin done offensively lately. Not much more than Hossa, right? Should they all sit? You harp on Hossa, yet you fail to see that playing with Rucchin would probably kill most scorers stats. Lets face it other than Jagr's line and Prucha most of our forwards have been less than impressive in the offensive zone. Rangers have a history of taking offensive players and misusing them. How quickly we've forgotten how we managed to take Lucky Luc and strip him of most of his offensive abilities only to have him magically get them back once he left New York. You want to give a guy like Hossa a decent chance to develop? Put him with a center who can get him the puck with time and space in the offensive zone. Until then you're just wasting the kids talent.

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12-19-2005, 08:36 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by JerseyRangers
For that matter what has Betts, Moore, Ward, Neimenen, Ortmeyer or Rucchin done offensively lately. Not much more than Hossa, right? Should they all sit?
Whoa, whoa, whoa. You are not seriously comparing Hossa to Ortmeyer or Moore or Betts, right? You cannot compare someone who plays exclusively on the 2nd line to the teams 3rd & 4th liners. Their job description is FAR different than that of Hossa. His sole purpose on this team is not to play physical or defend against the other teams top forwards or to create energy. His one and only purpose is to create offensive chances and score points. I am no looking for a 50 goal scorer here. Just someone who will get more than 1 point in 14 games or one goal in 27 games while playing on the second line.
Comparing Hossa to someone of Ortmeyer's talent level is laughable.

"You harp on Hossa, yet you fail to see that playing with Rucchin would probably kill most scorers stats."

I know that Prucha has some PP goals, however, he created much more and he was paired with Betts and Ward (in the past). Rucchin, for all of his shortcomings, has more offensive talent than Betts does.

"Lets face it other than Jagr's line and Prucha most of our forwards have been less than impressive in the offensive zone. "

You cannot look to your 3rd & 4th liners to be leading the way on the score sheet.

"You want to give a guy like Hossa a decent chance to develop?"

1 goal in 27 games, while playing nowhere but the 2nd line. I'd say he has recieved his chance.

"Put him with a center who can get him the puck with time and space in the offensive zone."

At some point, Hossa has to take the responsibility for Hossa. Those paltry numbers cannot only be blamed on his linemates. Lundmark was run ouf of town and burned in effigy on this board for much less.

"Until then you're just wasting the kids talent."

When you look at Hossa's season, don't you think that there is something else going on here besides management wasting his talent? Did Montreal waste it as well?

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12-19-2005, 08:53 AM
  #179
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I think that the effort was not there. And it hasn't been consistently for about three and half weeks now. If Prucha or Jagr doesn't score, this team is going to struggle to win.

Not a whole lot has changed since the beginning of the season. Sure Lundqvist has proven to be a trememdous NHL goalie, Prucha has proven to be a good find, Ward, Moore, Ortmeyer, and Hollweg have shown to be solid role players. Save that, it still remains that this team is not good enough offensively to win a shoot-out and not good enough defensively to try and shut down and counter. What they can do is outwork any team on anynight. But they're not.

And if this PK ever begins to falter the fact that the PP is not producing will be magnified tenfold.

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12-19-2005, 08:59 AM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Whoa, whoa, whoa. You are not seriously comparing Hossa to Ortmeyer or Moore or Betts, right? You cannot compare someone who plays exclusively on the 2nd line to the teams 3rd & 4th liners. Their job description is FAR different than that of Hossa. His sole purpose on this team is not to play physical or defend against the other teams top forwards or to create energy. His one and only purpose is to create offensive chances and score points. I am no looking for a 50 goal scorer here. Just someone who will get more than 1 point in 14 games or one goal in 27 games while playing on the second line.
Comparing Hossa to someone of Ortmeyer's talent level is laughable.
What number a line have doesn't matter much. Compare the icetime instead, in this case 5 on 5. Hossa have a more offensive role then Ward for example, thats true, but its not like thoose guys plays all that defensively. They pursuit the puck pretty hard all over the ice.

When we are in positions like last night and Hossa doesn't score, then its worriesome...

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12-19-2005, 09:00 AM
  #181
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SoS...

I fine with disagreeing - as I didn't see the effort - and there is a difference between skating fast and effort. With effort, you fight for the puck, you battle for the loose pucks, and you often win them. The Avs were playing the second in two nights on the road - a bit tired one would think - the Rangers were playing on home ice after being off for some time. The Rangers weren't winning the battles and weren't getting to the puck (And drawing three PPs is somewhat indicative of that). The lack of effort may be a reason why the building you were in was so quiet.

As for Jagr - I do agree that if you added up the ages of this team and divded by the number of people, the team is relatively young. But that doesn't mean you play Jagr 24-25 minutes per night, nor doe sit mean that Straka and Nylander, who haven't been producing should get more than 20 minutes either. I've been worried about the over-dependence of Jagr since day 1, and while it's not time to push the panic buttom, Renney's needs to figure out how to get some scoring from this team.

Jagr made a funny statement in regards to how many 20 goal scorers this team lacks - an obvious push for Sykora, but let's see how many they have: There's Jagr, his boy Straka (four season, two more above 18), his girlfriend Nylander (a couple, on pace for 20 this season), Rucinsky (four times, on pace for about 20), and Rucchin (3 20s and 3 19s). Might as well add Prucha since he's at 15 with nearly 50 games left to play. That's six. That's not enough 20 goal scorers?

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12-19-2005, 09:03 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
I think that the effort was not there. And it hasn't been consistently for about three and half weeks now. If Prucha or Jagr doesn't score, this team is going to struggle to win.

Not a whole lot has changed since the beginning of the season. Sure Lundqvist has proven to be a trememdous NHL goalie, Prucha has proven to be a good find, Ward, Moore, Ortmeyer, and Hollweg have shown to be solid role players. Save that, it still remains that this team is not good enough offensively to win a shoot-out and not good enough defensively to try and shut down and counter. What they can do is outwork any team on anynight. But they're not.

And if this PK ever begins to falter the fact that the PP is not producing will be magnified tenfold.
This game is exactly why I disagree with the ain't-broke-don't-fix-it crowd.

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12-19-2005, 09:07 AM
  #183
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Agreed SBoB...

and where were the adjustments to the PP? Looked very similar. He tried Betts to win a faceoff - made sense given that Betts is this team's #1 faceoff guy, but then again, how is he on offensive draws? I know Prucha's actually been damn good on PP/offensive draws. But that was the only adjustment I saw.

And the only thing that's changed is Renney called Prucha up from Hartford, and finally gave him minutes on the ice - which is no genius since we in here were scratching our heads in regards to his 7 minutes with Moore and Ortmeyer, and his demotion.

The organization has the tools to be better. Rucchin's not going; call-up Immonen or Helminen for a couple games. At worst, Rucchin gets a wake-up call. At best, he becomes expendable. Re-work the PP; get a couple units out there. Don't use Straka on the point. Rozsival, Poti, Tyutin and 'Drats are more than capable at working the point - if they get the chances. There are other little things. The shame is that these aren't drastic changes that change the way this team has been winning: scoring from Jagr (and Prucha of late), goaltending and penalty killing. It's like years past - coach tries to create his plan/team around one guy - thankfully this guy isn't 43 years old and he's healthy and dangerous, but no real changes are being made.

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12-19-2005, 09:09 AM
  #184
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If it ain't broke...

you can still improve it. But it's broke - this team is not generate enough quality offensive opportunities. Trading a goalie, or changing out the PK forwards is different. Getting a second line to score, or getting a PP quarterback, or a quality defenseman (and I mean quality - which is likely not available), is not changing something that ain't broke.

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Old
12-19-2005, 09:26 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
Has the NHL changed the guidelines for what qualifies as a PS? I remember before the lockout, you basically had to be in alone on a breakaway and denied a legitament scoring chance. I didn't see either of those last night.

The Rangers looked very unorganized and dull. Could be 4 day layoff. They must have used it for R&R, because they obviously weren't practicing PP strategies. Passing drills would also be appropriate today.

THe problem is if the penalty shot was called for us no one would be saying anything. That is why I don't go for the REFS story ever. If the refs called 7 penalty shots against the rangers then I would say there is some legitimate gripe. But we can't keep chalking it up to the refs.

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12-19-2005, 09:30 AM
  #186
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Another thing we have to think about. I keep hearing "stay the course" with the rebuild. Yes. I believe that is true if your young players really need to learn a lot more and we are where the penguins are now. But i mean, what do you do next season on the rebuild end. We have a lot of young players playing well on this team and it has us in first place. SO, what do we do for next season on the rebuilding end? We obviously don't move any of the young guys we have now right? Because they are ALL playing well. So, do you get rid of Hossa and bring someone else up? Do we get rid of Rossival and bring someone else up? Do we get rid of Poti and bring someone else up? If you can make a move to improve the team now and for later you do it if it means parting with Hossa, Poti, and Fedorov. Why not? What can you lose? This GIVES you the opportunity to bring up the talent at the same time to fill the traded positions. I don't think that violates the "rebuilding" law we set for this team.

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Old
12-19-2005, 10:22 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by True Blue
Whoa, whoa, whoa. You are not seriously comparing Hossa to Ortmeyer or Moore or Betts, right? You cannot compare someone who plays exclusively on the 2nd line to the teams 3rd & 4th liners. Their job description is FAR different than that of Hossa. His sole purpose on this team is not to play physical or defend against the other teams top forwards or to create energy. His one and only purpose is to create offensive chances and score points. I am no looking for a 50 goal scorer here. Just someone who will get more than 1 point in 14 games or one goal in 27 games while playing on the second line.
Comparing Hossa to someone of Ortmeyer's talent level is laughable.
Over the last 5 or so games Hossa has hardly played exclusively on the 2nd line. Whose been centering Hossa much of the time? Wasn't it Rucchin? What about his stats (or lack thereof)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
I know that Prucha has some PP goals, however, he created much more and he was paired with Betts and Ward (in the past). Rucchin, for all of his shortcomings, has more offensive talent than Betts does.
Rucchin might have more offensive talent then Betts however his lack of speed pretty much makes that worthless. Prucha is a player that can create his own chances; Hossa can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
You cannot look to your 3rd & 4th liners to be leading the way on the score sheet.
Not leading the way but on a good team they will contribute. Other than a couple good games by Moore and one by Rucchin we've seen next to nothing from the 3rd and 4th line (offensively speaking, that is). I am not minimizing the contribution of the 3rd and 4th liners in other aspects of the game (especially defensively and on the pk). However, they need to produce a little more offensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
1 goal in 27 games, while playing nowhere but the 2nd line. I'd say he has recieved his chance.
Then hold guys like Rucchin to the same level of performance. Rucchin's gotten more ice time and more pp time. What exactly has he done? If Hossa deserves to sit then certainly so does Rucchin and so does Neimenen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
At some point, Hossa has to take the responsibility for Hossa. Those paltry numbers cannot only be blamed on his linemates. Lundmark was run ouf of town and burned in effigy on this board for much less.
By no means is this an absolve Hossa of blame thread. However, the point is that until you've given the kid every chance to succeed don't write him off. Don't put Rucchin as his center and when he doesn't score blame Hossa. Luc couldn't score as a Ranger because he never had a center that complemented him. As soon as he went back to LA he found his touch. Don't make the same mistake with Hossa. If you can't swing a trade then bring up Immonen and see what he can do.

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12-19-2005, 10:49 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by King Nothing
THe problem is if the penalty shot was called for us no one would be saying anything.
I think everyone here recognizes when we're on the "lucky end" of a bad call, as we have been a few times this year. I also haven't seen a single post in this thread that attributes last night loss to officiating.

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12-19-2005, 11:14 AM
  #189
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Jersey...

I don't think anybody would dispute your idea of holding Rucchin accountable for his lack of production. And Hossa has played a bit with Nylander too, all with the same results over the last oh so many games.

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12-19-2005, 12:05 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by JerseyRangers
Over the last 5 or so games Hossa has hardly played exclusively on the 2nd line. Whose been centering Hossa much of the time? Wasn't it Rucchin? What about his stats (or lack thereof)?
Betts centered the 3rd line and Rucchin has centered the 4th line in the past 5 games. Nylander was skating on the 2nd. The result as far as Hossa is concerned has not been different then when Rucchin or Straka has centered for him.

"Rucchin might have more offensive talent then Betts however his lack of speed pretty much makes that worthless."

And Betts is some kind of speed demon? Playing with Betts is not better than playing with Rucchin as far as playing with someone with offensive talent goes.

"Not leading the way but on a good team they will contribute. Other than a couple good games by Moore and one by Rucchin we've seen next to nothing from the 3rd and 4th line (offensively speaking, that is). I am not minimizing the contribution of the 3rd and 4th liners in other aspects of the game (especially defensively and on the pk). However, they need to produce a little more offensively. "

Rucchin is not to be confused with 3rd and 4th liners on this team. Even though that is exactly what he is. On this team, he is a second line player. The bottom two lines do not need to produce more offensively. That is supposed to be done by the top 2 lines. The bottom 2 are doing what they are supposed to be doing. The usually check the other teams better players. Hollweg plays his energy game, upsetting the other team. Moore, Ward, Betts & Ortmeyer are one of the primary reasons that the PK is where it is. They do not see any PP time (Hossa does). They play the game that they are suppposed to play and have been playing it well. They do their jobs.


"Then hold guys like Rucchin to the same level of performance. Rucchin's gotten more ice time and more pp time. What exactly has he done? If Hossa deserves to sit then certainly so does Rucchin and so does Neimenen. "

Ok, fine. Sit Rucchin and call up Immonen. I have no problem with that. Sit Neimo while you are at it as well. No issues. I am not defending them. But Hossa has got to get out of the lineup as well. As of right now, you can strap on skates to a sink and get similar production.

"Don't put Rucchin as his center and when he doesn't score blame Hossa."

I know that I started this, but I did not want to begin another "Hossa must go" thread. However, I blame Hossa entirely on Hossa.

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12-19-2005, 01:49 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Fletch
I don't think anybody would dispute your idea of holding Rucchin accountable for his lack of production. And Hossa has played a bit with Nylander too, all with the same results over the last oh so many games.
You're right that Hossa has had some time with Nylander and didn't exactly set the world on fire. I'm not opposed to scratching Hossa but only after you've sat guys like Rucchin and Niemenen who have been even less effective than Hossa. I just don't want to go back to the Rangers of old were any young guy was sat as soon as he made a mistake while veterans had carte blanche to stink up the ice whenever they got out there.

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12-19-2005, 04:30 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by True Blue
Betts centered the 3rd line and Rucchin has centered the 4th line in the past 5 games. Nylander was skating on the 2nd. The result as far as Hossa is concerned has not been different then when Rucchin or Straka has centered for him.
Not last night. They put Rucchin back centering the 1st line. Not surprisingly Prucha had his quitest game in a long while with Rucchin as his center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Ok, fine. Sit Rucchin and call up Immonen. I have no problem with that. Sit Neimo while you are at it as well. No issues. I am not defending them. But Hossa has got to get out of the lineup as well. As of right now, you can strap on skates to a sink and get similar production.
That's okay by me too. I'd love to see Immonen centering the 2nd line with Prucha and cough, cough, Hossa. If it was up to me then both Rucchin and Neimo would sit out the next few games. Even better, both would be outta here on the first plane outta town. Also, right now the sink would probably outskate Rucchin. Although I'd give the edge to Rucchin in the leadership department.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
I know that I started this, but I did not want to begin another "Hossa must go" thread. However, I blame Hossa entirely on Hossa.
Me neither. However, I'd much sooner toss aside Rucchin and Neimo then start with Hossa. There's a few guys on this team that I'd throw to the sharks before I would toss Hossa outta here. JMO.

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12-20-2005, 08:20 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by JerseyRangers
Me neither. However, I'd much sooner toss aside Rucchin and Neimo then start with Hossa. There's a few guys on this team that I'd throw to the sharks before I would toss Hossa outta here. JMO.
When all is said and done, none of the three are going to be a part of "the solution". Rucchin and Niemo are not going to be resigned, if not traded off later on this year and Hossa is making a case not to be a part of the future.

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