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Medvescak 16/17: FINAL SALE NOW EVERYTHING MUST GO ENDS AT MIDNIGHT

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Old
03-15-2016, 08:09 AM
  #51
bishonen91
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u20 - not true, as you were debunked on HRHOKEJ. Age difference is irrelevant mostly, MAC and MDV had 0,20 years avg difference.

Also, Vanjito - people enjoyed EBEL. People loved and hated teams. People now don't care.

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03-15-2016, 08:11 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by kulenova seka View Post
Holy Mary mother of God

Where the F*** you were prior to the EBEL ? Lowering the bar, are you f***** serious ? "Fans" like you deserves level of hockey like it was before EBEL than you wouldn't be writting BS's such as bolded.
yes, I am, as you so eloquently put it, f***** serious.
if you, on purpose, demand less then you are lowering the bar.
is my "bar" set to high? I know I'm not being realistic. but then again, realistically, zagreb should not have a pro hockey team with one and a half rinks.
I have never written anything malicious nor disrespectful.
and what "fans" like me deserve is by no means up to you.

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03-15-2016, 08:31 AM
  #53
Alessandro Seren Rosso
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Originally Posted by kabidjan18 View Post
You've said this many times without explaining WHY being in the second highest league is beneficial.
LOL. Is an explanation really necessary?
If you prefer watching or playing lower quality hockey (or any other sport), well, it's a dubious mindset
To me it would sound like Dinamo Zagreb wanted to play europa league instead of champions league... would it be an intelligent move?

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03-15-2016, 08:39 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by bishonen91 View Post
u20 - not true, as you were debunked on HRHOKEJ. Age difference is irrelevant mostly, MAC and MDV had 0,20 years avg difference.

Also, Vanjito - people enjoyed EBEL. People loved and hated teams. People now don't care.
of course people enjoyed ebel. I enjoyed ebel. what was there not to enjoy?
I see your point and respect your opinion.
I'll still be a fan if we return to ebel. (that is if I get a permission from kulenova seka as he's the one granting fan rights)

I'm not a khl poster fanboy. I'd be more interested in a central european leauge. until then (I know, I'm dreaming) I'd rather watch khl. but once again, I can see why you prefer ebel.

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03-15-2016, 09:43 AM
  #55
kabidjan18
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
LOL. Is an explanation really necessary?
If you prefer watching or playing lower quality hockey (or any other sport), well, it's a dubious mindset
To me it would sound like Dinamo Zagreb wanted to play europa league instead of champions league... would it be an intelligent move?
What amazing reasoning, first appeal to it's obvious when I just proved it's not, then appeal to what I've already spent time addressing. Evidently the higher level of hockey hadn't produced more fans, nor has it created more of an international following, so what is the benefit of playing a higher level other than emotional? Seeing a team with no croatians on it? And your example is just a downright terrible example because those are both selection based leagues not seasonal leagues. Better examples are in conference realignment in American football.

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03-15-2016, 10:12 AM
  #56
Alessandro Seren Rosso
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Originally Posted by kabidjan18 View Post
What amazing reasoning, first appeal to it's obvious when I just proved it's not, then appeal to what I've already spent time addressing. Evidently the higher level of hockey hadn't produced more fans, nor has it created more of an international following, so what is the benefit of playing a higher level other than emotional? Seeing a team with no croatians on it? And your example is just a downright terrible example because those are both selection based leagues not seasonal leagues. Better examples are in conference realignment in American football.
Sports is about proving you're the best. You don't achieve that playing with lower level teams. What's more important, winning the Olympics or the IIHF WC?
I like the EBEL a lot, it's a mini-KHL and a good league, but it isn't and never be at the KHL level. Any team that goes from the KHL to the EBEL is taking a step BACK.

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03-15-2016, 10:29 AM
  #57
kabidjan18
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Sports is about proving you're the best. You don't achieve that playing with lower level teams. What's more important, winning the Olympics or the IIHF WC?
I like the EBEL a lot, it's a mini-KHL and a good league, but it isn't and never be at the KHL level. Any team that goes from the KHL to the EBEL is taking a step BACK.
That's all great but that's nothing but sentimental value. Taking a step back, taking a step forward, that's not registered in what the quality of play is, that's registered here in butts in seats, club revenue, and eventually national interest in the sport and willingness to build based off of this excitement. You and I are looking from the outside in, and seeing oh well they're in a higher league now things should just defacto be better, but where is the proof for that? The feeling of "oh we're slightly closer to the top" evidently didn't turn into hockey infrastructure, or a successful and profitable balance sheet for the club, or a new wave of talented juniors, or a stronger and larger home fan base, or an international following, so please, give me something solid and tangible on why this "step forward" is really moving in the right direction. Really this conversation is all amiss they're not returning to the EBEL and potentially not staying in the KHL for too long either.

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03-15-2016, 01:12 PM
  #59
Alessandro Seren Rosso
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Originally Posted by kabidjan18 View Post
That's all great but that's nothing but sentimental value. Taking a step back, taking a step forward, that's not registered in what the quality of play is, that's registered here in butts in seats, club revenue, and eventually national interest in the sport and willingness to build based off of this excitement. You and I are looking from the outside in, and seeing oh well they're in a higher league now things should just defacto be better, but where is the proof for that? The feeling of "oh we're slightly closer to the top" evidently didn't turn into hockey infrastructure, or a successful and profitable balance sheet for the club, or a new wave of talented juniors, or a stronger and larger home fan base, or an international following, so please, give me something solid and tangible on why this "step forward" is really moving in the right direction. Really this conversation is all amiss they're not returning to the EBEL and potentially not staying in the KHL for too long either.
I may be a bit exaggerated, but if a board wants to play in an inferior league is a board of losers, and if the local crowd prefers to play in an inferior league, they are losers too. I don't think that owners should be losers. If they want to make money, there are a lot of other ways to make money too where you don't have to be a loser.
Players thrive to play in the NHL because it's the top league in the world. Why shouldn't fans or owners want the same?

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03-15-2016, 01:29 PM
  #60
kabidjan18
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
I may be a bit exaggerated, but if a board wants to play in an inferior league is a board of losers, and if the local crowd prefers to play in an inferior league, they are losers too. I don't think that owners should be losers. If they want to make money, there are a lot of other ways to make money too where you don't have to be a loser.
Players thrive to play in the NHL because it's the top league in the world. Why shouldn't fans or owners want the same?
Because Medvescak is not their team. Imagine a Russian NHL team with no Russians. If that happened to a Russian team, Russians would call it a sham and an insult, but because it's Croatia not Russia you just expect them to be ok with it and embrace it. Owners want money, something they haven't been getting I will note, but that's why they choose the KHL. If you want to call croatians losers for wanting a croatian team, then I don't think anyone can change how you feel, I only know if the same were true for a Russian team that team would not have your full support.

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03-15-2016, 04:26 PM
  #61
Alessandro Seren Rosso
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Originally Posted by kabidjan18 View Post
Because Medvescak is not their team. Imagine a Russian NHL team with no Russians. If that happened to a Russian team, Russians would call it a sham and an insult, but because it's Croatia not Russia you just expect them to be ok with it and embrace it. Owners want money, something they haven't been getting I will note, but that's why they choose the KHL. If you want to call croatians losers for wanting a croatian team, then I don't think anyone can change how you feel, I only know if the same were true for a Russian team that team would not have your full support.
No, wait, I haven't called them losers because they want a more domestic team. Of course they have all the right to want more domestic players, I don't get myself why a team should ice a completely foreigner lineup, but that's not the matter of the speech. I expressed a different feeling. The EBEL team was as Croatian as their KHL teams are, though.

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03-15-2016, 05:10 PM
  #62
kabidjan18
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
No, wait, I haven't called them losers because they want a more domestic team. Of course they have all the right to want more domestic players, I don't get myself why a team should ice a completely foreigner lineup, but that's not the matter of the speech. I expressed a different feeling. The EBEL team was as Croatian as their KHL teams are, though.
Lol, again, being Russian you don't understand, this is the same for Austrians, as long as we play in a strong league we will have foreigners dominating our teams. However, the hope is the we or in this case they could have a few bottom 6 players or backup goalies who could play for our local team. In 2012-13 Medvescak had 6 Croatian players, in 2011-12 they had 10 but 3 of them were goalies who never played, in 2010-11 they had 7 and in their inaugural year they had 9. This past year they technically had 2 but Milicic and Jankovic only played one game each. Perhaps with some long long stretching you could call Zanoski a true Croatian too, hopefully he plays for the NT after next year. Last year they had 1 Croatian goalie play one game. You see the point, back when they were in the EBEL they could see a few of their own players play bottom-line minutes, something to hang their hats on, now it's a completely foreign team.

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03-15-2016, 06:35 PM
  #63
Alessandro Seren Rosso
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Originally Posted by kabidjan18 View Post
Lol, again, being Russian you don't understand, this is the same for Austrians, as long as we play in a strong league we will have foreigners dominating our teams. However, the hope is the we or in this case they could have a few bottom 6 players or backup goalies who could play for our local team. In 2012-13 Medvescak had 6 Croatian players, in 2011-12 they had 10 but 3 of them were goalies who never played, in 2010-11 they had 7 and in their inaugural year they had 9. This past year they technically had 2 but Milicic and Jankovic only played one game each. Perhaps with some long long stretching you could call Zanoski a true Croatian too, hopefully he plays for the NT after next year. Last year they had 1 Croatian goalie play one game. You see the point, back when they were in the EBEL they could see a few of their own players play bottom-line minutes, something to hang their hats on, now it's a completely foreign team.
Well, I admitted I exaggerated and I regret a bit to have overused the "loser" word. But frankly speaking, I don't see much differences in having like 4 Croats in roster and having none. Five or six years ago the Bears had a few young players in the roster (even a couple of veterans it seems), and what did they contribute? I think about five or six goals combined. This must mean that these guys had very limited ice time (of course Rendulic is not included but he really only played a bunch of games).
My point is that, if you're gonna have a foreigner team anyway, why to play in an inferior league?
I may understand if they'd play in the EBEL to play with a domestic roster, but if the domestic roster scores 5-6 goals across a few seasons... this screams to me three to four minutes a night.
At this point, once again I would consider a move back to the EBEL a step back, with all the due respect to the team and to the EBEL league, which I like a lot (but can't consider on par with the KHL).
EDIT: I must add that they IMHO made it wrong in overusing imports in national teams. All the "minor" nations did this in some points in the past and we all know the end those teams did.
EDIT 2: With all the due respect for Croatian hockey, the Austrians are years light ahead. Of course, it's a whole different level...

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03-15-2016, 08:04 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Well, I admitted I exaggerated and I regret a bit to have overused the "loser" word. But frankly speaking, I don't see much differences in having like 4 Croats in roster and having none. Five or six years ago the Bears had a few young players in the roster (even a couple of veterans it seems), and what did they contribute? I think about five or six goals combined. This must mean that these guys had very limited ice time (of course Rendulic is not included but he really only played a bunch of games).
My point is that, if you're gonna have a foreigner team anyway, why to play in an inferior league?
I may understand if they'd play in the EBEL to play with a domestic roster, but if the domestic roster scores 5-6 goals across a few seasons... this screams to me three to four minutes a night.
At this point, once again I would consider a move back to the EBEL a step back, with all the due respect to the team and to the EBEL league, which I like a lot (but can't consider on par with the KHL).
EDIT: I must add that they IMHO made it wrong in overusing imports in national teams. All the "minor" nations did this in some points in the past and we all know the end those teams did.
EDIT 2: With all the due respect for Croatian hockey, the Austrians are years light ahead. Of course, it's a whole different level...
You're right, of course you don't understand, just like the post you quoted me saying you don't understand. The difference between having no natural players on your roster, and having a few bottom six players, it does mean something. Most likely they weren't getting 3 or 4 minutes a night they were likely getting 9 or 10 but weren't good enough to do anything with them and that didn't even matter because they're your players, and I'm sure this concept is lost on Russians or Canadians but it does mean a lot if your countries kids can aspire to be even a bottom 4 defenseman playing bottom 4 minutes.

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03-16-2016, 02:24 AM
  #65
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The team is never "only" the players. The team isn't put in Zagreb because of the players, or the great infrastructure alone.

Statistically, having 2 Croatians in EBEL on KHL doesn't matter. It's the same. You're in it to win it right?

But tell me, why are numbers dwindling? I just got the notification of the story when Medvescak was #13 in Europe in Attendance. It was 2010. In 2016 they're 46.

You do the math. If Dinamo Zagreb played in Primera and had only few home games or so, would it be better then had they played in (lets say) regional league with Austria and Slovenia and Italia? I don't think so. The games might be better on some level, but you need to invest way more money you don't have into something you don't really want.

Sure KHL is nice, but it's as much as a bush league as any.

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03-16-2016, 05:24 AM
  #66
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That's all excuses. People and authorities in Zagreb just do not care about hockey. Believe me, if Galatasaray or Fenerbahce iced a KHL team today, even the game against Amur would be sold-out, and we are talking about a country which literally has no idea what ice hockey even is. If KHL is not saving Medvescak, EBEL will not either. The problem seems to be lying much deeper. If the team returns to EBEL, which doesn't seem to be the case, maybe it will look more successful and the attendance figures will get better but that's all. In the long run, Medvescak will grab nothing worth mentioning yet again.

If you do not invest in infrastructure and make new ice rinks, get local kids to ice while you have a KHL team, then you wil definitely not be able to do this with EBEL either. As I said, obviously, people in Zagreb just do not love hockey as much as we assume they do.

Medvescak is not like Barcelona yet when they are a team from KHL, their recognition internationally is also much better. kabidjan18 may again blame me for catering to myself, but Medvescak is my little brother's favorite team in KHL for example and he even saves money to see them in future if possible. In EBEL,you won't have 12 year-old fans like that who sing "Zig zag Medvescak!" all the day. Now you may say, "LOL, what does it have to do with the team? Why 12 year-old children would matter for Medvescak?" and you are partly right. But that's recognition and marketing dude. My brother is not the only person who got to know Medvescak. Thanks to KHL, many many people learnt about the team and some even grew sympathy for them, like my little dude. In EBEL, your reach area is much narrower. And don't forget these fans are much more eager to buy your products compared to their Croatian counterparts. Having a Medvescak product like a scarf or hockey jersey in Turkey is very cool. In Croatia, it's just normal. So, while local fans are the main source of interest and income for the team, foreigners also have to be taken into account. Because, for god's sake, you are KHL team. You may have Finnish, Swedish, Russian, Latvian etc. fans!

Anyway. As I said, under normal circumstances, being part of the second best league would generate profits for youin any way possible. On ice, financially, merchandising-wise etc; simply because you are "famous" now. As Alessandro said, this does not really need explanation: being in the league alone has benefits yet you need to reap them. Medvescak just doesn't have these tools.

Are there any news now? If I am not mistaken, the deadline for registration in KHL is April 1, though I am not sure if Medvescak has to re-join the league as they are already part of it. Let's keep your fingers crossed for the best. Who knows, maybe next few years will bring huge improvements to Zagreb and we'll see a competitive, CSKA-punching Medvescak soon.

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03-16-2016, 08:32 AM
  #67
bishonen91
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
That's all excuses. People and authorities in Zagreb just do not care about hockey. Believe me, if Galatasaray or Fenerbahce iced a KHL team today, even the game against Amur would be sold-out, and we are talking about a country which literally has no idea what ice hockey even is.
Zagreb has 800.000 people, compared to Istanbul's what, 12 million?

Quote:
Medvescak is not like Barcelona yet when they are a team from KHL, their recognition internationally is also much better. kabidjan18 may again blame me for catering to myself, but Medvescak is my little brother's favorite team in KHL for example and he even saves money to see them in future if possible
yet you cant buy fan items from club, donate to the club or whatever. try buying a jersey



.
Quote:
In EBEL,you won't have 12 year-old fans like that who sing "Zig zag Medvescak!" all the day. Now you may say, "LOL, what does it have to do with the team? Why 12 year-old children would matter for Medvescak?" and you are partly right.
Now you're talking *****. 2009-2013 had lots of fans that were parents and brought lots of kids. I personally know atleast 10-15 parents (friends or colleagues) that took their kids to games back then and kids are now 7 years older and still mostly fans. when they bother to go to KHL. Mostly they go to every other hockey game.

What I wanted to say is - MEDVESCAK HAD ALWAYS young fans. Always. You didn't follow the game back then, I did.

Quote:
In EBEL, your reach area is much narrower. And don't forget these fans are much more eager to buy your products compared to their Croatian counterparts. Having a Medvescak product like a scarf or hockey jersey in Turkey is very cool.
You can't buy product in CROATIA. Let's not talk about that again.


Quote:
Anyway. As I said, under normal circumstances, being part of the second best league would generate profits for youin any way possible. On ice, financially, merchandising-wise etc; simply because you are "famous" now. As Alessandro said, this does not really need explanation: being in the league alone has benefits yet you need to reap them. Medvescak just doesn't have these tools.
Textbook case? NHL is not the second best league. Not even close. It's the "second most spending league", but not the second best. It's a wild bush league for oligarchs with money and state funded clubs.

Quote:
Are there any news now? If I am not mistaken, the deadline for registration in KHL is April 1, though I am not sure if Medvescak has to re-join the league as they are already part of it. Let's keep your fingers crossed for the best. Who knows, maybe next few years will bring huge improvements to Zagreb and we'll see a competitive, CSKA-punching Medvescak soon.
Medvescak was competitive mostly, not in a long run. They had .500 ish score in almost all 3 seasons, or something, could be a bit better...

Anyways - does anyone think we have a Turkish Loppa now?

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03-16-2016, 10:09 AM
  #68
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While of course it's great to build an international market, frankly the number of hockey fans in Turkey is not going to put weigh the loss of fans in Croatia. International fans have other teams, they aren't obligated to root for Zagreb and they don't. Many actually root for Slovan, they're the hip team, so at the end of the day catering to the domestic market should still be priority number one.

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03-16-2016, 10:18 AM
  #69
Alessandro Seren Rosso
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Originally Posted by bishonen91 View Post
Textbook case? KHL is not the second best league. Not even close. It's the "second most spending league", but not the second best. It's a wild bush league for oligarchs with money and state funded clubs.
Lol, and what is the second best then? The Swedish league? The Liiga? With all the due respect, both those leagues are inferior to the KHL. They aren't bad at all, I think that both leagues are very good and it's great to have such leagues in Europe, but they are on another (lower) level.
It just looks like it's another Russian-bashing post...
I think European hockey fans should be happy to have the KHL, it's good to have more talent and more good leagues (and consequently teams and players) in Europe instead of having the NHL sucking everything up

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03-16-2016, 10:44 AM
  #71
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You're losing your time: Russia sucks, the KHL is a bush league, and the EBEL is the beeeest evaaaaa
people like EBEL because of rivalries (a lot of geopolitical history also) and having a core of players stick around. There is no Medveščak player that is actually capable of playing in KHL that is there for more than a year and the worst is that players leave in the middle of a season. You really have to be a masochist to always learn new players name(s).

Linglet, Vesce, Cheechoo => gone.
Brust, Murray (my favourite) => gone.
Kinrade => gone. (just some good players)
Everyone capable of playing KHL-ish hockey => gone.
But yeah, Krošelj is still there

don't think that there is as much emotional connection with fans in KHL as it was in EBEL, and people like that. Not to say rivalries with other teams.

edit: reading this, think I need to clarify, I think that KHL is great thing for Medveščak, just that team's management has to change certain things in the way team is managed to make sure people stay interested in a team. Attendance will continue to fall because there is too many matches over short period of time for people's budget.


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03-16-2016, 11:02 AM
  #72
kabidjan18
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Lol, and what is the second best then? The Swedish league? The Liiga? With all the due respect, both those leagues are inferior to the KHL. They aren't bad at all, I think that both leagues are very good and it's great to have such leagues in Europe, but they are on another (lower) level.
It just looks like it's another Russian-bashing post...
I think European hockey fans should be happy to have the KHL, it's good to have more talent and more good leagues (and consequently teams and players) in Europe instead of having the NHL sucking everything up
The general assumption is that because of it's higher salaries, the KHL is the highest league in the world. There are counter examples however, like Steven Siego going to the KHL and scoring at a higher clip than when he was in Liiga, or Peter Regin's stats ballooning from the AHL to the KHL are just a few examples. Overall the debate is not as clear cut as some would like to think. In my personal opinion a team like CSKA is better than teams that other leagues have to offer, but a team like Riga would probably fare even worse in another league say the AHL or Liiga.

By and large the NHL still sucks up everything.


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03-16-2016, 02:29 PM
  #74
Alessandro Seren Rosso
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By and large the NHL still sucks up everything.
Not at the same rates they did in other ages. But don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying the NHL, I am just saying that now there are more alternatives and I think it's much better for the sport.

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03-16-2016, 03:30 PM
  #75
kabidjan18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Not at the same rates they did in other ages. But don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying the NHL, I am just saying that now there are more alternatives and I think it's much better for the sport.
I've seen the word alternative thrown around hfboards by a lot of people whose first languages weren't english. Depends one what you mean really by alternative. Alternative as in another options for fans? Sure, I guess, people in europe follow their local leagues more now, that would be a yes. Alternative to players? Yes, for those bordeline NHL/AHL players, or to players who were never close to NHL quality. Elite players playing in other leagues though? That's still rare. A few now, a few back in the day as well, maybe right now's few is slightly larger than back in the day's few, nothing too notable.

Stronger European leagues are good for the sport. Liiga and the SHL need to get stronger, the EBEL is the right idea with the wrong countries. The DEL isn't bad.

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