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Is Gretzky off anyone's Top 5 list?

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Old
12-24-2005, 07:29 PM
  #51
Ziggy Stardust
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Once again, I challenge anyone to give me the list of players that have scored 50 in 39, or come close to it. I believe that list is pretty short.

I find it funny that you could take away all of Gretzky's goals and he'd still be the leading scorer in NHL history. But he's really not that good is he?

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12-24-2005, 09:17 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Lou: you're mistunderstinding the argument so much, I shoudlnt even bother.

Thsi might help to sharpen things for you: do you believe that a guy with 0 games coached, 0 games as a GM, 0 games in management was qualified to lead Team Canada 2002? Thinking deeply onthis might broaden yoru horizons.
If this is your best case for Gretzky not being a top five player of all-time, then yeah it might be a good idea for you to not bother.

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12-25-2005, 12:23 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Thsi might help to sharpen things for you: do you believe that a guy with 0 games coached, 0 games as a GM, 0 games in management was qualified to lead Team Canada 2002? Thinking deeply onthis might broaden yoru horizons.
Well, we won gold didn't we?

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12-25-2005, 12:25 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beebs
Well, we won gold didn't we?
We would have won Gold, Silver, AND Bronze if Guy Lafleur was running the show

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Old
12-25-2005, 12:33 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
Can someone once again list all of those who scored 50 goals in 39 games, or even came close to doing that? Thanks.

When did many players obtain a 100 points or more????
During the 80's.

When did goalies suck?? during the 80's.

Was Gretzky protected? (every bloody game). Gretzky had what? 2-3 fights in his career?...

Gretzky's the best ever.

Like a Maple-Leaf fan once said, "Mario's not the best...forget about the 199 points in one season...Mario rested for years, that's why he's so good with point totals...

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12-25-2005, 12:33 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
We would have won Gold, Silver, AND Bronze if Guy Lafleur was running the show
Why bring up Guy? People should learn to argue with serious facts not by turning everything into jokes or making fun of other players. Seriously.. what's Guy done to you or your family that you hate him so much? Guy was a class act and a very generous and honest guy.. I dont get all the hate? Even if you're a leaf fan there's no need to disrespect the guy. You dont hear me disprespecting Sittler or Mahovlich or Sundin. In fact I rank Frank as a top 3 left winger of all time.

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12-25-2005, 12:36 AM
  #57
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Gretzy was great but he's my # 5 on palyers that I have seen. Stats aren't everything 7 some of us have seen pre 1980 players. Pre 1950 players don't get a fair shake as very few alive today have seen them play including me. Based on whst I have seen:

1. Orr
2. Howe
3. hull
4. lemieux
5. gretzy.

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12-25-2005, 12:44 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
We would have won Gold, Silver, AND Bronze if Guy Lafleur was running the show
My bad, I forgot about his majesty.

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12-25-2005, 01:33 AM
  #59
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or maybe whoever has Gretzky below five didn't like all the ice dancing he did, and nobody being allowed to breathe on him.

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12-25-2005, 02:04 AM
  #60
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Is Orr off of anybody's Top-5 list?
Is Howe off of anybody's Top-5 list?

Gretzky is clearly top-5. This thread does nothing toward any claim of him being the greatest ever.

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Old
12-25-2005, 02:06 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RallyKiller
or maybe whoever has Gretzky below five didn't like all the ice dancing he did, and nobody being allowed to breathe on him.
It's nto that nobody was allowed to breath on him.. no one could touch him. He was thinking 3 plays ahead of anyone else on the ice.

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12-25-2005, 04:24 AM
  #62
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I love how people look for any little reason to belittle Gretzky. He didn't fight, or his plus-minus wasn't great or it was easier to score goals and goalies sucked.

You can't compare points straight up from year to year, but you can compare players of the same era. Gretzky dominated. Plain and simple. So what if he wasn't as defensive as Gainey, or as tough as Howe. How many fights have Lafleur or Lemieux been in? Lemieux is a tank, but that doesn't mean he should have to fight.

Gretzky was simply the most dominating player of his era. Then he leads Canada to Olympic gold for the first time in a very long time. But we should criticize that as well.

Stan Fischler is an idiot and always has been. Gretzky may not be number 1 (although I think he is) but he's without question top 5.

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12-25-2005, 07:56 AM
  #63
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Forget what Wayne did during the eighties. THe fact is, he scored 90 points on a poor Ranger team playing alongside Adam Graves and Niklas Sundstrom with athritis messing up his aching back at the age of 38 in one of the lowest scoring years of the dead puck era...

And he's not on somebody's list? It's a clear indication that he wasn't a product of his era or his teammates.


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12-25-2005, 11:32 AM
  #64
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[QUOTE=DrMoses]Forget what Wayne did during the eighties. THe fact is, he scored 90 points on a poor Ranger team playing alongside Adam Graves and Niklas Sundstrom with athritis messing up his aching back at the age of 38 in one of the lowest scoring years of the dead puck era...

And he's not on somebody's list? It's a clear indication that he wasn't a product of his era or his teammates.

[/QUOTE

No other player was allowed to get 3 assists from touch passes behind the net and then end up a minus 1 on the might. Why? because coaches want to win.

99 was a minus player for the majority of his career.
He won an Art Ross as a minus player - that should end any debate.

Bobby Hull in the no defence West of the 80's would have obliterated all records and I dont think Semenko would have needed to protect him

oh and Dr Moses - I know youre a legitimate doc but this whole Gretzky played with a bad back is utterly laughable. There is zero proof of this.

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12-25-2005, 12:57 PM
  #65
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Look at how many more goals were scored per game in the 80's. Why was it that the other four guys that scored 50 in 50 (6 if you want to include Neely). It all happened after 1980. Do you honestly believe Brett Hull was a better goal scorer than Bobby? It's not even close. Listen to the guys that watched the NHL change into the no defence era of the 80's. Red Storey says Rocket would have scored 100 goals a season and that Milt Shmidt was the best player he ever saw, Ted Lindsay says Jean Beliveau was the best centerman who ever lived including Lemieux and Gretzky.

As an ambasador for the game and a leader he was among the best (still behind Beliveau in both). But as a hockey player he is very over rated. Yes his point totals are amazing, but point totals don't tell the whole story. For some reason everyone has been brainwashed by Gretzky propaganda. Mark Messier is second all time in points but nobody considers him the second best player ever. Most don't even consider him top 5-10. It seems as if you all think logically when talking about any other player in hockey history, but go into a daze whenever Gretzky gets brought up.

In case you feel like I get to be critical and you don't, I'll list my all time team so you can cut into me. That's what these message boards are for are they not?

Lindsay Esposito Howe
Hull Beliveau Richard
Mahovolich Dionne Lafleur
Gainey Shmidt Geoffrion

Orr Harvey
Shore Bourque
Robinson Horton

Sawchuck
Plante
Durnan

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12-25-2005, 01:09 PM
  #66
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Obviously there hasn't been a single player born after 1960 who could ever hope to compare to anyone who played before that. Rose coloured glasses anyone?

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12-25-2005, 01:15 PM
  #67
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It seems there's a knock on Gretzky about him not being as "tough" as guys like Lemieux, Howe, Orr and co. who were physical and intimidating as well as posessing an awesome talent package. However, that makes Gretzky somewhat even more impressive to me--he wasn't huge, he didn't drop the gloves, he didn't make guys his ***** physically--he simply owned the everlasting piss out of everyone on pure talent alone. The fact that he happened to be one of the cleanest and most sportsmanlike players in the game speaks of the way he played the game. He never went out there to hurt anybody, and he never expected anybody to hurt him; he was out there to score, score and score some more.

Oh, and somebody made some comment about "what's so special about getting 3 assist from behind the net and being a -1?" Hmm. That seems a tad off to me...so I did some research. Wayne Gretzky was a career +518. His first minus season was 1991-1992, after having been in the NHL for almost 12 seasons. He was minus in only 8 of his 20 NHL seasons, and towards the end of his career, the teams surrounding him weren't all that great.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/...74&hubname=nhl

^ That's where I got my info. Take a long look at all the stuff on there...it's absolutely astounding how much Gretzky dominated the game. And he didn't have to be a wrecking ball of physical force to do it. That to me, makes Gretzky No. 1.

~Canucklehead~

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12-25-2005, 01:28 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
He won an Art Ross as a minus player - that should end any debate.
Chooch, Stan Mikita also won the Art Ross and was a minus player (1968). Unlike Gretzky (who was on the 22nd-best team out of 26), Mikita was on the 4th best team in the league (out of 12). What's your take on that?

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12-25-2005, 01:45 PM
  #69
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I hesitate to post anything because it is a rare person who takes the time to listen to someone arguing against a raging river. However, I do have an opinion and since this thread comes up once in awhile and few ever get specific maybe it's time to write this again.

Wayne Gretzky was defensively indifferent, and that cost him (imo) on the list of the very best players to put on a uniform. You can lay the same blame on Guy Lafleur, or Yvan Cournoyer, or even Mike Bossy for much of his career but it takes nothing away from their monumental achievements with the puck.

99 was so completely superior with the puck that any argument that is the least bit critical seems absurd and has been shouted down so hard and long that no one ever really talks about it anymore. If one chooses to take bias out of the conversation, then it's fairly certain Wayne Gretzky falls a few notches short of Howe, Orr and Lemieux.

Gretzky's skills included superior on ice vision and an ability to slow the game down. His passes were golden, and ability to anticipate who would be open and when uncanny. I used to watch him from high above Northlands Coliseum and he'd lay a pass to an open space and you could see a Coffey or a Kurri coming in from oustide the play for a chance. Wayne Gretzky with the puck is/was as good as Bobby Orr, and that's saying something because Orr was the best hockey player I've ever seen.

But you can't have it both ways guys. One of the reasons Kurri was so valuable was that he did the hard work on that line back checking and getting the puck to 99. One of my vivid memories from the Oiler dynasty is Gretzky waiting at the Yellow Pages sign for the tape to tape from Kurri. You don't wait at the Yellow Pages sign without having a negative impact on the game, and when a European like Pavel Bure does it we're all quick to point out the play as being a poor one. Gretzky? I have read smart people claiming it was a "set play" and since the coach endorsed it this was best for the team. Fine. Indifferent.

If we're going to make a list of the all time best players in the game then imo we start with those who played all aspects of the game at a very high level.

If we were talking about the best baseball player ever, would we nick a player who spent a decade at DH? How about a guy who was so poor he even hurt you at first base? I think we would, and in the case of Wayne Gretzky we need to take into account the things he did not do without the puck.

He was not a big man, but plenty of men his size have been outstanding defensive players before and after him. Dave Keon was smaller than Gretzky and was an astounding penalty killer.

Gretzky is no doubt one of the all time best, and may indeed be one of the top 5 ever in the history of the game. He is the very best among the family of players who were offensively gifted and did not play a complete game.

He is, imo, not the best player in the game's rich history, but I do consider myself extremely fortunate to have seen him play.

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12-25-2005, 02:43 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raleh
Look at how many more goals were scored per game in the 80's. Why was it that the other four guys that scored 50 in 50 (6 if you want to include Neely). It all happened after 1980. Do you honestly believe Brett Hull was a better goal scorer than Bobby? It's not even close. Listen to the guys that watched the NHL change into the no defence era of the 80's. Red Storey says Rocket would have scored 100 goals a season and that Milt Shmidt was the best player he ever saw, Ted Lindsay says Jean Beliveau was the best centerman who ever lived including Lemieux and Gretzky.

As an ambasador for the game and a leader he was among the best (still behind Beliveau in both). But as a hockey player he is very over rated. Yes his point totals are amazing, but point totals don't tell the whole story. For some reason everyone has been brainwashed by Gretzky propaganda. Mark Messier is second all time in points but nobody considers him the second best player ever. Most don't even consider him top 5-10. It seems as if you all think logically when talking about any other player in hockey history, but go into a daze whenever Gretzky gets brought up.

In case you feel like I get to be critical and you don't, I'll list my all time team so you can cut into me. That's what these message boards are for are they not?

Lindsay Esposito Howe
Hull Beliveau Richard
Mahovolich Dionne Lafleur
Gainey Shmidt Geoffrion

Orr Harvey
Shore Bourque
Robinson Horton

Sawchuck
Plante
Durnan
Marcel Dionne has 45 points in 49 career playoff games, and you would take him ahead of Gretzky? Yikes. Dionne had some fantastic regular seasons, won some awards. But he rarely took his play to the next level in the playoffs. You can cite the team he was on, but when did Dionne ever step his play up in the most important season - the post-season? That's why Dionne appears on very few all-time top-25 lists: his spotty post-season record.

The same cannot be said for Gretzky. He won two Conn Smythe Trophies and four Cups. He carried the Kings to the Cup finals in 1993, a Kings team that had no business getting past the first round. His career playoff point-per-game mark (1.82) is only slightly below than his regular season average (1.92). And in Game 7s, he was clutch. Just ask the 1989 Edmonton Oilers and the 1993 Toronto Maple Leafs.

You can cite any irrelevant argument you want: era, protection, linemates, etc. The bottom line is that Gretzky is the best offensive player ever. He did things nobody else could do, and nobody has come close to seeing the game and thinking the game like Gretzky. That's what make him so dangerous. Was he an all-round force? No. That's why I have Orr and Howe ahead of him on my all-time list. But it's not like we're talking about Pavel Bure here, a guy who was responsible for as many goals against as goals for in many of his best offensive seasons.

Think of it this way: the Pearson Trophy is voted on by the players, and is awarded to who they think is the BEST player in the league. It's not the most valuable player to his team as determined by the media, but the best according to his peers. To me, it's far and away the most significant regular season award. (Of course, all regular season awards are dwarfed by the Conn Smythe). Gretzky won it five times. Next closest are Lemieux with four and Lafleur with three. Not only do many of those in the know say that he's the best, but his own peers said he was the best more times than anyone else since the award's inception.

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12-25-2005, 03:02 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raleh
Look at how many more goals were scored per game in the 80's. Why was it that the other four guys that scored 50 in 50 (6 if you want to include Neely). It all happened after 1980. Do you honestly believe Brett Hull was a better goal scorer than Bobby? It's not even close. Listen to the guys that watched the NHL change into the no defence era of the 80's. Red Storey says Rocket would have scored 100 goals a season and that Milt Shmidt was the best player he ever saw, Ted Lindsay says Jean Beliveau was the best centerman who ever lived including Lemieux and Gretzky.

As an ambasador for the game and a leader he was among the best (still behind Beliveau in both). But as a hockey player he is very over rated. Yes his point totals are amazing, but point totals don't tell the whole story. For some reason everyone has been brainwashed by Gretzky propaganda. Mark Messier is second all time in points but nobody considers him the second best player ever. Most don't even consider him top 5-10. It seems as if you all think logically when talking about any other player in hockey history, but go into a daze whenever Gretzky gets brought up.

In case you feel like I get to be critical and you don't, I'll list my all time team so you can cut into me. That's what these message boards are for are they not?

Lindsay Esposito Howe
Hull Beliveau Richard
Mahovolich Dionne Lafleur
Gainey Shmidt Geoffrion

Orr Harvey
Shore Bourque
Robinson Horton

Sawchuck
Plante
Durnan
remember...wayne never won a cup without Messier, but Messier won without him.

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12-25-2005, 03:22 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RallyKiller
remember...wayne never won a cup without Messier, but Messier won without him.
So you're saying Messier was a bigger reason for those first 4 Oiler Cups then
Wayne? I call BS on that one. Messier and his "leadership" qualities are vastly overrated

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Old
12-25-2005, 03:45 PM
  #73
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Just a random stat that won't change anyone's mind but I'm having fun with this anyways. Gretzky isn't even in the top ten of +/- per game. Afforementioned guys like Bossy and Lafleur are way ahead of him in that regard. Wayne only have 7 minus seasons, so it's unfair to say he was a minus player for a "large part of his career", but he was a minus player for the better part of a decade none the less. Merry Christmas guys, I hope nobody's taking this too personally and getting upset with me

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12-25-2005, 03:57 PM
  #74
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I dont know how people can rank players that played in the 50-s or before that time when they've never seen them play. Some of us have been able to watch hockey in the 60-s but likely not before that. Anyhow... from my lifetime here are the best players I ever saw.

1- Orr: Defense, Offense, Playmaking, Scoring, Defending, Blocking Shots, Fighting, overall the best player ever.

2- Beliveau: Make fun of me all you want but Beliveau was a class act through and through, could lay hits, could score, could make plays, could lead his teams to stanley cups (in fact 10 of them).

3- Lemieux: Too bad he had to deal with plenty a issues (injuries, cancer, retirement ) but he was the best stickhandler and goal scorer I ever saw. Not too shabby playmaker either. 6 Art Ross trophies, 6 Hart Trophies and 2 conn smythes.

4- Lafleur: Again, make fun of me all you want but if I had a game 7 and I had to choose a right winger who played in the last 35 years he would definately be on my first line. When relied upon, the guy performed under pressure and scored so many clutch goals that you can ever imagine. Was the best player from 74-75 to 79-80 leading his team to 4 consecutive stanley cups in that span, scoring 50 or more for 6 straight seasons as well as 120 or more points and even raising his game up a notch in the playoffs. Too bad he had that accident in 80 and never took care of himself or this guy would've had the record for the most 50 or more goal seasons no doubt in my mind. If he could score 50 or more for 6 consecutive seasons in an era which was far more defensive then the high flying 80-s who sais he could'nt have continued for a couple more years in those high flying 80-s? He was only 28 at the time. He had a cannon of a shot, could stickhandle, was the best right wing playmaker ever. He also was a plus for the majority of his career partly because he was on great teams but also because the guy used to backcheck often. He wasn't a pavel bure shall we say. Anybody who played for Scotty had to backchecked or else they wouldn't be on the ice very often.

And 5th on my list is, as you guessed, Wayne Gretzky.

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12-25-2005, 04:31 PM
  #75
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So this is what? Gretzky in the top 5 of what?
NHLers? Top 5 Hockey Players of all time? Top 5 forwards of all time?

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