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Horcoff has nothing on Reasoner!!

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Old
10-19-2003, 02:07 PM
  #1
mrush
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Horcoff has nothing on Reasoner!!

Allright, it seems the majority of Oiler fans think Horcoff is the better centre than Reasoner. imo its obviously that reasoner is way better than horcoff. Can people please validate their reasons for why Horcoff is better than Reasoner and vice versa. I cant understand why horcoff gets pp time over reasoner when reasoner wins more faceoffs than horcoff can win, reasoner has better skills than horcoff, but horcoff does have better speed than reasoner,

also, people say horcoff needs better linemates, thats a load of crap, horcoff makes his linemates suck!!, like i rather have stoll in than horcoff, so reasoner can get top line minutes and stoll can be on the checking line. like yes reasoner is the best checker so thats why he is on the 3rd line, but im sure reasoner can put better numbers if he was given the opportunity. my line would be moreau-reasoner-dvorak
cause reasoner and moreau have amazing chemistry together and shouldn't be split up i dont know why they were against colorado. like reasoner is a good center and moreau and dvorak work hard and im sure they would generate good chances, rather than having pisani, cause seriously pisani hasnt been doign anything good for the team other than getting pk minutes and doing a fine job, but other than that, he hasnt done much, like please tell me why you fans believe that horcoff deserves top minutes over reasoner?? i seriously cant understand any reason for fans to think horcoff deserves pp time, and 2nd line centre duties over reasoner??
oh on a sidenote, has anyone noticed chimera cant pass the darn puck?? because he cant pass worth ****, he seriously coughs off the puck so many times in the neutral zone the past 5 games, seriously call up stoll already so we can move smyth back to lw where he belongs, i know you guys think smyth is good at centre right now, but seriously i dont think it'll work in the long run, just cause smyth made nice passes against colorado doesnt make him a good centre, because he wasn't even playing position when he did those passes, like he just got on the ice from his penalty and made a nice pass, but if we call up stoll in replace to chimera which we should do, we can have the following lines, and i know torres has played good but he doesnt get that much time so he shouldnt play on the top line i know he doesnt cause of the pk and pp on saturday but my lines would be these
smyth-york-hemsky
moreau-reasoner-dvorak
isbister-stoll-pisani (3rd line is kinda of weak right now but i say put rita in for pisani cause, we need to give rita a chance this year or hes done developing and wont do anything for his career)
torres-horcoff-laraque
we give torres a chance on the top line early, but i say we should give a chance for moreau and reasoner to produce and also dvorak has only one point i think so, putting him with moreau/reasoner which have good chemistry can get dvorak going maybe.
this is why reasoner deserves top line minutes because hes basically the only true centreman we have that is decent.

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10-19-2003, 02:17 PM
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Punctuation and paragraphs are your friend....

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10-19-2003, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Silver
Punctuation and paragraphs are your friend....
Now that WAS funny. :p

Edit: this is just my opinion btw.

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10-19-2003, 02:30 PM
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thome_26
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Well, like, atleast we like know what like your like favorite like word is!

I do agree that Reasoner is better - but Horcoff IS good - and IS capable of better numbers if he was playing with a more skilled set of wingers - but LIKE he's not as bad as you are saying!

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10-19-2003, 02:38 PM
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I like them both alot, and agree that Reasoner could probably put up a few more points on the 2line. He certainly has had success in his past (college, that period of time in St. Louis when he was on a scoring line) and if he had a full season like Todd Marchant last year 50 points isn't ridiculous imo.

However, he's the best man for the 3line center job. I've said it before, I'll say it again, that job is more difficult than the 2line job.

Especially considering the Oilers 2line has been historically a shambles.

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10-19-2003, 09:06 PM
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reasoner is playing with more heart and grit than any other oiler right now.

i'm a huge reasoner fan and am thrilled with the success he's having. i'd like to see macT put isbister on his wing instead of chimera because i think reasoner's work ethic and character would elevate isbisters game.

and i completely agree that reasoner is a much better player than horcoff. horc had good strength on the puvk but he makes a lot of very stupid plays as well. it takes brains as much as talent to succeed. when he has the puck horc is only marginally smarter than cleary.

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10-19-2003, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by LawnDemon
when he has the puck horc is only marginally smarter than cleary.
HAHAHAHA you get props for that one haha

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10-19-2003, 09:18 PM
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I too would like to see Reasoners smart passing game with Izzy on his flank. But I wouldn't expect much in the way of line-up changes though after the last couple games. I still think Stoll should be in for Pisani!

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10-19-2003, 09:26 PM
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Seems I was right on this one too. Marty's a very skilled hockey player who's been bringin it every night for the last yr and 1/2. I nearly puked when I saw him on waivers, and was just disgusted when he was sitting. He's not a top-six player YET, but there's still hope. I echo alot of LD's comments, so I won't bother posting that kind of thing. Marty has the offensive puck-sense required, Shawn Horcoff simply does not. Also, Marty finishes. See last night, although, he did actually miss his intended shooting hole on that goal. But, it's about twine, not how it gets there.

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10-19-2003, 09:44 PM
  #10
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I really think that Marty could be a B. Morrison type player. He has enough skill. He's already better defensively. He just has never got the chance as he must not of performed certain un-mentionable favors to MacT that Cleary/Pisani did to get the chances they got/are getting. When he came here they pretty much didn't give him any chance at all. Last year it seemed like they did all they could to NOT have him succed. I'm suprised that he signed SO easy and if he ever requests a trade or tries to get out of town I won't blame him ONE bit - his first couple years here he was treated like $h!t

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10-19-2003, 10:33 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
I really think that Marty could be a B. Morrison type player. He has enough skill. He's already better defensively. He just has never got the chance as he must not of performed certain un-mentionable favors to MacT that Cleary/Pisani did to get the chances they got/are getting. When he came here they pretty much didn't give him any chance at all. Last year it seemed like they did all they could to NOT have him succed. I'm suprised that he signed SO easy and if he ever requests a trade or tries to get out of town I won't blame him ONE bit - his first couple years here he was treated like $h!t
I love Marty and thought that he could turn his career around here. But, I have to disagree with you. He was treated like crap before he came here and then played 'scared'. He could bring it for a while and then start second guessing himself which showed the coaches that he didn't trust his abilities.

Much as I freaked when he was put on waivers, it was probably what he needed to shake him up. (i still give thanx that he wasn't scooped up) I was so proud of him for being 100% accountable and doing everything he had to to get back in the lineup and then become an integral part of this team. He has great character and is a better player because of what he went thru. imho

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10-19-2003, 10:56 PM
  #12
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At the end of the season prior to Marty being put on waivers you could just see the unreal effort he was putting in every game just to keep his spot. Everyone knew it was do or die time for him here and he was making some great solo efforts and just coming oh so close to scoring, but time was running out on him like it was on the Oilers' playoff hopes.

The strongest metals are forged in the hottest fires, Marty Reasoner has come through his waiver experience and become a far better player for it. Success has never looked better on an Oiler.

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10-20-2003, 05:31 AM
  #13
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I agree, Reasoner is playing good where he is at and I think that he knows his role now, anything more is a bonus. He was given an oppotunity to score points and he ended up on waivers. I think he would rather be where he is at where there is no pressure to score and when he does, he's a hero, like last game.
I too think that he has more offensive upside that horcoff, and that is why horc is on the 4th line and Marty on the 3rd. If it was true that people thought horc was more offensive, he would be consistently on the 2nd line, which has never been the case seeing how Smyth is playing C.
I like the way it is now between Reasoner and Horcoff, they both play their butts off, they're responsible in their own end and that is all you can ask for from your 3/4 line centers. Any offense like i said, is a bonus.

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10-20-2003, 06:03 AM
  #14
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mact luvs defensive hockey and marty is our best defensive centre. He is much better suited to third line centre than horcoff. IMO, I really like when york plays on that line with ethn and marty because they will actually score a few goals.

If you look at the last few years, mact's third line got more ice time than his second line. They always played the key minutes against the top players.

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10-20-2003, 06:26 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy
I agree, Reasoner is playing good where he is at and I think that he knows his role now, anything more is a bonus. He was given an oppotunity to score points and he ended up on waivers. I think he would rather be where he is at where there is no pressure to score and when he does, he's a hero, like last game.
I too think that he has more offensive upside that horcoff, and that is why horc is on the 4th line and Marty on the 3rd. If it was true that people thought horc was more offensive, he would be consistently on the 2nd line, which has never been the case seeing how Smyth is playing C.
I like the way it is now between Reasoner and Horcoff, they both play their butts off, they're responsible in their own end and that is all you can ask for from your 3/4 line centers. Any offense like i said, is a bonus.
Sorry, Cowboy. His character and determination doesn't add up to what you're saying. I think he would rather be where ever the team wants him to be. He's shy, and looks a little uncomfortable in the limelight, but handles all the pressure on the ice just fine.

I have no doubt that he could thrive and produce offensively if he was flanked by top end wingers. However, who do we replace him with on the 3rd line? Until we have someone (Stoll?) who sees the ice and reads opposing players as well as he does, his most valuable contributions to the team are shutting down opposing talent, on the checking line and on the pk.

And mrush, your post was rather rambling and erratic, hence difficult to follow. Others have touched on parts of your musings and I will respond to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrush
i seriously cant understand any reason for fans to think horcoff deserves pp time, and 2nd line centre duties over reasoner??
On this team, the 3rd line is more crucial to our success than the 2nd line. If we take less penalties, then maybe Reasoner could get some time on the PP. But, we can't expect him to be on the ice for nearly half the game. He was dog tired and showing it against the Avs.

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10-20-2003, 06:51 AM
  #16
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I'm not the biggest Horcoff fan there ever was, but he's not THAT bad either. I would love to see Reasoner start getting some time on the top line with Smyth on his left side. I think the kid has earned it in the past year. He plays hard every night, has some size, lots of speed, wins draws, and has hands. They proved Saturday that they CAN click together.

 
Old
10-20-2003, 07:36 AM
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LawnDemon
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i'm wondering why everyone is calling marty the 3rd line center and citing the avs game as an example. it seems to me that marty was paired with chimera and dvorak (on the second line) while york centered moreau and pisani (the third line).

did i miss something?

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10-20-2003, 07:41 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by lowetide
he's the best man for the 3line center job. I've said it before, I'll say it again, that job is more difficult than the 2line job.
And more important too. Like seriously. If he succeeds in being an excllent 3rd line checker as good as Marchant, the Oilers have already scored bigtime.

Reasoner has missed so many scoring opportunities in the last two years its no longer an amusing little fact or string of bad luck: its a hard, cold, sobering fact. The "just missed" shot has become so routine he's starting to look up at the heavens during the windup.

I find it entertaining to muse that Reasoner is now our Marchant. Solid checker. Top faceoff man. Good passer. Stone hands. Or, at the very least, a bad shooter, much like Moreau (aka Mr. "Most Accurate Shot", aka "Great Junior Scorer") is.

Marchant scored the occasional huge goal, too, but nobody would say with a straight face that he's a good finisher. He makes a passable 1st line C on a bottom-15 team with their skill loaded on the wings. Reasoner is working towards a similar lofty goal. You see this reaction sometimes: one goal scored on a backup after a syrupy-sweet feed and suddenly a guy deserves to be 1st line C.

Horcoff just isn't that much different than Reasoner IMO. Same size and essentially just as physical. Better skater and more creative passer. Less hockey sense and slower to get off the shot. Good checker but seems to be less sound positionally to me. One has air conditioning and the other has the deluxe stereo and a sunroof. The options package on these models vary but the overall product is pretty close.

I'd be interested in seeing Horcoff Reasoner Moreau as a 3rd checking line, at least for once. Horcoff played very well on the LW checking role last year. Moreau spends a huge amount of time cycling along the right hand boards anyway.

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10-20-2003, 07:55 AM
  #19
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I too, think that a Moreau-Reasoner-Horcoff line has potential to be effective. But With the way things are going I don't expect changes to the lines barring injury. Pretty much everybody in the organization seems to be big on Horcoff - and there is a reason for that. The one major thing that he has lacked is a chance (the last prolonged chance on the second line he got was two years ago at the start of the season).

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10-20-2003, 08:40 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LawnDemon
i'm wondering why everyone is calling marty the 3rd line center and citing the avs game as an example. it seems to me that marty was paired with chimera and dvorak (on the second line) while york centered moreau and pisani (the third line).

did i miss something?
Well, I missed something, the game.
My priorities must be out of whack, if I place family obligations ahead of an Oilers game.
Was really tired, but stayed up for the 1/2 game replay. I also caught the post game comments and, of course, all the view points here.

It has been stated by at least 1 player, that MacT plans on icing a team with interchangeable parts. They'll each get they're ops to play on the top lines, if they continue working hard. But, when MacT really needs the 3rd to shut down the opposition, you can bet that the guys he trusts most, will get the call.

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10-20-2003, 10:22 AM
  #21
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Horcoff has improved in real ways since arriving, and may have a gear or two to go. We don't know if he can score 40 points, but we'll find out.

If he can't, he's still a pretty good NHL calibre player who can play center or wing. Rem Murray.

But he MIGHT be a little better than that.

Below are the first few seasons in the NHL for Horcoff, Reasoner and Murray:

Horcoff
00-01: 49gp-9-7-16 (age 22)
01-02: 61gp-8-14-22 (age 23)
02-03: 78gp-12-21-33 (age 24)

Reasoner
98-99: 22gp-3-7-10 (age 21)
99-00: 32gp-10-14-24 (age22)
00-01: 41gp-4-9-13 (age 23)
01-02: 52gp-6-5-11 (age 24)
02-03: 70gp-11-20-31 (age 25)

Murray
96-97: 81gp-11-20-31 (age 24)
97-98: 61gp-9-9-18 (age 25)
98-99: 78gp-21-18-39 (age 26)

Horcoff and Murray look like the same guy at age 24, but Horcoff had 100 games under his belt at the NHL level. The only real standout season above is Reasoner's 99-00 season, which he has not built on in over 150 games since (by that I mean he hasn't estbablished himself as a top 2 center).

Murray's best season (21-18-39) doesn't seem out of reach for either Horcoff or Reasoner.

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