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Weight trade rumors (before the trade)

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Old
01-03-2006, 12:35 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydog2005
Ottawa is trying to dump salary right now for the summer.
That is absolutely nuts. No way would we give up our 1st, Lee, Smoke or Vermette for a rental. Muckler is a competent GM...he'd never do that.

I could see Bochenski and a 2nd. Bochenski would probably thrive on this team because he needs ice-time and would give them a pure goalscorer.

Smoke/Vermette are going nowhere if they keep playing the way they are now.

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01-03-2006, 09:39 AM
  #77
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In retrospect this is an overpayment. If it is just Bochenski +2nd then it looks like weight will go elsewhere. However if Sens do want veteran leadership/role players for the drive then either Silly or Drake would be available at that price.

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01-03-2006, 10:22 AM
  #78
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However if Sens do want veteran leadership/role players for the drive then either Silly or Drake would be available at that price.
lol.

didnt we pick up silinger for a 3rd round pick like 5 years ago? and you think he's now worth Bochenski and a 2nd?
that's pretty funny.
He must be an all new mike silinger with a jet pack and bionic limbs.

i must have misread this somewhere....srry if i did.

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01-03-2006, 10:39 AM
  #79
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So his value was set 5 yrs ago when he was buried on a checking line, used as mostly a utility player? Has anything changed in those 5 yrs? Welcome back, did you hear we have a new CBA? As a short term , cost efficient move Silly is 1 of the most coveted type players, cheap, defensively sound, can score, great work ethic... etc. Maybe get current first or better yet, have more than a passing interest in the game. With all the talent in the world, but little thought for the playoff type game, the Sens run the risk of being on the outside looking in again. Whether you are LOL or otherwise, they need some veterans in the mould of Silly or Drake and can afford to move a player like Bochenski and a pick.

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01-03-2006, 12:33 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by yentlmania
The ongoing issue of where Weight is going turns on 3 pts: A contender needing a centre; said contender having cap space ( not the $5.7mm but the pro rata amount at the trade deadline) and whether the NTC will be waived.

If you follow the game closely and avoid playing the 'homer' , realistically there are 5 Western teams that can be considered contenders to make the finals : (as of now): Detroit, Nashville,Calgary, Edmonton and Vcr. Putting my feelings aside, Detroit is the best candidate but they are not unassailable ( sp?). The 4 other teams need a front line centre. All are built for the playoffs to some degree, all could win now, Nashville being the one least likely based on overall youth/experience. All 4 want Weight to a degree and all 4 have relative cap space, agreed we might need to take a salary on. If you are weight, do you waive the NTC for any 1 of those teams? Or all? I would say all at this stage, given a solid playoff with a contender will provide for a good contract reneg.

On the east side, my belief is it comes down to Sens or Flyers, whoever is healthier...the gap to those 2 and the rest is not as tight as in the West , where a key player could make all the difference. So they are not as motivated as the 4 Western teams noted...right now, but if 1 or ther other makes a move... then do the cap game, both are tight. But both would see Weight waive the NTC and both would benefit from the cap injury out clause.

The Blues are in good shape to command a good price for Weight as long as he agrees to waive the NTC. Mgmt needs to make it easy for him to waive it.

Lastly the Brewer deal will see Ryder +#2 come this way. Habs have many decent wingers and I would prefer Higgins or Pereshogin or Latendresse but that will not happen. Riberio is a centre and as we are starting to see, there are glimpses of hope at centre throughout the org ( Cajanek moved to 2nd line, McC, Backes, Oshie) and potential centres as UFA : Richards,Savard that could help. We need wingers...so if Habs won't move a good young winger then, say hello Buffalo, Eric.
I would disagree with your evaluation of the West because there are so many teams all around the same level that could be the favorite if they add the right 1-2 players.
Detroit is a playoff team but not likely a threat to reach the final. The defense is too old and there goalies are not good enough. Vancouver will have trouble making the playoffs unless they acquire a goaltender. Edmonton will need a goaltender and a couple of forwards to be a contender. Calgary should be the favorite, especially if the added 1 or 2 forwards. Nashville is a contender as they are solid at all positions and San Jose could be a contender if the goaltending returns to form and they make the right additions - a PP point man, and a some veteran defensemen.

Edit: Forgot about LA (All hinges on Garon being the real thing). In summary - favorites would be Calgary, Nashville, LA with San Jose a darkhorse.

Re: Brewer - San Jose has many prospects to offer in a deal. If it were Montreal Ryder & a 2nd is reasonable. They should offer Ribeiro + but the Blues should hold out for Ryder or a couple of young forwards.


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01-03-2006, 01:02 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by yentlmania
The ongoing issue of where Weight is going turns on 3 pts: A contender needing a centre; said contender having cap space ( not the $5.7mm but the pro rata amount at the trade deadline) and whether the NTC will be waived.

If you follow the game closely and avoid playing the 'homer' , realistically there are 5 Western teams that can be considered contenders to make the finals : (as of now): Detroit, Nashville,Calgary, Edmonton and Vcr. Putting my feelings aside, Detroit is the best candidate but they are not unassailable ( sp?). The 4 other teams need a front line centre. All are built for the playoffs to some degree, all could win now, Nashville being the one least likely based on overall youth/experience. All 4 want Weight to a degree and all 4 have relative cap space, agreed we might need to take a salary on. If you are weight, do you waive the NTC for any 1 of those teams? Or all? I would say all at this stage, given a solid playoff with a contender will provide for a good contract reneg.

On the east side, my belief is it comes down to Sens or Flyers, whoever is healthier...the gap to those 2 and the rest is not as tight as in the West , where a key player could make all the difference. So they are not as motivated as the 4 Western teams noted...right now, but if 1 or ther other makes a move... then do the cap game, both are tight. But both would see Weight waive the NTC and both would benefit from the cap injury out clause.

The Blues are in good shape to command a good price for Weight as long as he agrees to waive the NTC. Mgmt needs to make it easy for him to waive it.

Lastly the Brewer deal will see Ryder +#2 come this way. Habs have many decent wingers and I would prefer Higgins or Pereshogin or Latendresse but that will not happen. Riberio is a centre and as we are starting to see, there are glimpses of hope at centre throughout the org ( Cajanek moved to 2nd line, McC, Backes, Oshie) and potential centres as UFA : Richards,Savard that could help. We need wingers...so if Habs won't move a good young winger then, say hello Buffalo, Eric.
I would expect the Kings to make a pitch for Weight. They were planning to target him if he were bought out and Roenick has been a disapointment this year.

 
Old
01-03-2006, 01:22 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops II
Re: Brewer - San Jose has many prospects to offer in a deal. If it were Montreal Ryder & a 2nd is reasonable. They should offer Ribeiro + but the Blues should hold out for Ryder or a couple of young forwards.

Ryder is on a 30 - 40 goal pace in Montreal. Habs would view him as untouchable and would not trade him straight up for Brewer (let alone throw in picks and/or prospects).

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01-03-2006, 02:03 PM
  #83
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I would take Brian Lee straight up for Weight

Whats your thoughts?

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01-03-2006, 05:45 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by kingsjohn
I would expect the Kings to make a pitch for Weight. They were planning to target him if he were bought out and Roenick has been a disapointment this year.
No, we don't want Roenick. I'll gladly take Tambellini, though.

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01-03-2006, 06:29 PM
  #85
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Those are thoughtful replies. I intensely dislike Detroit but cannot objectively avoid calling them a contender. Their tending is adequate/decent, defense will get bolstered if they make cap space ( Salvy?) and they have Lidstrom, their forwards are the best in the West. It kills me to say it but you cannot discount them. I left LA out given their youthful tending, and 1 line reliance. I would like to send weight their way if they could make it work, they are just not built for a drive this yr. If LA did want him, great, I would ask for Tambs or Tukonen or one other of their young forwards ( name escapes me right now).

In terms of Brewer he is worth Ryder and a #2; Ryder is entering a reneg and they have forwards to deal with. Candidly I would prefer either of : Higgins, Pereshogin before Ryder , regardless of # of goals scored ( I think Ryder has had a # of goals on PP and in streaks, not necessarily a bad thing) their ceiling is higher. I am not familiar with San Jose's prospects, have not seen them play, but if there is interest then let us know who is solid. Buffalo is also interested and has a # of forwards we could use.

Fact remains that Weight, Brewer, Silly , Drake, Salvy and Weino will generate interest from contenders motivated to pay.

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Old
01-03-2006, 10:27 PM
  #86
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Whether you are LOL or otherwise, they need some veterans in the mould of Silly or Drake and can afford to move a player like Bochenski and a pick.

Yes they can. You are delusional however if you think that they would do it for "silly" or Drake.
We'll meet back here when and if either of them actually get picked up, and me and "my little more than passing interest in the game" will enjoy hearing your explanation as to why neither of them garnered anything other than perhaps a mediocre prospect or a mid round pick.

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01-04-2006, 01:32 PM
  #87
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Tks, yes lets see what unfolds, deals get made and not made for all sorts of reasons and I will offer my opinion. Perhaps you can further pursue your notion of how player's values get set 5 yrs ago...back then Lalime was going to bring the Sens the cup. How did that work out for you?

The pt is that players values flucuate depending on how they are playing currently and how they fit a teams gaps. If you are a Sens fan, your entire organization has been predicated on this idea, that is why they unearth so much good value in the draft ...or Jarmo did. If you were current on Silly you would recognize the fit and his value to the Sens ( or a player like him) but perhaps you have not seen his play?

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01-04-2006, 03:08 PM
  #88
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This is what i'd like to see coming back to the Blues for our players

Weight - 2nd and a good forward prospect
Salvador - 4th
Weinrich - 4th
Drake - 3rd
Sillinger - 2nd,
Brewer - 2nd and a good prospect or a 1st and 5th

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01-04-2006, 03:19 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBleeder
This is what i'd like to see coming back to the Blues for our players

Weight - 2nd and a good forward prospect
Salvador - 4th
Weinrich - 4th
Drake - 3rd
Sillinger - 2nd,
Brewer - 2nd and a good prospect or a 1st and 5th
I think you're a round too high on everyone except Weight and Brewer, but otherwise it's pretty much what I'm expecting. I'd love to get what you've listed (or more), but I'm not expecting it.

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01-04-2006, 07:06 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by BlueBleeder
This is what i'd like to see coming back to the Blues for our players

Weight - 2nd and a good forward prospect
Salvador - 4th
Weinrich - 4th
Drake - 3rd
Sillinger - 2nd,
Brewer - 2nd and a good prospect or a 1st and 5th

Keep Drake(our Captain), deal Young. Ask for a 2nd.

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01-04-2006, 08:06 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by kimzey59
Keep Drake(our Captain), deal Young. Ask for a 2nd.
The only way Young brings back a 2nd is if (A) someone is REALLY desperate for scoring help, and (B) Manny Fernandez gets traded before Young and brings back a 1st for Minnesota.

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01-05-2006, 01:15 PM
  #92
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Tks, yes lets see what unfolds, deals get made and not made for all sorts of reasons and I will offer my opinion. Perhaps you can further pursue your notion of how player's values get set 5 yrs ago...back then Lalime was going to bring the Sens the cup. How did that work out for you?
Well we went to the conference finals, so id say it worked out alright until the last year. Let me ask you this; who's more foolish? the team who brings him along pays him relatively little and then lets him go once its obvious he can't get it done or the team who signs him to an expensive contract after having witnessed how poor he was?
How'd it work out for you?
As for Silinger's value being set 5 years ago. Yeah what a stretch to think that an average player's worth will be equal to or less at age 35 than at 30.....what could i have been thinking...Far more reasonable to assume that he's now worth far more im sure.

Quote:
The pt is that players values flucuate depending on how they are playing currently and how they fit a teams gaps. If you are a Sens fan, your entire organization has been predicated on this idea, that is why they unearth so much good value in the draft ...or Jarmo did. If you were current on Silly you would recognize the fit and his value to the Sens ( or a player like him) but perhaps you have not seen his play?
Perhaps you can tell me where you think Mike Sillinger would fit into Ottawa's depth chart? and after you locate a spot on our roster for him perhaps you can tell me why Ottawa would offer one of their top prospects and a 2nd round pick to fill that spot on our roster.
I know he's a crappy fit but perhaps you can enlighten me.
Im well aware of Ottawa's drafting and scouting prowess which is why i know they wouldnt touch a Bochenski and a 2nd for Silinger deal with a ten foot pole.
It addresses nothing we need and deals away significant assets for something that does nothing to improve our team.

What you need to realize is that simply because he's having an OK year on the crappiest team in hockey eating big minutes (20 min/game) playing on the 1st line doesnt mean he'll get anything near that on a good team.
How much value would you place on a 35 year old 40pt/year player who wont play on your top 3 lines?


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01-05-2006, 02:59 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot
Well we went to the conference finals, so id say it worked out alright until the last year. Let me ask you this; who's more foolish? the team who brings him along pays him relatively little and then lets him go once its obvious he can't get it done or the team who signs him to an expensive contract after having witnessed how poor he was?
How'd it work out for you?
hmmm, do you have any accurate information?

St. Louis traded a 4th round draft pick (I believe) for Lalime, it was Ottawa that signed him to his current contract. You should thank us, and we had nothing to lose on giving him a fresh chance.

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01-05-2006, 04:15 PM
  #94
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Wondercarrpt, you answered your own question re: foolish, Sens signed him I believe. What was more obvious, was not Lalime's play, but rather your team's implosion ( again). How many goals did they score to support him against the Leafs? I realize how frustrated you Sens fans must be, all that talent and not enough heart, maybe it will work this yr. I actually hope you guys do well so that Monkey is off your back, it just validates the Blues taking Jarmo off your hands. I am also looking forward to seeing how you manuevre around re-signing Chara and Redden, maybe throw more taxpayer funded cash at the team.

Back to the topic, Silly's value has gone up and yes he is older, happens often, even on your squad, is Smokes more valuable now or 5 yrs ago? A good 2 way player is a centre piece of any playoff drive, something you Sens fans have come to appreciate the last couple of yrs. In terms of where he plays you are right with your depth at centre he plays the 4th line, but as he can play any forward position well, he can fill in for those injuries that happen. With a ton of injuries now impacting your forwards, perhaps you can recognize the fit. I know Silly could have helped in the 8-3 loss to Atlanta. Face it, an inexpensive player like Silly is ideal to help with those sits particularly when Varada, Havlat etc go down again at crucial times.

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01-05-2006, 07:31 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot
Well we went to the conference finals, so id say it worked out alright until the last year. Let me ask you this; who's more foolish? the team who brings him along pays him relatively little and then lets him go once its obvious he can't get it done or the team who signs him to an expensive contract after having witnessed how poor he was?
How'd it work out for you?
As for Silinger's value being set 5 years ago. Yeah what a stretch to think that an average player's worth will be equal to or less at age 35 than at 30.....what could i have been thinking...Far more reasonable to assume that he's now worth far more im sure.

Perhaps you can tell me where you think Mike Sillinger would fit into Ottawa's depth chart? and after you locate a spot on our roster for him perhaps you can tell me why Ottawa would offer one of their top prospects and a 2nd round pick to fill that spot on our roster.
I know he's a crappy fit but perhaps you can enlighten me.
Im well aware of Ottawa's drafting and scouting prowess which is why i know they wouldnt touch a Bochenski and a 2nd for Silinger deal with a ten foot pole.
It addresses nothing we need and deals away significant assets for something that does nothing to improve our team.

What you need to realize is that simply because he's having an OK year on the crappiest team in hockey eating big minutes (20 min/game) playing on the 1st line doesnt mean he'll get anything near that on a good team.
How much value would you place on a 35 year old 40pt/year player who wont play on your top 3 lines?
1. IIRC Lalime was scheduled to make $2.9 million for Ottawa before he was traded; the Blues will pay him $2.432 million - his qualifying offer. I'd give the advantage to St. Louis - they didn't sign him to his contract, and they only had to pay him for one year.
2. For all the harping about how piss-poor Lalime was in the '04 playoffs, I remind everyone of a few statistics from that series: 7 games. 11 goals. Ottawa scored 8 of its 11 goals in 2 games. Toronto won its first 3 games 2-0. Even if Lalime stunk like a pile of **** in Game 7 - is it too much to ask the rest of the team to score more than 2 goals in the 4 games leading up to Game 7? Or was he supposed to pitch a shutout every night while waiting for someone on his team to remember how to score a goal instead of skating around aimlessly in the offensive zone?
3. Sillinger wins faceoffs, can play defense, and is showing an offensive touch most people forgot he had. Of guys who've taken at least 100 faceoffs this year, Sillinger is 7th in the league at 58.0%. IMO he's not worth a 2nd (he'll probably bring either one pick - a 3rd - or two picks, a 4th and a 7th in split years), but trust me - a center who can play 2-way hockey and can win faceoffs when needed is always a valuable commodity come playoff time.
4. Call it a hunch - Sillinger won't go to Ottawa. However, I think if the Sens have a chance to land Weight they definitely offer Bochenski and a 2nd.

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01-06-2006, 08:45 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Wondercarrot
Well we went to the conference finals, so id say it worked out alright until the last year.
Wow, good to know Ottawa fans are just happy with making it to the conference finals. I am just waiting to hear Hasek has a "knee injury" at the first sign of a little struggle by Ottawa to win some games.

I agree with IB that it is more likely that Sillinger will bring a single pick or a combination of lower picks split between years. However, there is a chance that someone will pay a little more to get a Sillinger or Drake on their team for the playoffs. It will not be Ottawa I am sure, but then Ottawa was just fine with making the Conference finals right?


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01-06-2006, 09:59 AM
  #97
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You guys are great, thanks.
very entertaining.

Hey Blueski,

Quote:
but then Ottawa was just fine with making the Conference finals right?
3 years ago we went to the conference finals and lost to the Cup champs with 2 minutes left in game 7. hardly anything to be ashamed of, disappointing yes....tragic...hardly.
tragic is making the playoffs 25 years in a row and accomplishing a big fat ZERO.
It was disappointing but considering it was the our best playoff result ever there was a reason the hometown crowd gave them a standing ovation at the end of the game.
You may think you understand as it seems like a tribute to mediocrity which as a St Louis fan you would well understand.
But in fact it was a celebration of what we thought was to come the next year.

Quote:
Game 7 - is it too much to ask the rest of the team to score more than 2 goals in the 4 games leading up to Game 7
no its certainly is not. just as its not too much to ask a goalie to stop a shot from outside the blueline on the shortside in the biggest game of the year. twice.
i didnt realize we were debating the merits of how Ottawa's team was assembled 2 years ago.
i thought we were discussing what our current team with about 5 new players, new coach and goalie required.

Quote:
Call it a hunch - Sillinger won't go to Ottawa. However, I think if the Sens have a chance to land Weight they definitely offer Bochenski and a 2nd.
i agree with your hunch. i also agree with your assesment of what Ottawa would offer if they knew it would get Weight. (the pick could be variable but it will take a good prospect).
That's quite a bit different than thinking Bochenski and a 2nd is Sillingers worth, which is what this debate was originally all about.

i may have been innaccurate in how the Lalime deal went down, the bottom line is still the same.

Quote:
What was more obvious, was not Lalime's play, but rather your team's implosion ( again). How many goals did they score to support him against the Leafs? I realize how frustrated you Sens fans must be, all that talent and not enough heart, maybe it will work this yr. I actually hope you guys do well so that Monkey is off your back, it just validates the Blues taking Jarmo off your hands. I am also looking forward to seeing how you manuevre around re-signing Chara and Redden, maybe throw more taxpayer funded cash at the team.
Good lord what's with you? i disagree with the value you place on Sillinger (along with everyone else here) and i get a 3 year olds psychological deconstruction of the Senators as an organization and their fanbase not to mention some nonsensical babble about taxpayer cash?
what on earth are you talking about?

Areyou seriously taking shots at the Sens and their lack of success???
I probably should remind you that you are a St Louis Blues fan and as such are home to the most useless team in the NHL, with a long and glorious history of accomplishing nothing.
I'll give you this pot: you certainly arent afraid of calling the kettle black.

Quote:
Back to the topic, Silly's value has gone up and yes he is older, happens often, even on your squad, is Smokes more valuable now or 5 yrs ago?
Fine. i'll take Jackman and a 3rd for Smolinski. where do i sign.

Quote:
A good 2 way player is a centre piece of any playoff drive, something you Sens fans have come to appreciate the last couple of yrs. In terms of where he plays you are right with your depth at centre he plays the 4th line, but as he can play any forward position well, he can fill in for those injuries that happen.
So let me get this straight. We should trade one of our top prospects along with a 2nd round pick for a player who can play on the 4th line for us and in the event of injuries can move up and play a bigger role....(sort of like a number of players we have right now fulfilling those roles.)
Jarmo would not approve. its absolutely horrible asset management.

Quote:
With a ton of injuries now impacting your forwards, perhaps you can recognize the fit. I know Silly could have helped in the 8-3 loss to Atlanta.
What about the other 10-15 games that we've played with tons of injuries? or do those wins not count? Your strategy of freaking out and making an absurd panicky trade may seem like a good idea in St Louis but i think we'll stuggle along with our 27-8 team and see if we cant somehow muddle through until a a deal that actually helps us comes along.

Quote:
Face it, an inexpensive player like Silly is ideal to help with those sits particularly when Varada, Havlat etc go down again at crucial times.
how is he inexpensive if he costs us Bochenski and a 2nd round pick? the salary is incidental comapared to what we actually have to give up.

BTW- even with the injuries to Spezza, Havlat, Alfredsson and Bochenski; Silinger is still a 3rd line player for us.

Heatley, Smoke, Fisher, Neil, Eaves, and Kelly are all guys i would play before Silinger. and they are all still in the lineup.


All in all its not like im saying Silinger is a useless hockey player, all i said was he is in no way shape or form worth us trading Bochenski and a 2nd round pick.
think about it....its ridiculous.

Now Weight? i would probably make that deal for many of the reasons you suggested above.

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01-06-2006, 10:22 AM
  #98
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I could see the Flyers getting Weight.

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01-06-2006, 10:32 AM
  #99
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damn Flyers.

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01-06-2006, 10:49 AM
  #100
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This is getting close to just being ridiculous and closed.

Not quite - but it's close.

Irish Blues is offline  
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