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Hasek the Greatest Player ever?

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Old
01-03-2006, 01:54 AM
  #26
Pete Rock
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I've always gauged greatness on who showed up for the big games.

It was recently brought up that Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur were the best goaltenders of the last twenty years. Roy has 3 Conn Smythe's, something that neither of Hasek nor Brodeur have any of.

The choice is pretty clear for me.

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01-03-2006, 03:27 AM
  #27
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I would pick Roy, Tretiak, maybe Plante before Hasek, without any doubt top-10 goaltender all-time, arguably top-5. As for Defenseman and forwards, I would EASILY take players like Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky before him. I would probably take Gordie Howe, Mario Lemieux, Jean Béliveau and Maurice Richard before him and maybe I would take Guy Lafleur, Bobby Hull and Pierre Dagenais before him. Top-20 All-time IMO.

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01-03-2006, 05:14 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Rock
I've always gauged greatness on who showed up for the big games.

It was recently brought up that Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur were the best goaltenders of the last twenty years. Roy has 3 Conn Smythe's, something that neither of Hasek nor Brodeur have any of.

The choice is pretty clear for me.
Roy's big game greatness is overrated. Sure, he's had some moments of pure clutch (3 Conn Smythe's); but he actually has a losing record in game 7's. That's not consistantly showing up for big games.
1. Hasek
2. Roy
3. Brodeur

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Old
01-03-2006, 07:10 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Dom has 6 Vezinas, 2 Harts, 2 Pearsons, and Olympic Gold. It's not his fault he played the vast majority of his career on teams incapable of winning.
Don't forget the Stanley Cup in Detroit. I forget how many Hart trophies Roy and Brodeur have. Oh, that's right, zero. Glad I remembered.

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01-03-2006, 07:37 AM
  #30
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Cross-generational comparisons should be punishable by death. The notion that players at different positions could be quantified (i.e., greatest player instead of goaltender - talk about ambitous) is silly, and the idea that they could subsequently be compared is insane. Trophies, awards, and even titles only serve to skew the argument more. The goal here should be to make the best attempt to isolate the players under discussion from their teams, measure them according to their peers, throw out the subjective (the awards), and realize at the end of the day that a simple, unqualified answer cannot be obtained. While I'm at it, I'd also like a pony, bicycle, and fire engine for next Xmas.

This thread is really about a battle of wills, between posters, that is.

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01-03-2006, 07:57 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corto
Hm... Top-3 goalies all-time IMO, maybe the best of all time.

It's tough to compare goalies to skaters, but IMO, Gretzky's way out on his own, then Mario, Orr... Howe, Messier... Hasek's top-10, top-15 probably (IMO), both him and Patrick Roy.
I will always argue that Gretzky's careeer was greatly aided by:


1. The era and team he played in/on(Why do you think people finally started learning the fine art of goaltending)

2. And The "You look at Gretzky wrong, his bodyguard beats you to an inch of your life rule" Everybody was scared to touch the guy for the first half of his career.

Ahem, anywho, back to Hasek....Whoever said they'd rate him top 20 all time , I'd agree with them.

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01-03-2006, 09:35 PM
  #32
Pete Rock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine
Roy's big game greatness is overrated. Sure, he's had some moments of pure clutch (3 Conn Smythe's); but he actually has a losing record in game 7's. That's not consistantly showing up for big games.
1. Hasek
2. Roy
3. Brodeur
And you're vastly underrating the value of a Conn Smythe trophy; it's awarded to the best player in the playoffs which is essentially, but not entirely, clutch play throughout the playoffs. These can hardly be labeled as "moments" but are really more playing above and beyond all of your peers for long stretches of time.

As far as I know, Roy is actually 6-6 in Game 7's, but I could be wrong. Regardless, I don't think that having a losing record in Game 7's is necessarily indicative of "not being clutch" because it could have been the play of the goaltender that got the team to Game 7 in the first place, but his record is certainly worth noting.

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01-03-2006, 10:00 PM
  #33
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Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Mario, Messier, both Hulls, Roy, Sawchuk, Yzerman. There's 10 better than Hasek and I can probably find 10 more.

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01-03-2006, 10:17 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWINK19
Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Mario, Messier, both Hulls, Roy, Sawchuk, Yzerman. There's 10 better than Hasek and I can probably find 10 more.
Bobby Hull...possibly

Brett Hull? Not even close

As much as I love Steve Yzerman, I would have a hard time arguing him ahead of Hasek as well. Messier too.

Looking objectively, there's very very few players who have dominated for such a long stretch like Hasek did. He's not the most loved guy in the world like Yzerman, but his impact was far greater IMO

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Old
01-03-2006, 10:58 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCR
Tretiak was the greatest goalie of all time.

I would put Patrick Roy and Martin Brodeur ahead of Hasek
Tretiak is the greatest goalie of all time based on what? 8 games in 1972 where he let in 6 goals when it mattered? A few challenge games against NHL clubs? Or was it his dominance of AHL level players on the international stage? Perhaps his dominance of the Russian league where his Red Army team was stacked with all of the stars and the rest of the league was a bunch of farm teams?

What evidence could you possibly have to justify Tretiak as #1 all time? The man faced minor league talent for all but about 25 games of his career.

Considering that Hasek won more Vezinas than Roy and Brodeur combined, I have a hard time with putting them ahead.

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01-04-2006, 04:05 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Tretiak is the greatest goalie of all time based on what? 8 games in 1972 where he let in 6 goals when it mattered? A few challenge games against NHL clubs? Or was it his dominance of AHL level players on the international stage? Perhaps his dominance of the Russian league where his Red Army team was stacked with all of the stars and the rest of the league was a bunch of farm teams?

What evidence could you possibly have to justify Tretiak as #1 all time? The man faced minor league talent for all but about 25 games of his career.

Considering that Hasek won more Vezinas than Roy and Brodeur combined, I have a hard time with putting them ahead.
I´m certainly not a big Tretiak fan, but this post has "North American ignorance" written all over it.

Where are Adam and Jamie? We need Myth Busters in hockey too! Red Army having ALL the stars? Guys like Maltsev, Vasiliev, Yakushev, Shadrin, Liapkin didn´t play for CSKA. And Red Army did not win the championship in ´74 and ´76, for instance. Nitpicking? Well, you are exaggerating.

AND other Soviet teams almost ALWAYS did very well against NHL teams. What does that tell you about the quality of the NHL? But these were just exhibition games with NHL teams just fooling around and Russian teams trying their best, right? Excuses matter only when they come from North Americans. IT`S OUR GAME GODDAMIT! GUNG HO!

So, Tretiak played only 25 "real" games in his life, eh? Yeah, the European teams like Czechoslovakia were really crappy. But wait a minute... A certain Team Canada ´76 (often hailed here as the best team ever iced) got beaten by them and had another life and death game (won in OT) in the 2nd final of the Canada Cup ´76. A bit odd, don´t you think?

And Sweden was pretty good throughout the ´70s also. For instance, at the ´73 WCs they had Borje Salming, Ulf Nilsson, Anders Hedberg, Ulf Sterner and many other good players on the team.

But I guess you´ve already made your mind up about certain things so I shouldn´t have bothered.

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01-04-2006, 07:13 AM
  #37
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First, I believe it is very hard to equate positions or eras. There are too many variances.

But even within his own era and at his position, I would pick other goalers over him. I do not equate regular season and playoffs equally either.

Hasek has had a great career and will be a slam dunk hall of famer. But he is only one of the great goalers of his era, along with Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur among others.


Last edited by Chili: 01-04-2006 at 12:08 PM.
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01-04-2006, 09:15 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanley
This thread is really about a battle of wills, between posters, that is.

Well said and too often true.

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01-04-2006, 12:57 PM
  #39
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I would put him in the top 20 range. As for goaltenders he would be below Sawchuk and Roy.

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01-04-2006, 01:46 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus-74
I´m certainly not a big Tretiak fan, but this post has "North American ignorance" written all over it.

Where are Adam and Jamie? We need Myth Busters in hockey too! Red Army having ALL the stars? Guys like Maltsev, Vasiliev, Yakushev, Shadrin, Liapkin didn´t play for CSKA. And Red Army did not win the championship in ´74 and ´76, for instance. Nitpicking? Well, you are exaggerating.

AND other Soviet teams almost ALWAYS did very well against NHL teams. What does that tell you about the quality of the NHL? But these were just exhibition games with NHL teams just fooling around and Russian teams trying their best, right? Excuses matter only when they come from North Americans. IT`S OUR GAME GODDAMIT! GUNG HO!

So, Tretiak played only 25 "real" games in his life, eh? Yeah, the European teams like Czechoslovakia were really crappy. But wait a minute... A certain Team Canada ´76 (often hailed here as the best team ever iced) got beaten by them and had another life and death game (won in OT) in the 2nd final of the Canada Cup ´76. A bit odd, don´t you think?

And Sweden was pretty good throughout the ´70s also. For instance, at the ´73 WCs they had Borje Salming, Ulf Nilsson, Anders Hedberg, Ulf Sterner and many other good players on the team.

But I guess you´ve already made your mind up about certain things so I shouldn´t have bothered.
Great rant but, you have not really made a case for Tretiak. He faced weaker competition than NHL goaltenders did. Sure, there were some good players over there but, even today, the NHL is made up of 50% Canadians. The NHL has always been superior to the European hockey leagues.

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01-04-2006, 02:09 PM
  #41
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well listen if your talking about the greatest hockey player ever the discussion should start and end with Gretzky... case closed.

In terms of goaltenders he has to be in the top five i personally have him as #2 behind Roy and i do beleive Broduer will probably be up there with them by the time he's done playing and has probably has a chance to be the best ever by the time hes done playing... but he's not up there with them yet.

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01-04-2006, 02:43 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Great rant but, you have not really made a case for Tretiak. He faced weaker competition than NHL goaltenders did. Sure, there were some good players over there but, even today, the NHL is made up of 50% Canadians. The NHL has always been superior to the European hockey leagues.
I'm not disagreeging with you regarding the level Tretjak faced in general, but you can't really go by the number of players by nationality as such.

Even today, at least about the last 200 Canadians from NHL are "worse" players than the most first or second liners in major European leagues teams (often future or past NHL-players) or some European prospects playing in AHL. If they were playing in the same team with these Canadians, the Euros would be in the top lines and the Canadians still in the third/fourth line.

These Europeans just aren't good enough to play in the top lines in the NHL, which doesn't mean they are worse than every Canadian playing in the NHL.

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01-05-2006, 02:56 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Tretiak is the greatest goalie of all time based on what? 8 games in 1972 where he let in 6 goals when it mattered?
Don't forget Tretiak was only 20 during the summit series - he was nowhere near his prime. That's the equivalent (today) of an 1985-86 born goaltender playing in 1 of the highest level and most intense series of all time. Certainly a couple notches above Cup play-off level. Considering his age and how well he played, it's absolutely astounding.

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01-05-2006, 03:13 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Great rant but, you have not really made a case for Tretiak. He faced weaker competition than NHL goaltenders did. Sure, there were some good players over there but, even today, the NHL is made up of 50% Canadians. The NHL has always been superior to the European hockey leagues.
I wasn´t even trying to make a case for Tretiak. I think he´s overrated and would take Hasek over him in a second. I just think you made some ridiculous and very "American" claims concerning the worthiness of the competition he faced during his career, that´s all...

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01-05-2006, 06:46 AM
  #45
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definitely, Hasek is one of the most entertaining/exciting players to watch... like Gretz, you often saw things you've never seen before by a guy who MUST have eyes in the back of his head.

while one could make a (weak) case for Hasek as greatest player ever...

even if he wins Olympic gold this year, the vezina again, and a conn smythe and another stanley cup... he could STILL be easily said NOT to be the greatest player ever, though his pedigree as the greatest goaltender ever would be easier to see

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01-06-2006, 08:22 PM
  #46
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No, Hasek isn't even the greatest goal tender of all time.

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01-06-2006, 08:35 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
No, Hasek isn't even the greatest goal tender of all time.
True, but 2nd best goaltender ain't bad.

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01-06-2006, 08:48 PM
  #48
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You could argue that Hasek, at his peak, was the most dominant player at his position in NHL history. I wonder how many wins he'd have if it hadn't taken him so long to become a starter.

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01-08-2006, 02:50 PM
  #49
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I agree with nacho. I never liked Hasek, and I like standups, I myself am one. However he is not butterfly either. He just kinda flys around. He crazy. Although he does seem to figure out how to stop the puck in the process.

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01-08-2006, 02:53 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novosad67
I agree with nacho. I never liked Hasek, and I like standups, I myself am one. However he is not butterfly either. He just kinda flys around. He crazy. Although he does seem to figure out how to stop the puck in the process.
And that is the most important thing! If I was a coach, I didn't care how my goaltender stops the puck….as long as he stops the puck

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