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KHL Expansion Part VII

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Old
04-23-2016, 07:28 AM
  #26
Jussi
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
What do you think about Lev?

You do know that they rarely filled that arena? And were a financial failure? Come on, stop picking selective stats.


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Old
04-23-2016, 07:56 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Arlus View Post
I resonate with the idea that the current system of national leagues should be reshaped, this being one of the aspects that made me to be interested in KHL, in the first place.
In what way?

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04-23-2016, 08:00 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Exarz View Post
I've actually seen a lot of AIK fans positive about the KHL. They're tired of sticking around in HockeyAllsvenskan and want to be "the best team in Sweden".

This is of course if they don't get promoted to the SHL
Good to hear that some AIK fans would welcome KHL.

I just dont understand one thing. As reported KHL wants established euro clubs under Chernyshenko´s leadership. Offer to AIK last summer is a proof of this attitude. I dont understand why KHL gave up so quickly, why not to negotiate with AIK until agreed on joining? What was possition of AIK: 1) no, we dont want to join KHL in principle or 2) you know, SIHA is against so we can do nothing... and most important, who negotiated for AIK? Some chairman or Tornqvist? If chairman then there is a chance that Tornqvist will change opinion in future? If KHL did not negotiate with Tornqvist directly, then I ask why?

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04-23-2016, 09:47 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Good to hear that some AIK fans would welcome KHL.

I just dont understand one thing. As reported KHL wants established euro clubs under Chernyshenko´s leadership. Offer to AIK last summer is a proof of this attitude.
I dont understand why KHL gave up so quickly, why not to negotiate with AIK until agreed on joining? What was possition of AIK: 1) no, we dont want to join KHL in principle or
2) you know, SIHA is against so we can do nothing... and most important, who negotiated for AIK? Some chairman or Tornqvist? If chairman then there is a chance that
Tornqvist will change opinion in future? If KHL did not negotiate with Tornqvist directly, then I ask why?
It doesn't matter what AIK wants or don't want. SwIHF's current stance is that they will not approve a Swedish team in the KHL so AIK just have to do as SwIHF says.

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04-23-2016, 10:38 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
I was just repying to KHL-haters. The KHL is a great league and people enjoys their games, whatever clownade they write.
This kind of people need to realize that the KHL is the best hockey there is in Europe right now and if in Sweden/Finland/Czech R./Germany/whatever will appear a team, that team will most likely be well-attended, even more than in their beloved lilliput leagues, which right now in modern world is a thing for losers.
The fact that KHL is based in Russia, well, if Russia was able to create such a good league and European countries are not, that is not Russia's problem.
Yes, I am such a KHL hater that I occasionally pay to attend KHL matches. This is an absurd idea, no matter how do you view it.

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04-23-2016, 11:44 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Desdichado62 View Post
It doesn't matter what AIK wants or don't want. SwIHF's current stance is that they will not approve a Swedish team in the KHL so AIK just have to do as SwIHF says.
I am aware of it.

Lets compare euro hockey and basketball. You know that there is a conflict among Euroleague and FIBA Europe. FIBA Europe created its own Champions League and wants to suspend national federations whose clubs stays in Euroleague. Reaction of majority of national basketball federations was to accept FIBA position, but clubs still want to stay in Euroleague. So we have following situations:

1. national basketball/hockey federations forbid clubs to participate in Euroleague/KHL and play in Basket Champions League/CHL. Is it abuse of a dominant position by federations?

2. Clubs wants to play in Euroleague/KHL. Is playing in closed league an anticompetitive practice as FIBA thinks?

Of course there are differences:

Russian is not a member of EU and I dont know if Russia has an agreement with EU which would apply to this case. On the other hand CSKA Basketball is part of Euroleague complaint to Commision. And antimonopol rules applies to Gazprom which is russian company.

CHL and IIHF are subject of SUI law. Similar Q as with Russia. Both Euroleague and FIBA Europe are subjects of EU law.

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04-23-2016, 12:57 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
I was just repying to KHL-haters. The KHL is a great league and people enjoys their games, whatever clownade they write.
This kind of people need to realize that the KHL is the best hockey there is in Europe right now and if in Sweden/Finland/Czech R./Germany/whatever will appear a team, that team will most likely be well-attended, even more than in their beloved lilliput leagues, which right now in modern world is a thing for losers.
The fact that KHL is based in Russia, well, if Russia was able to create such a good league and European countries are not, that is not Russia's problem.
Man, you are going very huffy here... There is something I've been saying here for a really long time: the reason we all share our ideas here is the fact that we love KHL. Some REALLY do, some are just interested in the league because of their teams but in the end, we spend time here because we want to see this league develop. So, no need to be that offended with negative feedbacks which in fact has their valid points.

KHL is growing and arguably the best league in Europe, only second to NHL in world. Okay... But this won't solve our problem. Nobody here talks about KHL's quality but the problems likely to arise with the addition of Crowns. As TommySalo said, this is probably a satellite team to delve into Swedish market and see what can be done in future to snatch a "real" one. However, I don't like this idea because I believe KHL needs to stabilize itself. I enjoyed seeing Lev and Donbass and they're all gone. I don't want this to be the case with Kunlun or Crowns, either.

Aside from that, why would you call local leagues a loser thing? Not every country has developed ice hockey infrastructure while some have an ice hockey culture & tradition. While I would love to see KHL become a pan-European league with many more teams, I also support local leagues - because they are not a "loser" but actually "winner" thing. I just don't understand why would someone call DEL, Liiga or SHL loser.

KHL is great but come on, you are being too picky.

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04-23-2016, 01:09 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
Man, you are going very huffy here... There is something I've been saying here for a really long time: the reason we all share our ideas here is the fact that we love KHL. Some REALLY do, some are just interested in the league because of their teams but in the end, we spend time here because we want to see this league develop. So, no need to be that offended with negative feedbacks which in fact has their valid points.

KHL is growing and arguably the best league in Europe, only second to NHL in world. Okay... But this won't solve our problem. Nobody here talks about KHL's quality but the problems likely to arise with the addition of Crowns. As TommySalo said, this is probably a satellite team to delve into Swedish market and see what can be done in future to snatch a "real" one. However, I don't like this idea because I believe KHL needs to stabilize itself. I enjoyed seeing Lev and Donbass and they're all gone. I don't want this to be the case with Kunlun or Crowns, either.

Aside from that, why would you call local leagues a loser thing? Not every country has developed ice hockey infrastructure while some have an ice hockey culture & tradition. While I would love to see KHL become a pan-European league with many more teams, I also support local leagues - because they are not a "loser" but actually "winner" thing. I just don't understand why would someone call DEL, Liiga or SHL loser.

KHL is great but come on, you are being too picky.
The Kunlun team is a slam dunk. It's a symbol of the growing sino-russian partnership, no matter the price tag necessary it will be maintained and will also be one of the clubs given deferential treatment.

The crowns idea is...well to be fair the candidate for the Crowns job is also a candidate for the Austria job so I'm not going to be too big a fan any time soon. Expressen did a poll and 70% of swedes did not want a KHL team in Sweden...

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Old
04-23-2016, 01:10 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by kabidjan18 View Post
The Kunlun team is a slam dunk. It's a symbol of the growing sino-russian partnership, no matter the price tag necessary it will be maintained and will also be one of the clubs given deferential treatment.

The crowns idea is...well to be fair the candidate for the Crowns job is also a candidate for the Austria job so I'm not going to be too big a fan any time soon. Expressen did a poll and 70% of swedes did not want a KHL team in Sweden...
Aftonbladet also did a poll and more than 70% thinks the project will fail. (It was a 3 way poll, the fail one was 71%, the other was "maybe if they change the people in charge" or "yes it could work").

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04-23-2016, 01:19 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by kabidjan18 View Post
The Kunlun team is a slam dunk. It's a symbol of the growing sino-russian partnership, no matter the price tag necessary it will be maintained and will also be one of the clubs given deferential treatment.

The crowns idea is...well to be fair the candidate for the Crowns job is also a candidate for the Austria job so I'm not going to be too big a fan any time soon. Expressen did a poll and 70% of swedes did not want a KHL team in Sweden...
Yeah, Kunlun is very highly unlikely to share the fate of Lev and Donbass. Just wanted to add them as well since they are a newly-founded team.

I just keep hoping that Russia and Ukraine will make peace very soon so we can have Donbass back and maybe even a team from Kyiv. I know there were plans for that. I'd happily take this train to Kyiv for 10hrs to watch some good hockey - if not, Donetsk is OK too.

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04-23-2016, 03:49 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
Yeah, Kunlun is very highly unlikely to share the fate of Lev and Donbass. Just wanted to add them as well since they are a newly-founded team.

I just keep hoping that Russia and Ukraine will make peace very soon so we can have Donbass back and maybe even a team from Kyiv. I know there were plans for that. I'd happily take this train to Kyiv for 10hrs to watch some good hockey - if not, Donetsk is OK too.
Not gonna happen.

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Old
04-23-2016, 04:55 PM
  #37
Alessandro Seren Rosso
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
I just don't understand why would someone call DEL, Liiga or SHL loser.
Yes, ok, these are good leagues. Very good leagues (not the DEL, which is a great product and all, but the quality of the hockey isn't on par with the other ones). I ain't gonna argue that and with the KHL as it is right now my wish is for those leagues to become better and better for the best of European and global hockey.
But I also think that staying in the small pond to be the biggest fish is for losers. Not going to the big pond to fight with the biggest fish is for losers. If a team has a chance to play in the KHL, why just not go? (Theoretically speaking, of course it's not that easy IRL).
What is sport about if not competing with the best to become/show the world you're the best yourself?

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04-23-2016, 04:58 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
You do know that they rarely filled that arena? And were a financial failure? Come on, stop picking selective stats.
Financial failure has little to do with fans. Maybe they filled up that arena a bit rarely, but they were the most attended team in Prague so you should just stop acting like everyone hates the KHL and Russia. Maybe you do, fine, but don't pretend the whole world does too.

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04-23-2016, 05:12 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Financial failure has little to do with fans. Maybe they filled up that arena a bit rarely, but they were the most attended team in Prague so you should just stop acting like everyone hates the KHL and Russia. Maybe you do, fine, but don't pretend the whole world does too.
Maybe you can meet half way (even though I do think the only reason you think Jussi hates KHL is because he doesn't agree with everything you say), and you stop acting like everyone loves KHL and every club should/wants to join? Would that work?

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04-23-2016, 05:20 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Maybe you can meet half way (even though I do think the only reason you think Jussi hates KHL is because he doesn't agree with everything you say), and you stop acting like everyone loves KHL and every club should/wants to join? Would that work?
Never said that. I am only posting actual stuff: Lev was the best attended team in Prague. Jokerit has a great attendance. Slovan has too. And I'm not even talking about Minsk, Riga, Astana. You can write how many but's you want, but every but you write won't remove even one fan from protocols.
I am fine with everyone who hates/doesn't love/doesn't care about the KHL, but they should admit it.
I don't care about the NHL myself, do you see me posting in the NHL boards about things I don't care? I don't care, thus I don't post.

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04-23-2016, 05:23 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Never said that. I am only posting actual stuff: Lev was the best attended team in Prague. Jokerit has a great attendance. Slovan has too. And I'm not even talking about Minsk, Riga, Astana. You can write how many but's you want, but every but you write won't remove even one fan from protocols.
I am fine with everyone who hates/doesn't love/doesn't care about the KHL, but they should admit it.
I don't care about the NHL myself, do you see me posting in the NHL boards about things I don't care? I don't care, thus I don't post.
Do you see me post outside of the KHL expansion thread in this section? No, because the KHL expansion into Sweden is the only thing I care about regarding KHL. I'm not a hater, I just say it like it is from the swedish point of view, and if you noticed, all Swedes here say the exact same thing, even if Exarz is more KHL friendly than the rest of us, he also says it's very very very unlikely a Swedish team would be a success in KHL, and that Crowns is pretty much guaranteed to fail.

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04-23-2016, 07:04 PM
  #42
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Not gonna happen.
Looking at the current picture, I know it sounds stupid to say Ukraine and Russia will make peace and go hand in hand yet I believe they have just too strong ties to be enemies. Europe, unaware of the importance of Ukraine for them, doesn't support Ukraine enough - while western and central part of the country is more than ready to be part of Eurozone. If things keep going like that, Russia will keep its influence on UKR and slowly take them back; not on soil but in soul. Ukraine was a hugely important piece of land even back in USSR, being the naughty boy and creating problems for the Motherland but in the end, everything settled down. This will, as well. Anyway, I will keep having my wet dream of having a Kiev & Donbas or Kiev & Moscow derby in near future. I love it. And I am not trolling - I really believe they will keep getting along well in next couple of years. You can't fight like that for 10 years. Maybe Russia can, but Ukraine cannot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Yes, ok, these are good leagues. Very good leagues (not the DEL, which is a great product and all, but the quality of the hockey isn't on par with the other ones). I ain't gonna argue that and with the KHL as it is right now my wish is for those leagues to become better and better for the best of European and global hockey.
But I also think that staying in the small pond to be the biggest fish is for losers. Not going to the big pond to fight with the biggest fish is for losers. If a team has a chance to play in the KHL, why just not go? (Theoretically speaking, of course it's not that easy IRL).
What is sport about if not competing with the best to become/show the world you're the best yourself?
This mentality is very one-sided and from KHL perspective only. When you are second best league in the world, you gotta be paying A LOT. I do not have exact or detailed numbers for KHL salaries but our Finnish friends here write about Jokerit from time to time and their yearly losses are around 10M Euros and this is for a country where hockey is like a religion. Now think about it: Why would a team from Sweden or Germany relocate to KHL with immense expenses when they can keep the high level of play and become the best in their hood? The places they were born, they lived, they learned ice hockey? Why is this "loser" and what's wrong with that? Moreover, why would you be "loser" for not wanting to be the world's best? It's not about being loser but knowing what you are. Some people or teams do not have such ambitions. They are actually fine even without being the best.

Moreover, KHL is still a heavily Russian-based league. Post-USSR countries are not so difficult to lure but problems are inevitable when you are after a Swedish or German team. Politics come into play at some point and I honestly believe that the strong resentment & repellency from Swedes towards KHL is not only about ice hockey - they simply do not trust or love being part of a Russian-based league. Talk about a Scandinavian Elite League or something like that and I am sure most of them would change their mind at least a little bit.

I see your point but I think it's based on totally personal assumptions and ideas which doesn't apply well into economics & politics & sports. Traditions play a big part in European sports; that's another issue. Hockey is relatively "conserved" compared to football or basketball, where fans may want to meet the best of the world. For example, Goteborg fans would definitely love playing against Barcelona instead of Kalmar; but they want to see Frölunda play in Sweden, not in the best league of the world or CSKA or Vladivostok. A different mentality and I can't blame them - when you already have an established ice hockey culture in existence, when you are Barcelona of ice hockey yourselves, why would you want to ruin it by losing one or two teams?


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04-23-2016, 09:00 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Financial failure has little to do with fans. Maybe they filled up that arena a bit rarely, but they were the most attended team in Prague so you should just stop acting like everyone hates the KHL and Russia. Maybe you do, fine, but don't pretend the whole world does too.
Because there was no other club hockey that year. If they actually had been supported, that pep rally would have more than 20-30 people show up.

Would you please stop the KHL/Russia hating crap, you've never been able to prove any of it, you just throw those labels around desperately hoping they stick. That kind of behaviour is frankly embarrassing for someone having "Staff" under their username.

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04-23-2016, 09:03 PM
  #44
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Never said that. I am only posting actual stuff: Lev was the best attended team in Prague. Jokerit has a great attendance. Slovan has too. And I'm not even talking about Minsk, Riga, Astana. You can write how many but's you want, but every but you write won't remove even one fan from protocols.
I am fine with everyone who hates/doesn't love/doesn't care about the KHL, but they should admit it.
I don't care about the NHL myself, do you see me posting in the NHL boards about things I don't care? I don't care, thus I don't post.
It'd be much lower if not for several free ticket and bundle ticket campaigns. Besides, it's already known that KHL is not good business for Jokerit (which their CEO Kohonen even publicly admitted).

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04-24-2016, 03:15 AM
  #45
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I am on Alessandro side here. There are posters who are Russia/KHL haters, but I would not like name them, we all know who I am talking.


European hockey fans should want euro hockey to be as strong as possible. If you want strong league/s you need best possible players and money to pay them. European domestic leagues/clubs have not best players nor money because all best going to NHL. It is not a problem that players going to NHL of course. Problem is that NHL does not pay fair transfer fees for players. Only way how to force NHL to pay fair compensations is if euro hockey clubs are united (including Russia) and have big money. KHL has ambition to unite euro clubs and is possible to lure big money to league. And what Euros has been doing? They fight against KHL (instead of cooperation with KHL) - CHL and Euro Club Association are proofs of such behavior. This euro federations attitude if cancer of euro hockey.

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04-24-2016, 03:19 AM
  #46
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Not gonna happen.
Depends on who is in power in Ukraine. Current government is becoming more and more unpopular.
You can look at Georgia for comparsion. During Saakashvili reign Gerogia and Russia even had a direct confrontation.
But now, with new government trade has been reestablished and georgian students are coming to study again.
And the curent government in Georgia isn't pro-russian. But they don't act as agitators against Russia like the previous one did.

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04-24-2016, 03:33 AM
  #47
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Do you see me post outside of the KHL expansion thread in this section? No, because the KHL expansion into Sweden is the only thing I care about regarding KHL. I'm not a hater, I just say it like it is from the swedish point of view, and if you noticed, all Swedes here say the exact same thing, even if Exarz is more KHL friendly than the rest of us, he also says it's very very very unlikely a Swedish team would be a success in KHL, and that Crowns is pretty much guaranteed to fail.
There's a russian proverb, to go against my mom I will freeze my ears. That's the attitude of swedes here. Because sport is degradating and losing it's positions to soccer and you prefer to keep status quo going.

So, let's be honest. Swedes who hang out at hfboards are a very specific and small demographic of people who are so much intrested in hockey they actually take care to go to a foreign message board and discuss hockey stuff in foreign language.

You guys are intrested in NHL and some of you are intrested in SHL, so that's it. The majority of people however are going to arenas because they want to spend some quality time.

Fact is. Best soccer avaliable is easily accesed in Sweden, because it is played in same geographical timezone.
Best hockey starts when majority of people are in their beds, resting after a hard working day of creating tax revenew for their government.
Add wonderful attitude of swedish NHL stars concerning WC and swedes can't watch best quality hockey at prime time for the whole year.

So, this silent majority of people prefer soccer, because it's easy to see best soccer in the World from APL or Bundesliga for example. And media hypes it much more, because of obvious reasons.

One thing KHL has definately done in Russia is the fact that they have reestablished this interest for hockey in Russia and shifted the focus from "there's NHL and everything else is crap" to "NHL is №1 but KHL is great too". There's a sense of something big.

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04-24-2016, 04:47 AM
  #48
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Anders Larsson was interviewed by TASS. He said two interesting sentences:

1.Our league is behind NHL and KHL, but we plan to make stronger our league in near future. I ask, how?

2. We dont close doors for #KHL, maybe we can cooperate in future/can consider our cooperation. I ask, how can SIHA and KHL cooperate (if not SWE KHL club)?

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04-24-2016, 06:12 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I am on Alessandro side here. There are posters who are Russia/KHL haters, but I would not like name them, we all know who I am talking.


European hockey fans should want euro hockey to be as strong as possible. If you want strong league/s you need best possible players and money to pay them. European domestic leagues/clubs have not best players nor money because all best going to NHL. It is not a problem that players going to NHL of course. Problem is that NHL does not pay fair transfer fees for players. Only way how to force NHL to pay fair compensations is if euro hockey clubs are united (including Russia) and have big money. KHL has ambition to unite euro clubs and is possible to lure big money to league. And what Euros has been doing? They fight against KHL (instead of cooperation with KHL) - CHL and Euro Club Association are proofs of such behavior. This euro federations attitude if cancer of euro hockey.
We do not want hockey to be as strong as possible whatever the cost. We do not look at SHL and think "man what a crap league". The reality is that the gap between KHL and SHL is so much smaller than the gap between NHL and KHL. We've already got several teams that could easily play in KHL without too much roster changing.
We do not look at KHL and think "man what great hockey, wish we had that too", we look at it and go "meh, it's slightly better, but there's way too much negative stuff with the league for it to even begin being worth it".

KHL does not have big money. As soon as you realize this the better. Almost every club is losing money. Jokerit lost 10million euro last season, and when the russians decide they don't want to fund the project anymore? Then what happens? Does Jokerit cut their budget and becomes one of the worst teams in KHL, which is a death sentence? Does Jokerit fold? Does Jokerit go back to Liiga?

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04-24-2016, 06:21 AM
  #50
vorky
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Quote:
Därmed kommer Crowns ha en dubbelt så stor lönebudget som SHL-klubbarna och de bäst betalda spelarna kommer tjäna drygt en miljon kronor i månaden.
google translate

Quote:
Thus, the Crowns have twice the salary budget SHL clubs and the best paid players will earn more than a million per month.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportblade...cle22674278.ab

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