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The KHL Discuss the Continental Hockey League (Kontinentalnaya Hokkeynaya Liga).

KHL Expansion Part VII

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Old
02-09-2017, 05:07 AM
  #551
alko
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
LOL... One Korean and one Japanese team, maybe... But another Chinese team? Seriously? What are they even trying to do?
Why not? China is big, very big country. With lot of money. And that is what count in KHL at first place. Yes, you can have another team from traditional country like Slovakia (there was talk about Zvolen or Kosice). But look to Slovan issues. Every year they have problem with money. KHL dont want to save a team every season. They want to have a strong owners, they dont have any of these problems.

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02-09-2017, 02:31 PM
  #552
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I think having a Chinese club at all was the 1st breaking point for the league regarding Asian expansion. When the Chinese are introduced to hockey, an attempt to:
- make the KHL their primary hockey interest (potentially a larger fanbase than both the NHL and the KHL at this time combined);
- speed up the process of binding fans to teams by creating a rivalry;
- secure a healthy influx of non-Russian money from Chinese owners;
- create one more financially attractive haven for the pool of players
can be made by starting another KHL franchise. If they stick, it will be also tremendous for the growth of the game overall.

Would I prefer a team in Seoul or somewhere in Japan? Probably. A team in Krasnoyarsk? Likely, when the conomy grows again. But trying to expand into China again is a low-risk, high-reward idea, so I can't see what's wwrong with it.

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02-09-2017, 03:57 PM
  #553
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Well I'm not sure how successful KHL can be when they need the investment from Chinese businessmen to run a hockey league going. I get your arguments but to me it seems like they are just trying to force a market in a country which has no idea what hockey is. Just political ties and rich Chinese men. I'm sure nowhere in the world has a sport flourished this way - please don't tell me about how Americans started loving hockey and got even better than Canadians. It's ****in' United States, they have the best of everything. China? Nobody is interested in team sports. And putting two "financially-stable" teams in KHL will not change it.

I admire their will to change and make KHL a better league but just maybe they need to give up and go back to RSL. At a time like that when Russia is slapped with sanctions and frowned upon, maybe keeping it local is a better idea.

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02-09-2017, 04:28 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
I admire their will to change and make KHL a better league but just maybe they need to give up and go back to RSL. At a time like that when Russia is slapped with sanctions and frowned upon, maybe keeping it local is a better idea.
Why? I don't get this logic at all. Financially stable teams in China are bad? This is the least sensible thing I read in a long while. And I'm on HFBoards everyday so that's telling something.

Like Acallabeth said, it's LOW RISK - high reward idea. If it doesn't work it doesn't. What's the worst what can happen? And if it does work it's great.

50 years ago nobody gave a damn about hockey in California either, 5 years ago they had 3 of world's very best teams there.

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02-09-2017, 05:04 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post
Like Acallabeth said, it's LOW RISK - high reward idea. If it doesn't work it doesn't. What's the worst what can happen? And if it does work it's great.
This. You need to test the waters and take risks if you want to get somewhere. I would love a team in Shanghai because if I've understood it correctly, Beijing and Shanghai hate each other. Wasn't this a factor to the really low attendance numbers in Shanghai as well? A Kunlun Red Star Beijing vs "Shanghai Shenhua" game would attract more media attention to the game of hockey than a game vs SKA, CSKA or any other team in the league.

But they should not hesitate with a second team. Let Kunlun test the market for at least 3 seasons before they make any decisions for a second team.

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02-09-2017, 08:05 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
.... It's ****in' United States, they have the best of everything. China? Nobody is interested in team sports. .
That's pretty ignorant.
Those very people are tripping over themselves, beating a path to Beijing for a reason.

Hint: it ain't for the fresh, pristine air.

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/1...on-games-china


Last edited by mtngoat: 02-12-2017 at 09:25 PM.
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02-10-2017, 03:06 AM
  #557
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
Well I'm not sure how successful KHL can be when they need the investment from Chinese businessmen to run a hockey league going. I get your arguments but to me it seems like they are just trying to force a market in a country which has no idea what hockey is. Just political ties and rich Chinese men. I'm sure nowhere in the world has a sport flourished this way - please don't tell me about how Americans started loving hockey and got even better than Canadians. It's ****in' United States, they have the best of everything. China? Nobody is interested in team sports. And putting two "financially-stable" teams in KHL will not change it.

I admire their will to change and make KHL a better league but just maybe they need to give up and go back to RSL. At a time like that when Russia is slapped with sanctions and frowned upon, maybe keeping it local is a better idea.
I don't understand this defeatism at all.
The KHL or the hockey community don't have a century until the Chinese develop an interest in such a niche game as hockey themselves. Sometimes the hand of fate must be forced. The K is aiming at something that was never done before, you don't achieve the unlikely without making bold moves, you also don't hide your tail between your legs at the earliest obstacles.
Besides, I wholeheartedly disagree that the Chinese aren't into team sports, look at the Chinese Footbal Super League attendance explosion from just 10k 10 years ago to impressive 24k in 2016, with the most loved team peaking at 45k. If these guys aren't into team sports, only Americans and Germans are, and we should just abandon all Russian leagues too. KHL will start another team in China, and the Chinese will love it, dammit!


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02-10-2017, 07:39 AM
  #558
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Poles, French, English. What are they doing in the elite?

In the Champions League our coaches have had the chance to measure their brain with the most advanced European specialists. It plays well-known Russian fans legionaries who have made a name for himself in the KHL . In the end, this is the notorious international experience, which we used to get in the game polutovarischeskih Euro Tour. If you manage to deal with the calendar - you can enter tomorrow in the Champions League. At least in order to put in place "Frölunda HC" for two years in the absence of a holding Russian title of the strongest club teams in Europe. But that confused in this project, so it's overkill hockey teams from small countries. So, in the last draw was attended by teams from Poland, Great Britain, Belarus, Denmark, Norway, and just two of the French club, which for two scored only two points. Why strong European hockey tournament Polish "Cracovia", which is less than five goals in a game does not miss, absolutely incomprehensible. By joining the Champions League, our clubs have to be prepared that they will have to meet not only the Swedes and Finns, but also with the teams at the best level of our League. However, next season is expected to reduce the participants from 48 to 32 teams.
https://www.championat.com/hockey/ar...hempionov.html

Maybe Cracovia have like Barys Astana 90% squad Kazachstan in team, games will be better.

2 years ago, in WC IA Kazachstan wins Poland only 3:2


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02-10-2017, 02:03 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by Acallabeth View Post
I don't understand this defeatism at all.
The KHL or the hockey community don't have a century until the Chinese develop an interest in such a niche game as hockey themselves. Sometimes the hand of fate must be forced. The K is aiming at something that was never done before, you don't achieve the unlikely without making bold moves, you also don't hide your tail between your legs at the earliest obstacles.
Besides, I wholeheartedly disagree that the Chinese aren't into team sports, look at the Chinese Footbal Super League attendance explosion from just 10k 10 years ago to impressive 24k in 2016, with the most loved team peaking at 45k. If these guys aren't into team sports, only Americans and Germans are, and we should just abandon all Russian leagues too. KHL will start another team in China, and the Chinese will love it, dammit!

To be fair, we are talking about football. The first time I found out about being able to watch United's games via various streaming programs, they were mostly Chinese. They've airing the EPL there for over a decade and the PRemier League teams off-season friendlies are always sold out. Well all know they're willign to spend absurd amounts on non-Chinese players there but it hasn't shown in any major improvements on the talent level of domestic players. I'm not quite sure how basketball is doing there since Yao Ming's retirement, I do know that they haven't produced any talent even close to him since.

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02-11-2017, 12:00 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post
Like Acallabeth said, it's LOW RISK - high reward idea. If it doesn't work it doesn't. What's the worst what can happen? And if it does work it's great.

50 years ago nobody gave a damn about hockey in California either, 5 years ago they had 3 of world's very best teams there.
This is what I don't understand, to be honest. How come is it a low risk idea? Having two uncompetitive teams with no attendance for a couple of years and then having to show them the door? While I can get the "high reward" part, I think having teams in China is still a high risk venture for the reasons I mentioned. Two more "dead" teams would mean less competition and less prestige. If Chinese teams worked, then yeah, this is pretty awesome; but if it didn't, I wouldn't say "What's the worst what can happen", because it would damage KHL's reputation seriously. After a couple of failed projects, it will be harder to find new "clients" for the league.

As I said earlier, I see no point in comparing China and the US. Totally two different mentalities and countries. The US is a "new" piece of land designed basically for everything with people from everywhere, while China is an actual country with culture and stuff like that. Things could have been different if thousands of people from Canada, Sweden, Russia etc. emigrated to China but it is not the case. Developing hockey in California and developing hockey in China are two different things; mainly because China is a way more "shy" country in terms of cultural influence. I'm not sure how much they can embrace hockey as a nation unless crazy Finns yelling "Torille!" invaded the country. Californian and Chinese cultures. Apples and oranges.

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Originally Posted by Exarz View Post
This. You need to test the waters and take risks if you want to get somewhere. I would love a team in Shanghai because if I've understood it correctly, Beijing and Shanghai hate each other. Wasn't this a factor to the really low attendance numbers in Shanghai as well? A Kunlun Red Star Beijing vs "Shanghai Shenhua" game would attract more media attention to the game of hockey than a game vs SKA, CSKA or any other team in the league.

But they should not hesitate with a second team. Let Kunlun test the market for at least 3 seasons before they make any decisions for a second team.
If testing the water is OK, then it can be done with other teams from Europe as well; but as far as I see, nobody is looking for adventure anymore. What makes Chinese teams less risky than European ones? When there is no interest in hockey, having a Shanghai & Beijing rivalry means nothing. First, you need to generate interest in hockey and then maybe you can fuel it with rivalry. Kunlun project is enough to test the waters, at least for a couple of years. If it works, then second or even third Chinese team would be great additions. However, until then, I am skeptical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acallabeth View Post
I don't understand this defeatism at all.
The KHL or the hockey community don't have a century until the Chinese develop an interest in such a niche game as hockey themselves. Sometimes the hand of fate must be forced. The K is aiming at something that was never done before, you don't achieve the unlikely without making bold moves, you also don't hide your tail between your legs at the earliest obstacles.
Besides, I wholeheartedly disagree that the Chinese aren't into team sports, look at the Chinese Footbal Super League attendance explosion from just 10k 10 years ago to impressive 24k in 2016, with the most loved team peaking at 45k. If these guys aren't into team sports, only Americans and Germans are, and we should just abandon all Russian leagues too. KHL will start another team in China, and the Chinese will love it, dammit!

It's not defeatism, just a different idea. KHL has obstacles eastwards. I'm not telling to hide tail between legs. I'm telling that maybe they must have obstacles westwards or in Russia only. This league called KHL always needs to fight for something, there is no denying that. I just don't like their current strategy. As a fan, I'm interested in high quality, competitive hockey and a stable league; not if China will become a hockey country. It's all about preference. I'm sure Swedes wouldn't like it too much if SHL suddenly decided to add a couple of teams from villages and try making them competitive & lucrative.

Again, I think the comparisons you guys make are irrational. Football and hockey are very different sports. For football, you simply need nothing. Not sure if this is a common practice in other countries as well but at kindergarten, we used to crush a cola can and use it as a ball to play football. To play football, you sometimes do not even need shoes. Sometimes, not even a ball. It's very easy, convenient and cheap to play, watch and learn. It has no ties to anywhere - from Cameroon to Finland, from Argentina to Japan, people KNOW about football and what it's about. Hockey is not like that. Nowhere near. It's an expensive and complicated sport - to love hockey, you kinda have to embrace some "hockey culture". Except for a few countries, you can't "love" hockey out of blue - you need to work for it, unlike football.

So yeah, unless some serious pushes are made to make Chinese people love hockey, I think they will never get interested in hockey. Moreover, football is way more popular and therefore their "stars" can attract more people. If Messi played in China, the whole world including China would crazy. If Ovechkin played for Kunlun... Why would that make Chinese people interested? They simply don't even know or love hockey.

I'm not against Chinese expansion. I'm against teams that have no fans. Financial stability is a very important aspect yet not alone to be a KHL team. But obviously, KHL still wants to experiment. Meh.

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02-12-2017, 08:41 AM
  #561
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
This is what I don't understand, to be honest. How come is it a low risk idea? Having two uncompetitive teams with no attendance for a couple of years and then having to show them the door? While I can get the "high reward" part, I think having teams in China is still a high risk venture for the reasons I mentioned. Two more "dead" teams would mean less competition and less prestige. If Chinese teams worked, then yeah, this is pretty awesome; but if it didn't, I wouldn't say "What's the worst what can happen", because it would damage KHL's reputation seriously. After a couple of failed projects, it will be harder to find new "clients" for the league.
I don't think that the KHL officials or fans care much about this repuation. It would be a reasonable concern if the league never had a team folding before, but as there are examples of failed teams, failing an experiment in China wouldn't matter that much, especially considering that it was never considered an easy expansion. People and executives who like or hate the K aren't going to change their minds due to Chinese teams being or not being successful. Who isn't going to join the K because it didn't work in China? Some German team? Swedish? Japanese? They haven't joined any way. I also see no reason for well-funded teams not to be competitive, Kunlun is anything but a "dead team" as early as in their 1st season. There are some risks, obviously, but the KHL can't lose anything tangible or irreplaceable, while there's everything to gain.

Quote:
If testing the water is OK, then it can be done with other teams from Europe as well; but as far as I see, nobody is looking for adventure anymore. What makes Chinese teams less risky than European ones?
They are financially stable due to being owned by billionaires, they want to join the K and don't have an obnoxious national federations putting sticks in the wheels. Much less risky.

Quote:
As a fan, I'm interested in high quality, competitive hockey and a stable league; not if China will become a hockey country. It's all about preference. I'm sure Swedes wouldn't like it too much if SHL suddenly decided to add a couple of teams from villages and try making them competitive & lucrative.
Well, how do development of the league and development of the game contradict themselves? There's no preference, if China becomes interested in hockey, it will be tremendous for both the league and hockey overall. The "village" is also the largest city in the world. A comparable would be St. Petersburg joining the Liiga.

Quote:
Again, I think the comparisons you guys make are irrational. Football and hockey are very different sports. For football, you simply need nothing. Not sure if this is a common practice in other countries as well but at kindergarten, we used to crush a cola can and use it as a ball to play football. To play football, you sometimes do not even need shoes. Sometimes, not even a ball. It's very easy, convenient and cheap to play, watch and learn. It has no ties to anywhere - from Cameroon to Finland, from Argentina to Japan, people KNOW about football and what it's about. Hockey is not like that. Nowhere near. It's an expensive and complicated sport - to love hockey, you kinda have to embrace some "hockey culture". Except for a few countries, you can't "love" hockey out of blue - you need to work for it, unlike football.
I think that you really overestimate the amount of fans who are or were hockey players on any level themselves. The overwhelming majority of Siberian hockey fans I know never held a hockey stick in their lives, and most of them can't skate either. It's expensive and complicated to learn and play hockey anywhere in the world.

Quote:
When there is no interest in hockey, having a Shanghai & Beijing rivalry means nothing. First, you need to generate interest in hockey and then maybe you can fuel it with rivalry. Kunlun project is enough to test the waters, at least for a couple of years. If it works, then second or even third Chinese team would be great additions. However, until then, I am skeptical.
Quote:
So yeah, unless some serious pushes are made to make Chinese people love hockey, I think they will never get interested in hockey. Moreover, football is way more popular and therefore their "stars" can attract more people. If Messi played in China, the whole world including China would crazy. If Ovechkin played for Kunlun... Why would that make Chinese people interested? They simply don't even know or love hockey.
Quote:
I'm not against Chinese expansion. I'm against teams that have no fans. Financial stability is a very important aspect yet not alone to be a KHL team. But obviously, KHL still wants to experiment. Meh.
But this is exactly what the KHL's doing. They are making a serious push into China instead of just creating a team and waiting until something happens of it by itslef. The timing is great (some years before the Olympics for the new sport to grow some roots). The money risks are non-existent. The fact that the Chinese don't know hockey can be an advantage as much as an advantage: they wouldn't look for stars to attract them, they will be attracted by the game itself. I don't like the teams with no fans as well, but Kunlun is a special case, their attendance have been higher than for some Russian teams recently.

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02-12-2017, 09:24 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
To be fair, we are talking about football. The first time I found out about being able to watch United's games via various streaming programs, they were mostly Chinese. They've airing the EPL there for over a decade and the PRemier League teams off-season friendlies are always sold out. Well all know they're willign to spend absurd amounts on non-Chinese players there but it hasn't shown in any major improvements on the talent level of domestic players. I'm not quite sure how basketball is doing there since Yao Ming's retirement, I do know that they haven't produced any talent even close to him since.
Or they could speed up their teams improvement like the europeans - by poaching talented foreigners & fast-track naturalization.
Highly unlikely tho.

Getting back to hockey, have faith in the Timchenko ,the chairman knows what's he's doing. If he wants to plonk a second team in China, all the power to him - so who are we to argue?
To people moaning about lack of fans - "if you build it, they will come" .... eventually.
Besides, low attendance is least of their problems. The ultimate goal is the 2022 Beijing Games and to ice a 1/2 decent team that doesn't get pummelled in front of home fans (& it's already looking promising with NHL likely to not release their players). Thanks to KHL, Kunlun gives an opportunity to develop local kids in the forthcoming seasons.

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02-13-2017, 09:28 AM
  #563
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Or they could speed up their teams improvement like the europeans - by poaching talented foreigners & fast-track naturalization.
Highly unlikely tho.

Getting back to hockey, have faith in the Timchenko ,the chairman knows what's he's doing. If he wants to plonk a second team in China, all the power to him - so who are we to argue?
To people moaning about lack of fans - "if you build it, they will come" .... eventually.
Besides, low attendance is least of their problems. The ultimate goal is the 2022 Beijing Games and to ice a 1/2 decent team that doesn't get pummelled in front of home fans (& it's already looking promising with NHL likely to not release their players). Thanks to KHL, Kunlun gives an opportunity to develop local kids in the forthcoming seasons.
I think FIFA might be going the same route as the IAAF with that one.

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