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Ric Jackman Improvement...No thanks to Quinn

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Old
10-19-2003, 06:39 PM
  #26
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It means you've failed to stick with the big club. And giving a rookie 31 minutes of ice time over 4 games (about 7 minutes a game) and putting him between two low skilled enforcer players when that rookie is playing very well is setting him up to fail so you can send him to the AHL because he hasn't produced.

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10-20-2003, 06:02 AM
  #27
NoamHemsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
I think Quinn knows more than you do. Jackman has turned into a nice little hockey player when he was expected to do absolutely nothing, and you're criticizing Quinn because "it could have been better". Jackman has improved from last year, give him credit for that and give Quinn credit for recognizing it.

The Leafs are always walking a tightrope wire when it comes to young players. They now have some decent rookies that need to be worked into the lineup but they have to make hard choices. Is it better to give a rookie ice-time and let him develop even if he costs you important games with his rookie mistakes? Do you want to be a better team now or later? It's the question every team that sees itself as a contender has to constantly ask.

I also want to point out that there is nothing wrong with young players spending time in the AHL or on the fourth line in terms of development. Spezza spent last season in the A and it was the best thing for him, and Joe Thorton spent his first season on the 4th line in Boston and accumulated something like 9pts all season. Neither of those players development was hurt.
I would have to agree with you. First of all Quinn was the guy that acquired Jackman, and deserves some credit there. Second of all, Jackman's personal demons have delayed his own development, so Quinn trying to bring him along slowly is a good thing IMO. Why throw a kid, with a histroy of personal problems, straight into the fire (especially in T.O.) when you don't have to.

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10-20-2003, 06:03 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
The only reason Jackman is even in the NHL right now is because Quinn went out and got him. There's no way he would have if gotten a sniff of the Dallas top 6, at least before this year.
they acquired Jackman from Boston and he made the team the year before but suffered an injury.

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10-20-2003, 06:08 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
It means you've failed to stick with the big club. And giving a rookie 31 minutes of ice time over 4 games (about 7 minutes a game) and putting him between two low skilled enforcer players when that rookie is playing very well is setting him up to fail so you can send him to the AHL because he hasn't produced.
Stajan is never going to be a scorer. He will hopefully end up being a great 2way center in the mold of a John Madden or post-Calgary Joe Niewendyk. Let him get experience and play a responsible game. Backchecking and being defensively responsible is just as important to him game as scoring, and his line was suberb defensively and created some chances. Quinn has been shuffling the deck lately to create some offensive spark and to compensate for Mogilny going down. When he shuffles again, I wouldn't be shocked to see Stajan on a more offensive line. Fact of the matter is though, that unlike you, Quinn isn't expeting or counting on Stajan to have a great impact. If he plays 25 games and has a good learning experience the gets some more seasoning in ST.Johns, that will be considered a big success from a 19-20yr old not expected to make the team. He's got 15+ years ahead of him, ease him along instead of throwing him to the wolves right away.

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10-20-2003, 06:42 AM
  #30
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Is Stajan going to be a 40-50 goal a year man? No, but he showed in the pre-season that hes got a good scoring touch and I would be he'll get up around 25-30.

If Stajan just isn't ready and goes down thats fine, as long as been given a fair chance, it happens all the time. But he guy was one of the best fowards they had in pre-season and the first 4 games of the seaseon. Hes leading the team in +/- and has a point (over half the team doesn't). How is rewarded? Withh LESS ice time and a line demotion. That doesn't seem backwards to you? The way hes been playing he should on one of the top lines. Hes also got some speed to him, which the Leafs need, and is defensivly responsible, which the Leafs need. Confidence is also very important to a young player, how much confidence do you think Stajan is getting with reduced ice time and line demotions?

He fits the bill as to what the Leafs need, has been one of their better fowards so far, but the Leafs have a very full roster, the only ways he going to stick with the big club (and thats what he wants to do) is if he produces well and so far Quinn is setting him up to fail at that.

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10-20-2003, 07:20 AM
  #31
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I don't really care if Stajan plays with Toronto or St. John's this year. Whatever the Leafs think is best is fine with me.

But I will say that if Stajan plays in Toronto, they have to put him in a situation where he can succeed. Playing 8 minutes a night on a line with Perrott and Domi is not a good situation for Matt Stajan to be in.

Quinn did the exact same thing with Alyn McCauley all those years and he never did live up to his potential in Toronto. Except of course when he moved up to the 1st line during the playoffs.

I often stick up for Quinn's decisions but I don't agree with his judgement on this matter.

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10-20-2003, 07:38 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
Is Stajan going to be a 40-50 goal a year man? No, but he showed in the pre-season that hes got a good scoring touch and I would be he'll get up around 25-30.
We differ on Stajan's offensive potential. He never scored more than 34 in junior's and I just don't think he has the shot or touch around the net to be more than a 15-20goal man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
If Stajan just isn't ready and goes down thats fine, as long as been given a fair chance, it happens all the time. But he guy was one of the best fowards they had in pre-season and the first 4 games of the seaseon. Hes leading the team in +/- and has a point (over half the team doesn't). How is rewarded? Withh LESS ice time and a line demotion. That doesn't seem backwards to you? The way hes been playing he should on one of the top lines. Hes also got some speed to him, which the Leafs need, and is defensivly responsible, which the Leafs need. Confidence is also very important to a young player, how much confidence do you think Stajan is getting with reduced ice time and line demotions?

He fits the bill as to what the Leafs need, has been one of their better fowards so far, but the Leafs have a very full roster, the only ways he going to stick with the big club (and thats what he wants to do) is if he produces well and so far Quinn is setting him up to fail at that.
Stajan is proving that he's capable of playing a variety of roles which should lead to him staying around longer. The 4th line isn't a death sentence. Antropov started there last year and worked his way up to permanent scoring line status. In the long run, I don't think Stajan is suited to a scoring role. If he stays, I'd figure his pattern would be much like Michal Handzus when he was in St.Louis. He played his first year on the third and 4th lines and came back and gott 22 or 23 goals his second year with increased playing time. Stajan is 19 and it's better to pace him that to throw him into the line of fire, especially when we are so deep up front. That being said, if the offense sputter a little more, I wouldn't be opposed to him ending up higher if the lines get shuffled

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10-20-2003, 07:56 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHolliday
If he stays, I'd figure his pattern would be much like Michal Handzus when he was in St.Louis. He played his first year on the third and 4th lines and came back and gott 22 or 23 goals his second year with increased playing time. Stajan is 19 and it's better to pace him that to throw him into the line of fire, especially when we are so deep up front.
That would be fine if Quinn used his 4th line as a checking line. But the only thing Quinn uses his 4th line for is to warm the bench and pass the water bottle to the other guys.

Look at teams like New Jersey and Detroit, teams that have had success breaking in young players. They only bring in the young players when they know that they are ready to help play an important (yet not crucial) role on the team.

Stajan looks like he's ready to play an important role on this team, and Quinn initially looked like he was going to give Stajan a chance.

But having Stajan play 8 minutes with Domi and Perrott is not helping the team, and it's not doing Stajan any favours either.

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10-20-2003, 08:05 AM
  #34
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DocHolliday - You have to remember that Stajan didn't start on the 4th line or with that little ice time. He started on the 3rd line (with Antropov and Mogilny!!) and played something like 12 minutes that first game. And since then his time as been reduced (why didn't he play at all in the 3rd against the Habs?) and hes been bumped down with Domi and Perrott. Why? He hasn't done anything to deserve that demotion.

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10-20-2003, 09:08 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by cob
they acquired Jackman from Boston and he made the team the year before but suffered an injury.
Yah, outside a bar on a curb - you can see it was never his playing that was at issue.

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10-20-2003, 10:09 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
He started on the 3rd line (with Antropov and Mogilny!!) and played something like 12 minutes that first game. And since then his time as been reduced (why didn't he play at all in the 3rd against the Habs?) and hes been bumped down with Domi and Perrott. Why? He hasn't done anything to deserve that demotion.
Ok, let's take a step back here for a second. Quinn has been playing and working in the NHL for how long now? I ask you is it not possible that Quinn noticed something about Stajan's game that told him he wasn't quite ready for prime time? Something that you wouldnt notice from watching the games on TV or looking at stats?

I would frankly be very surprised if Stajan sticks with big club for the whole year, not because I think he's being sabotaged, but because very few 19yr are ready for that. How many 19yr old forwards get top-6 ice-time for the whole season anymore? Unless you're a Kovalchuk, Nash, or Gaborik the chances are extremely slim. Even slimmer considering the Leafs depth up front.

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10-20-2003, 01:58 PM
  #37
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"Ok, let's take a step back here for a second. Quinn has been playing and working in the NHL for how long now? I ask you is it not possible that Quinn noticed something about Stajan's game that told him he wasn't quite ready for prime time? Something that you wouldnt notice from watching the games on TV or looking at stats"

Well one, the stats don't lie, hes been one of the most effective fowards. Not only fans see it him, but EVERY analysist I've seen on Leafs t.v, Hockey night in Canada, TSN or The Score say the same thing - hes one of the best fowards the Leafs have right now. Do I think its possible that almost every fan, and analysist is wrong and Quinn (not a coach who's known for showing much love to young players) is wring? Of course it is, but not a good chance.

Remeber too that most teams used two loaded lines for their top lines, Quinn roles his lines so being on a top line doesn't put as much pressure or require quite as much as it does on other teams. Like I said if Stajan is given a chance and fails, fine send him down. But so far hes nothing bad, everything well (good +/-, got a point, moves his ass more then some of the other fowards etc....) and isn't being rewarded like he should be. In the pre-season he played better with Sundin the Renberg has so far this year.

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