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The OT Thread: Part 4 | Happy New Year!

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Old
05-30-2016, 02:10 PM
  #1
The Nuge
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The OT Thread: Part 4 | Happy New Year!

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As a runner I just assume everyone is going to try and kill me. That seems to keep me on my toes.
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Very little priority seems to be put on pedestrians, multi trailer users, commuters. I'll cite this. Even in the building of the Century Park LRT line one would figure, being that its an alternate transportation mode, that the line and its right of way/underpasses would also allow a transportation ribbon for cyclists, multi users. Instead its a hodge podge terrible corridor for cyclists that has the bike trail switching at times from the west to east section of the corridor and not an effective commuter option at all. Opportunity missed. Doubt they get it right for the Valley line corridor either. Even though myself and many others have lobbied for parallel multi-user ROW.

These are huge opportunites lost in establishing effective ROW pedestrian/vehicle corridors and once they are completed there is no going back to do it right.

Also, we're moving in the wrong direction. When Whitemud Freeway was established in the West end decades ago several pedestrian bridges were built to traverse it. Yet when the last parts of the south section of Whitemud were completed not one pedestrian overpass has been established east of 111st. Not one.
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This is crazy but there were 10 inches of hail 1 km from my house last night and my yard never got any of it - just lots of rain. I got lucky as I had just planted a new perennial bed and the plants got a lot of water but didn't get crushed by hail.
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Even worse, they built the new square at the Leg, meant specifically for pedestrians, and do a terrible job with East - West flow. Flower gardens at both 108th and 107th basically screw up anybody crossing streets. Then they have thrown two parking lot barriers (ugly and old) to block traffic on either side of the dancing lights. Style over substance design followed by ugly and crappy substance to mess up the style.

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Old
05-30-2016, 10:19 PM
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Wonder how long the the family of the young buy who fell into Harambe's enclosure will be able to keep their name out of the media.

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05-31-2016, 01:13 AM
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Wonder how long the the family of the young buy who fell into Harambe's enclosure will be able to keep their name out of the media.
It's already in the media, was in the media by this morning, and pictures of the parents are already circulating online.

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05-31-2016, 01:38 AM
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Some questions about the incident;

1) The obvious, how does one allow a toddler to jump in a Gorilla pavilion? The kid is like 3-4 yrs old and apparently was insisting on getting in the enclosure. Instead of a parent just grabbing him by the hand they let him go in!?!?!

2)How is it even possible to get in there. Most zoos have double fencing and especially preventing any egress into pens with dangerous animals (most) In Calgary they have double layers of thick plexiglass separating people from Gorillas, one of the fiercest animals in captivity.

3) Zoo is not charging the family? That suggests the zoo already realizes insufficient enclosure, insufficient prevention in keeping people out and already realizes its own potential culpability, as unfortunate as that is. We live in an idiot proofed universe. Zoos have to be tighter than a high security prison to prevent stuff like this these days.

4) Can we have a little bit less anthropomorphic media depictions, movies, childrens shows, childrens books, where animals are depicted as gentle best friends? toddlers get conned into thinking what this kid does and it takes years of parents convincing that animals are actually dangerous. That's how bombarded kids are today with this message of friendly warm cuddly animals. This impacts National parks here as well as cases of kids walking right up to bears and other wild animals increase.


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05-31-2016, 02:46 AM
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The mother that allowed her kid to go into a Gorilla pavilion works at a daycare. I'll leave it at that..

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05-31-2016, 08:04 AM
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I think regardless of the parenting there is no way that a 3-4 year old should be able to get into an enclosure with any animal.

I don't know what the parents excuse was, but whether the parent wasn't paying attention for 3 seconds or 10 minutes there is no way a kid should be able to get into an enclosure. Especially one that holds a gorilla.

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05-31-2016, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Philly85 View Post
It's already in the media, was in the media by this morning, and pictures of the parents are already circulating online.
Yeah I was surprised they managed to keep it out as long as they did. The media these days is just awful.
Feel sorry for the child and the inevitable bullying etc he is going to be on the receiving end of for his foreseeable future.
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1) The obvious, how does one allow a toddler to jump in a Gorilla pavilion? The kid is like 3-4 yrs old and apparently was insisting on getting in the enclosure. Instead of a parent just grabbing him by the hand they let him go in!?!?!
Most people think of zoos as safe, fun, family places, and maybe for the most part they are. But for any parent to let a small child anywhere near the edge of a pit style enclosure, no matter if there is a 'fence' or not, is just inexcusable.

Obviously these parents are going to take a lot of heat. It was already over the top before anyone knew their names. It will just get mental now. Like the dentist that shot Cecil who literally had to go into hiding. As over the top as it is, I find it difficult to work up much sympathy for a parent who can't hold their child's hand while standing right next to the gorilla moat. They can take their lumps and hopefully learn something for better future parenting.
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Zoo is not charging the family? That suggests the zoo already realizes insufficient enclosure, insufficient prevention in keeping people out and already realizes its own potential culpability, as unfortunate as that is.
Watch the family sue the zoo. And win.
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We live in an idiot proofed universe. Zoos have to be tighter than a high security prison to prevent stuff like this these days.
Some people think we live in an idiot proof world, but if you look at the paper every day you will see many stories like this one that prove we do not.

I feel for the zoo staff. Thirty odd years that enclosure has been open and no incidents. They had no reason to suspect one would happen. Yet given the result they have to accept the responsibility and their share of the blame. They can't say their facility is safe if a four year old breached the defenses. Simple as that.

Finally, all the twitter warriors that are having a field day with this (much like they did with the infamous orca Tilikum, and Cecil the lion) need to realize that as 'brokenhearted' as they are over the death of Harambe, the staff of the zoo who raised and cared for him every day and then had to give the order to shoot him, are infinitely more gutted.

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05-31-2016, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Yeah I was surprised they managed to keep it out as long as they did. The media these days is just awful.
Feel sorry for the child and the inevitable bullying etc he is going to be on the receiving end of for his foreseeable future.
I feel sorry for a kid going home to live his life with parents that didn't stop their kid from going into a gorilla enclosure. Indeed the kid was stating I want to go in, I wanta go in and from reports made multiple attempts to get in before doing so. But instead the parents were distracted by the sister who was yelling and upset that the family was on their way to leaving the zoo. What this suggests is parents with multiple kids concurrently acting out and being ineffectual with dealing with any of it.

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Most people think of zoos as safe, fun, family places, and maybe for the most part they are. But for any parent to let a small child anywhere near the edge of a pit style enclosure, no matter if there is a 'fence' or not, is just inexcusable.
Agreed.
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Obviously these parents are going to take a lot of heat. It was already over the top before anyone knew their names. It will just get mental now
. ftr the mother herself went online immediately after, identified herself, the family, made posts on multiple social media platforms some of which she subsequently deleted. But this was a version of setting fire to one's self online. She outed herself. One disturbing commentary she offered was that god was watching over the child the whole time and that god protected her child. That elicited a lot of the "its a parents job to protect their children" backlash. Also comments online like "no broken bones or anything, he's all fine" seemed to diminish what had occurred. I don't know the mom gets it even now.


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Like the dentist that shot Cecil who literally had to go into hiding. As over the top as it is, I find it difficult to work up much sympathy for a parent who can't hold their child's hand while standing right next to the gorilla moat. They can take their lumps and hopefully learn something for better future parenting.
Hand holding, literally, and figuratively seems to be a dying preventative strategy.


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Watch the family sue the zoo. And win.
Some people think we live in an idiot proof world, but if you look at the paper every day you will see many stories like this one that prove we do not.
Wouldn't surprise me.

Quote:
I feel for the zoo staff. Thirty odd years that enclosure has been open and no incidents. They had no reason to suspect one would happen. Yet given the result they have to accept the responsibility and their share of the blame. They can't say their facility is safe if a four year old breached the defenses. Simple as that.
Zoo staff found themselves in an untenable horrific situation. They responded with surprising competence to what had to be the worst possible unexpected situation. The zoo had had no incident like this (from reports) in 40yrs.

Quote:
Finally, all the twitter warriors that are having a field day with this (much like they did with the infamous orca Tilikum, and Cecil the lion) need to realize that as 'brokenhearted' as they are over the death of Harambe, the staff of the zoo who raised and cared for him every day and then had to give the order to shoot him, are infinitely more gutted.
A woman with a placard inciting a protest at the zoo gates was shouting. "The animals are in cages, we don't get to shoot the animals that are already in cages" I think she was trying to make some point. I'm unsure what it was.. The point apparently was for lots of people to be all angry and second guess the zoo and boycott it.

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05-31-2016, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
I think regardless of the parenting there is no way that a 3-4 year old should be able to get into an enclosure with any animal.

I don't know what the parents excuse was, but whether the parent wasn't paying attention for 3 seconds or 10 minutes there is no way a kid should be able to get into an enclosure. Especially one that holds a gorilla.
There should be no way a parent ever does lots of things, but it happens. I have no doubt that family will be much more vigilant about things like this down the road. Good learning experience and thankfully didn't end in the serious injury or death of their child. Lots of far lesser profile mistakes by parents end up with drowned kids, kids who have been backed over by vehicles, kids who almost get decapitated when they drive their bike/trike/quad through a barb-wire fence. The list goes on and on.

What's unfortunate is that this family's mistake has the added "bonus" of being attached to a highly public place where she can be attacked by parenting warriors and animal rights activists all at the same time, on top of their own stress with trying to deal with the mistake they made. Lucky them.

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05-31-2016, 01:03 PM
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I love how this gets reduced to a parenting "mistake"

Oh, darn, Joe, we made a mistake, a booboo, we let the 4yr old get into a gorilla enclosure...

my lord

Reportedly in 40yrs the zoo had not had this type of instance.


Again, from bystander reports the child had repeatedly been wanting to get into the enclosure and verbalized that and made repeated attempts to get in. Every bystander commenting has made mention of that. The parents though, are somehow instead attending to the sister who is apparently acting out. Neither is noting the 4 yr old child trying to get into the enclosure. Theres two parents here. In a crowded place you've got a 4yr old, and most parents know enough to keep that age kid in sight at all times because its a crowded place and kids can wander and get lost quick.

Next, parents of a child that is repeatedly trying to climb into a gorilla pavilion, will likely have experienced unexpected and insistent behavior from this child before. I would virtually guarantee. This is not something most children do. This would be on the outlier curve of impulsivity X loaded with ADHD. I doubt this outlier behavior occurred in isolation with no previous unusual behaviors.

Thousands of kids had been in the zoo before and none of them apparently did what this kid did. I would suspect the parents of such a 4yr old child might know something about their child by that point and be hand holding or attending carefully. You know, being parents.

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05-31-2016, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I love how this gets reduced to a parenting "mistake"

Oh, darn, Joe, we made a mistake, a booboo, we let the 4yr old get into a gorilla enclosure...

my lord

Reportedly in 40yrs the zoo had not had this type of instance.


Again, from bystander reports the child had repeatedly been wanting to get into the enclosure and verbalized that and made repeated attempts to get in. Every bystander commenting has made mention of that. The parents though, are somehow instead attending to the sister who is apparently acting out. Neither is noting the 4 yr old child trying to get into the enclosure. Theres two parents here. In a crowded place you've got a 4yr old, and most parents know enough to keep that age kid in sight at all times because its a crowded place and kids can wander and get lost quick.

Next, parents of a child that is repeatedly trying to climb into a gorilla pavilion, will likely have experienced unexpected and insistent behavior from this child before. I would virtually guarantee. This is not something most children do. This would be on the outlier curve of impulsivity X loaded with ADHD. I doubt this outlier behavior occurred in isolation with no previous unusual behaviors.

Thousands of kids had been in the zoo before and none of them apparently did what this kid did. I would suspect the parents of such a 4yr old child might know something about their child by that point and be hand holding or attending carefully. You know, being parents.
It was a mistake. It was a horrible mistake and there is certainly some degree of negligence involved, but it was still a mistake. It had some pretty tragic consequences (although thankfully not as tragic as they very easily could have been).


Honestly I think there is culpability on everyones part. The parents needed to be doing a better job of ensuring the safety of their child. The zoo needs to have an enclosure that a 4 year old can't just climb/fall into. And if it was as crowded and had as many bystanders as you're suggesting, someone should have stopped the kid once they realized what he was doing.

Regarding the death of the gorilla. While it really sucks, it doesn't seem like there was an alternative. I feel bad for the animal and I feel bad for the people who worked with it. But the zoos explanation that a tranquilizer could have caused aggression first seems sound.

I donno. Instead of outrage at anything, I just kind of think it's a super ****** situation and feel pretty bad for everyone involved. The kid, the parents, the zoo+employees, the gorilla, the people who saw it all happen probably pretty upsetting and traumatic for everyone.

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05-31-2016, 01:47 PM
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I donno. Instead of outrage at anything, I just kind of think it's a super ****** situation and feel pretty bad for everyone involved. The kid, the parents, the zoo+employees, the gorilla, the people who saw it all happen probably pretty upsetting and traumatic for everyone.
Exactly this. I don't feel the need to rake anyone over the coals. It sucks. By tomorrow no one will give a crap again anyways.

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05-31-2016, 03:28 PM
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It shakes things up for everyone, almost unnecessarily but not entirely, hopefully for the better. The mother is apparently a kindergarten or play school employee.

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05-31-2016, 05:21 PM
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Part of the public hysteria involved with the dead gorilla, is individuals mistaking the severity of the death in relation to the worldwide population. I've had this conversation now with a couple people who keep saying the worldwide population is in the hundreds, which is false. Mountain gorilla populations are in the 800's yes, and that's startlingly low.

Harambe is not a mountain gorilla, he is (was) a western lowland gorilla which number, depending on who you ask, up to 100,000 worldwide (though I've seen estimates up to 175,000.)

They're still facing steady population decline, and I'll state that all life in the case of gorilla populations should be seen as equal...but the death is a lot less devastating to a genetic population of 100,000 than 800.

tldr version...it's really sad the gorilla died, but it's a lot less traumatic to the gorilla population than some think.

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05-31-2016, 07:24 PM
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It was a mistake. It was a horrible mistake and there is certainly some degree of negligence involved, but it was still a mistake. It had some pretty tragic consequences (although thankfully not as tragic as they very easily could have been).


Honestly I think there is culpability on everyones part. The parents needed to be doing a better job of ensuring the safety of their child. The zoo needs to have an enclosure that a 4 year old can't just climb/fall into. And if it was as crowded and had as many bystanders as you're suggesting, someone should have stopped the kid once they realized what he was doing.

Regarding the death of the gorilla. While it really sucks, it doesn't seem like there was an alternative. I feel bad for the animal and I feel bad for the people who worked with it. But the zoos explanation that a tranquilizer could have caused aggression first seems sound.

I donno. Instead of outrage at anything, I just kind of think it's a super ****** situation and feel pretty bad for everyone involved. The kid, the parents, the zoo+employees, the gorilla, the people who saw it all happen probably pretty upsetting and traumatic for everyone.
I don't quite get how the gorilla dying is any less tragic than the kid dying. If he'd been killed falling into the enclosure, and they didn't have to put down the gorilla would that have been more of a tragedy? It's unfortunate that they only one who wasn't culpable in this situation is the one that had his life ended.

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05-31-2016, 08:13 PM
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I don't quite get how the gorilla dying is any less tragic than the kid dying. If he'd been killed falling into the enclosure, and they didn't have to put down the gorilla would that have been more of a tragedy? It's unfortunate that they only one who wasn't culpable in this situation is the one that had his life ended.
The life of a human being and the life of any animal are not equal to most people. If the zoo had shot the child and not the gorilla this would have been an entirely different situation don't you think?

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05-31-2016, 09:06 PM
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The life of a human being and the life of any animal are not equal to most people. If the zoo had shot the child and not the gorilla this would have been an entirely different situation don't you think?
Oh?


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05-31-2016, 10:05 PM
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Many internet points for you sir.

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06-01-2016, 02:10 AM
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I don't quite get how the gorilla dying is any less tragic than the kid dying. If he'd been killed falling into the enclosure, and they didn't have to put down the gorilla would that have been more of a tragedy? It's unfortunate that they only one who wasn't culpable in this situation is the one that had his life ended.
Not interested in getting into any sort of debate about value of human life vs gorilla life. So I won't. I'll just say that there very easily could have been a scenario where both gorilla and child are killed in this event.

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06-01-2016, 11:05 AM
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Oh?

This would of been the best way

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06-01-2016, 04:12 PM
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buddy still had a clean shot at the bug lol

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06-01-2016, 11:50 PM
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I have only one question

How the Hell did Mark Cuban get the name City of Champions incorporated and why the hell didn't the city of Edmonton do that back in the 80's could have made a mint!

http://www.espn.co.uk/nba/playoffs/2...-sharks-titles

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06-02-2016, 11:48 AM
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I have only one question

How the Hell did Mark Cuban get the name City of Champions incorporated and why the hell didn't the city of Edmonton do that back in the 80's could have made a mint!

http://www.espn.co.uk/nba/playoffs/2...-sharks-titles
simple
Cuban smart, city of Edmonton dumb.

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06-02-2016, 04:25 PM
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Do you mean trademarked? I haven't read the story.

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06-02-2016, 04:34 PM
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Our present city council don't want the name, don't care about the name, could give a fig about the name.

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