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Old
03-13-2017, 01:46 AM
  #51
RainierBeat
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I don't think a team has EVER given up a 1st to an expansion team to keep a player. You make a deal for lesser pieces and lower picks. If LV insists on the 1st, plus everything else you've offered, you let them take who they want and be done with it. Jarnkrok isn't worth three pieces. Very few are.

Jarnkrok is also not the long term answer at 2C. He is averaging around .40 PPG and over his career he is around .35 PPG. Those are good 3C numbers and that's where he needs to be slotted.

The love affair some have with Krok around here is mind boggling. He's a good player but is a guy that is replaceable. I get how some are down on Wilson but at the end of the day, you always keep a bigger bodied player who can control the puck over a smaller guy who is average offensively. While Krok's D is good, it's not Selke material. If he had the ability to shut down opposing teams best forward on a nightly basis like a Kesler or Bergeron does, then sure, you think about keeping him.

I'll give the best reason for keeping Wilson before Krok too, the pass he made to Neal for the GWG yesterday. How many times does Wilson make a great pass like during a game? More often than not guys don't finish the play. He's a great playmaker that can go in to corners and control puck possession for us. That to me is invaluable and before some say, he gets paid way too much for what he produces, that may be true but certain things you don't measure on points alone. He creates chances. He allows us to keep the puck. He's hard to knock off the puck and he's a proven playoff player. Krok has not done it in the playoffs. Then some will say, well, he needs to do that in the regular season too. Fair enough but if I have a guy that is a .5 PPG during the regular season and around 1 PPG during the playoffs or a guy who is at .4 PPP during the regular season and does nothing in the playoffs, who do you think I want on my team?
Except how many forwards are truly like Kesler or Bergeron defensively? Don't get me wrong, I'd take Fisher over Jarnkrok defensively on our team (Even though Fisher has lost a huge step), and in the Central alone, many players like the Hawks defensive trio (Kruger, Toews, Hossa), Steen, Berglund, Statsny, Schwartz, Finnesota, etc. are far superior defensively than Jarnkrok. Still Jarnkrok is still a very good defensive asset, he's not elite yes. But we can't be like Chicago, Anaheim, Boston, LA, St. Louis, San Jose, etc. in being spoiled with elite defensive 2-way forwards.

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Old
03-13-2017, 05:07 AM
  #52
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Glenn, take it into account how has Jarnkrok produced SINCE slotted into #2C. Bet those numbers are a lot closer to a norm of 2C's.

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Old
03-13-2017, 05:30 AM
  #53
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Our centers in scoring when you take out the players who are listed as centers but don't play there:

Joey 14th
Fisher 45th
Jarny 69th
Ribeiro 76th (still don't get it why they send him down, the guy was producing still on a 50p/season rate.)

That is a really nice center core and now with PA we have a lot of depth on wings so our 4th line could've been a productive one, too.

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03-13-2017, 06:04 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Scoresberg View Post
Our centers in scoring when you take out the players who are listed as centers but don't play there:

Joey 14th
Fisher 45th
Jarny 69th
Ribeiro 76th (still don't get it why they send him down, the guy was producing still on a 50p/season rate.)

That is a really nice center core and now with PA we have a lot of depth on wings so our 4th line could've been a productive one, too.
Ribs got sent down because his defense was horrid, face offs were even worse, and his effort and attitude were worse than all of those. Not only did we think he didn't deserve a spot, when given the opportunity no one else in the league did either. That should tell you something.

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03-13-2017, 07:48 AM
  #55
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Riberio has been a headcase most of the time he has been in the league. His scoresheet value could not overcome his behavior.

Vegas if they are smart will select 20 players to put on there roster and pick up 2 or 3 from free agency. They will take some deals from a select number of teams Im thinking 7 of them where they accept prospects or picks for there farm. Teams that will benefit from this will be mixed a few teams with highend players they want to keep will throw a pick and a prospect to the pool. Teams like the Preds at best would get off with a prospect or a pick. Jarnkrok, Wilson or Smith are not worth much more to Vegas and the priority will fall to Hook or Wilson hook for his bottom 6 ability or Wilson or his limited performance and his cap to get them to the floor. Smith has pretty much zero value to them his contract is too long to make sense and his inability to score goals which has dropped each of the last three years is not appealing. Now I would like nothing more than to see Smith gone but realistically Without huge overpayment I do not see any option for that happening. Most likely Vegas will pick hook unless Poile can work a deal where they take Faila or Kamnev I doubt he would trade Girard or Fabbro's rights due to the mess the defense is in currently. So one of those three will be the loss. Vegas will target picks they take to be 1st rounders and right now any of those three are not worth a 1st.

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03-13-2017, 09:11 AM
  #56
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I hear you, but Ribs has been bad defensively and the at the dot the whole time being here. Yes, he's one-dimensional but he isn't a threat in the d-zone much more like anyone else and I'm willing to cut him some slack if he produces the 40 assists a year like he has. I doubt Ribs has ever in his career been much more different than he has in Nashville.

Our 4th line has been a real danger in our own zone, where it has spent 90% of the ice-time, but if we had Ribs, at least we could try to swap that to a scoring line. Like I said, our wing depth is good and we would have been able to surround Ribs with scoring wingers. We could've put together 4 scoring lines instead of 3 and one line who's constantly hemmed in our own zone.

W/o Ribs we are still able to put together a solid 4th line, Lavy just can't scratch Fiala unless he's trying to ruin his development. He has to be playing. Now that Watson is playing really well and fits in the 4th line like a glove and Salo coming back, I'm hoping Lavy realizes this and runs with it.

Also waiting for Lavy to realize what kind of threat Weber is for our defense. Swap him with Irwin and we're good to go on D.

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03-13-2017, 12:52 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Scoresberg View Post
I hear you, but Ribs has been bad defensively and the at the dot the whole time being here. Yes, he's one-dimensional but he isn't a threat in the d-zone much more like anyone else and I'm willing to cut him some slack if he produces the 40 assists a year like he has. I doubt Ribs has ever in his career been much more different than he has in Nashville.

Our 4th line has been a real danger in our own zone, where it has spent 90% of the ice-time, but if we had Ribs, at least we could try to swap that to a scoring line. Like I said, our wing depth is good and we would have been able to surround Ribs with scoring wingers. We could've put together 4 scoring lines instead of 3 and one line who's constantly hemmed in our own zone.

W/o Ribs we are still able to put together a solid 4th line, Lavy just can't scratch Fiala unless he's trying to ruin his development. He has to be playing. Now that Watson is playing really well and fits in the 4th line like a glove and Salo coming back, I'm hoping Lavy realizes this and runs with it.

Also waiting for Lavy to realize what kind of threat Weber is for our defense. Swap him with Irwin and we're good to go on D.
There is a lot I agree with here. I see the reasoning that Poile had bringing Fiddler back but hes not the same player he was age has got him. Defensively he is still ok but that is just because of his age and experience he is quite a bit slower than he was in his prime so he can not make the plays he did 5 years ago. The thing is hes ok as a 4th liner and there is not another center in the mix that would be an improvement so it is senseless for people to criticize Fiddler. Another bif reason the 4th has been bad in there own zone has been Watson but he recieves a pass because he can punch in a goal now and them by most.

I do disagree that Lavi could run 4 scoring lines the reality is this team can ice 1 top six line and 1 bottom 6 line Fish has produced a decent number of goals for a 2C and Hook has for the 3C but Hooks asst's are weak. The remainder of wings for the bottom 9 have 9 goals or less those are not numbers that any legit playoff team has. Neal FF9 and Arviddson Provide 1 wing for that 2nd line but Poiles mistake with Faila for the 2nd line continues to haunt him. With the addition of Parentaeu you have Wilson, Smith and Faila for 3rd line wings the odd man out again is the kid. He has no reason playing on the 4th line and should be sent down unless there is an injury.

I was not a fan of the Y. Weber signing in the first place hes good at some things but hockey is not one of them. Im not happy with Irwin but im not disappointed in him overall either hes a 3rd pair guy nothing more. As much time as Salomaki has missed it is doubtful he will be very good the remainder of the year. A big win in San Jose for sure but it would not be a surprise if the team loses tonight to the Jets there is just no way to tell what team shows up.

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Old
03-13-2017, 01:05 PM
  #58
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And Irwin is a great 3rd pair guy, and that's all he's asked to be rn.

Yes, FF, Arvy and Neal have provided top-6 numbers this year. Smith and Fiala (points-wise) have been dissappointments. Fiala has been good but hasn't been able to produce, you're right there.

Wilson has produced (especially lately) like a top-6 LW. He is 49th in points in LW, he should be in top-60 and he is.

Fisher has produced well the whole season, Ribs was on pace for 50 points (2C production) and Jarny has produced well since brought up from the 4th line. You can't disagree there.

PA has produced in every team he's played and should get going here, too. Too early to tell, though.

The problem with this offense has been consistency, Smith and Fiala. They've found consistency lately and I'm hoping it stops to come at the expense of defense. Cause that's when you'll start to lose games.

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03-13-2017, 01:19 PM
  #59
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Byrd, we won't lose fiala or kamenev in expansion. They're exempt. I also wouldn't move them just to keep Hook.

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03-13-2017, 04:03 PM
  #60
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I know it's McPhee we're talking about here, but I can't see any scenario where Vegas takes Smith. I kind of doubt he'll be doing Poile any favors after getting burned by Erat.

I think expansion will be pretty straight forward for us. We'll lose Wilson or Jarnkrok. They have similar value so it doesn't make sense to give up assets to nudge Vegas one way.

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03-13-2017, 04:10 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
I know it's McPhee we're talking about here, but I can't see any scenario where Vegas takes Smith. I kind of doubt he'll be doing Poile any favors after getting burned by Erat.

I think expansion will be pretty straight forward for us. We'll lose Wilson or Jarnkrok. They have similar value so it doesn't make sense to give up assets to nudge Vegas one way.
Unless they take on a bunch of Pronger-type contracts, it's more likely Vegas is closer to the floor than the ceiling. Jarnkrok is definitely appealing due to contract and versatility, but I don't think taking Smith is a huge stretch. He had multiple 20 goal seasons and visually seems to create a lot of chances. A GM like McPhee may well risk that this is just a down year production-wise.

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03-13-2017, 04:33 PM
  #62
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If the price isn't insane, you pay them to take Smith, without a doubt. Then you use that 4 million in cap space to sign or trade for a more consistent forward.

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03-13-2017, 04:40 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
I know it's McPhee we're talking about here, but I can't see any scenario where Vegas takes Smith. I kind of doubt he'll be doing Poile any favors after getting burned by Erat.
It all depends on what McPhee thinks of Smith. If he still feels he can be a say 40 point player and can get additional prospects/picks from Poile to take him, then he'll probably do that. Las Vegas is still in building mode after all.

Now if he thinks he's a 20 point player, there's not a chance McPhee would take him and the price to get McPhee to take him is something Poile shouldn't do.

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03-13-2017, 08:26 PM
  #64
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I don't see any scenario where LV takes Wilson or Smith over Hook, absent payment. Value for the goods delivered -plus upside potential and downside risk- make it not close. You would have to believe Wilson has potential to bloom into a consistent top notch player to take the extra contract and while plenty of glimpses suggest that he does, there is a substantial body of work that says he doesn't. In particular, I think you would bet on Wilson being able to shine with more talented finishers around him-- LV will not have that.

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03-14-2017, 08:46 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Mortiest Morty View Post
If the price isn't insane, you pay them to take Smith, without a doubt. Then you use that 4 million in cap space to sign or trade for a more consistent forward.
What consistent 20+ goal scorer is available at that price?

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03-14-2017, 10:36 AM
  #66
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Just curious for both handedness balance, and more or less Jarnkrok is gone to expansion, what realistically from the Flames do you want for Jarnkrok? I'd like to try Jarnkrok as our top line RW with Gaudreau and Monahan.

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03-14-2017, 12:01 PM
  #67
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Byrd, we won't lose fiala or kamenev in expansion. They're exempt. I also wouldn't move them just to keep Hook.
I know they are exempt what I refer to is paying Vegas to take Smiths contract could well include one of Faila or Kamenev. They will make a few deals to take on cap and to stock picks and prospects. They are not going to pick 30 roster players. Most likely they will snag 20 roster players and make a bid to fill the roster thru F/A so some teams will get to keep there roster players. When it comes to there selection form the Preds Jarnkrok is the most appealing of those exposed and will be there selection unless they have better options for the bottom 6. If that is the case they would probably take a pick if poile negotiates Smith to Vegas he will have to add one of Kamenev or Faila. They are not going to take his term without an additional piece.

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03-14-2017, 12:20 PM
  #68
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What consistent 20+ goal scorer is available at that price?
Maybe none. What does that have to do with the Craig Smith of the past two seasons? Sure, a hot streak at the very end of the year last year got him to 20 goals, but he played incredibly easy minutes all year, lots of guys could put up 20 in those circumstances. The guy has gotten worse both statistically and on the ice in general since his 2nd full season in the NHL.

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03-14-2017, 12:32 PM
  #69
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I know they are exempt what I refer to is paying Vegas to take Smiths contract could well include one of Faila or Kamenev. They will make a few deals to take on cap and to stock picks and prospects. They are not going to pick 30 roster players. Most likely they will snag 20 roster players and make a bid to fill the roster thru F/A so some teams will get to keep there roster players. When it comes to there selection form the Preds Jarnkrok is the most appealing of those exposed and will be there selection unless they have better options for the bottom 6. If that is the case they would probably take a pick if poile negotiates Smith to Vegas he will have to add one of Kamenev or Faila. They are not going to take his term without an additional piece.
It'd be incredibly dumb to give Vegas Fiala or Kamenev to pick Smith. I'd give Aberg and one of Mazanec/Kirkland/low pick or a 2nd straight up, but I'd rather keep the 2nd to be honest. If they don't take it offer the same package to pick Wilson, and if they don't take it then we deal with losing Jarnkrok.

Poile isn't stupid enough to hand over one of our best young players, even though you don't like Fiala, Byrd. In reality we're debating between three bottom six forwards, if we wouldn't get back a top prospect for Jarnkrok/Wilson/Smith than we shouldn't give up a top prospect to Vegas just to take one back.

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03-14-2017, 12:35 PM
  #70
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Maybe none. What does that have to do with the Craig Smith of the past two seasons? Sure, a hot streak at the very end of the year last year got him to 20 goals, but he played incredibly easy minutes all year, lots of guys could put up 20 in those circumstances. The guy has gotten worse both statistically and on the ice in general since his 2nd full season in the NHL.
This may be the first time I have 100% agreed with you. You get it on Smith. Hell the guy could go on a streak right now and sneek above 20 goals this year but it makes him no more valuable. He has not produced in so many games over the season he has been an anchor. He is paid to produce and simply has not basically since he signed the new contract but your correct the one year has cost the team 20 mil in cap over 5 years not a smart move. And the same can be said of Wilson.

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03-14-2017, 12:51 PM
  #71
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It'd be incredibly dumb to give Vegas Fiala or Kamenev to pick Smith. I'd give Aberg and one of Mazanec/Kirkland/low pick or a 2nd straight up, but I'd rather keep the 2nd to be honest. If they don't take it offer the same package to pick Wilson, and if they don't take it then we deal with losing Jarnkrok.

Poile isn't stupid enough to hand over one of our best young players, even though you don't like Fiala, Byrd. In reality we're debating between three bottom six forwards, if we wouldn't get back a top prospect for Jarnkrok/Wilson/Smith than we shouldn't give up a top prospect to Vegas just to take one back.
I do not recall I have ever said I do not like Faila, I may have said there are some things about him I do not like his immature antics for one. But the kid could well turn out to be a solid NHL player if he can have some patience. He has no place on this team right now Parenteau has taken the last wing spot in the top 9 and there is no sense playing Faila on the 4th. Why his game has not fully transferred to producing in a top 6 role is the question. Sure he was demoted from the top 6, that was done because he was not producing and a player with his skill set should light the lamp on the 3rd line more often than he did. he is now a depth player unless Poile sends him down to play. Im not sure what his future is for next season with Poile missing centers if he can not find one or two in the off season and has to use Kamenev the team will remain overloaded with youth. Sure the youth will mature at some point. I thought at the time it was not a smart thing for Poile to throw in Franson to move Lombardi's contract either but thats what it took. If Poile needs the cap from Smith and I think he will to fix the top 6 and center situation he will have to do something. be it at the expansion draft or later.

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03-15-2017, 09:54 AM
  #72
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This may be the first time I have 100% agreed with you. You get it on Smith. Hell the guy could go on a streak right now and sneek above 20 goals this year but it makes him no more valuable. He has not produced in so many games over the season he has been an anchor. He is paid to produce and simply has not basically since he signed the new contract but your correct the one year has cost the team 20 mil in cap over 5 years not a smart move. And the same can be said of Wilson.
And to think some Preds fans thought Calgary had to add to Backlund to get Smith...

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03-15-2017, 11:02 AM
  #73
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And to think some Preds fans thought Calgary had to add to Backlund to get Smith...
There are still some Smith Homers out there but at this point they have no justification to to defend the guy. I is impossible to make a case to pay him 4 million per for what he has brought to the team all year and really other than a two week span last year as well. And if by some chance he rebounds next season to have 20 goals big damn deal its a poor contract. Compared Smith to Mason Raymond before Poile gave him this contract and the similarities still remain. A guy that can not finish to save his ass. But he will always have his supporters here.

Rainer why in the world would you want him for your team? For that matter what team would accept this contract without recieving additional pieces?

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03-15-2017, 11:11 AM
  #74
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There are still some Smith Homers out there but at this point they have no justification to to defend the guy. I is impossible to make a case to pay him 4 million per for what he has brought to the team all year and really other than a two week span last year as well. And if by some chance he rebounds next season to have 20 goals big damn deal its a poor contract. Compared Smith to Mason Raymond before Poile gave him this contract and the similarities still remain. A guy that can not finish to save his ass. But he will always have his supporters here.

Rainer why in the world would you want him for your team? For that matter what team would accept this contract without recieving additional pieces?
If Smith was traded for Brouwer straight up I'd take him. Yes Brouwer is more physical and better defensively, but he is a liability everywhere else, where Smith is more skilled to fit in the top 6, but for Backlund? Yeah no you have to add like Arvidsson to get Backlund for Smith lol (Which Nashville wouldn't do). I agree Smith is not a good player, but he'd instantly be the Flames best RHS player lol (Which shows how sad our RHS depth is). Smith is like Raymond I agree. But unlike Raymond, Smith is given the most Ozone starts in the league behind only Ribeiro. Ribeiro is no longer in the NHL, so in that sense Smith has the most Ozone starts in the league and still can't produce... Smith isn't a complete liability unlike Raymond if he isn't producing, but he's still below average defensively and physically.

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03-15-2017, 11:31 AM
  #75
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If Smith was traded for Brouwer straight up I'd take him. Yes Brouwer is more physical and better defensively, but he is a liability everywhere else, where Smith is more skilled to fit in the top 6, but for Backlund? Yeah no you have to add like Arvidsson to get Backlund for Smith lol (Which Nashville wouldn't do). I agree Smith is not a good player, but he'd instantly be the Flames best RHS player lol (Which shows how sad our RHS depth is). Smith is like Raymond I agree. But unlike Raymond, Smith is given the most Ozone starts in the league behind only Ribeiro. Ribeiro is no longer in the NHL, so in that sense Smith has the most Ozone starts in the league and still can't produce... Smith isn't a complete liability unlike Raymond if he isn't producing, but he's still below average defensively and physically.
Agreed but being a liability at 1.5 mil per and 4 mil per is different or at least in my mind it is. If you watch Smith close his skating is one thing that holds him back from being any kind of defensive forward. He has good to great straight line speed but he can not skate backwards to save his life. Laterally he is not much better this is why you rarely see him on the PK. Which is really sad because he has the mindset to give his all and is a good fore checker and along the boards. But the things he does well are not worth 4 mil per.

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