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Once again, Russian "emigres" drafted in late rounds

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06-25-2016, 07:14 PM
  #1
Yakushev72
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Once again, Russian "emigres" drafted in late rounds

Remember when Vitaly Abramov and Dmitry Sokolov were the hot prospects coming out of Russia? So they emigrated to the CHL to lock down the gold and fortune that would surely be coming their way. Today, their prospects were dealt a shuddering jolt when Abramov was drafted in the 3rd round of the NHL Draft, and Sokolov in the 7th round near the bottom of the sheet, far below prospects such as Vladimir Bobylev and Mikhail Maltsev.

Its not impossible for a 3rd round draft pick to eventually wind up in the NHL, but there are so many players ahead of them that the club has more money invested in that it doesn't happen all that often. As a small player in a small rink surrounded by giants and monsters, Abramov will really have to have remarkable success in junior hockey and the AHL to put himself in line for an NHL roster spot. As a 7th rounder, Sokolov has virtually no chance at all. And yet a whole new boat full of the best prospects will once sail off to the CHL with no prospects at all of a better outcome.

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06-25-2016, 09:20 PM
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I share your concern about Russians leaving their home country for major junior, however staying home would not have helped either of these guys' draft stock. Sokolov fell in the draft because of weight and shoulder issues. Abramov is perceived as too small.

If these guys had stayed at home they would have been on the meldonium team. Sokolov could have been passed up entirely.

Perceptions aside, Abramov had a very nice season. He is facing the same scouting biases as Johnny Gaudreau, and I think he will overcome them.

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06-26-2016, 07:58 AM
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Alessandro Seren Rosso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
I share your concern about Russians leaving their home country for major junior, however staying home would not have helped either of these guys' draft stock.
Who cares. Panarin was undrafted.

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06-26-2016, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Who cares. Panarin was undrafted.
Kids care and that's why a lot of them are running away.

On the topic, the first impression is that Russian CHL-ers were declared 'out-of-fashion'.

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06-26-2016, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Caser View Post
Kids care and that's why a lot of them are running away.

On the topic, the first impression is that Russian CHL-ers were declared 'out-of-fashion'.
North Americans like stats. Maybe the GMs and scouts have looked up the ratio of russian prospects out of the CHL meeting expectations in the NHL.

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06-26-2016, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
North Americans like stats. Maybe the GMs and scouts have looked up the ratio of russian prospects out of the CHL meeting expectations in the NHL.
I'd say that the first thing is the overscouting (scouts can be pretty easily scared of any possible issue they see and, obviously, the more you see a player the more you see some issues in him). Another thing is that if you have doubts, you don't need to spend the pick on CHL-er, as you can always invite an undrafted player to the camp, which is not working with European guys, you need to spend picks for them.

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06-26-2016, 04:30 PM
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And yes, speaking about the numbers: 10 players drafted played in MHL this season is pretty comparable to 14 drafted out of QMJHL and the Q is a pretty popular league among Russians.

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06-26-2016, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
I share your concern about Russians leaving their home country for major junior, however staying home would not have helped either of these guys' draft stock. Sokolov fell in the draft because of weight and shoulder issues. Abramov is perceived as too small.

If these guys had stayed at home they would have been on the meldonium team. Sokolov could have been passed up entirely.

Perceptions aside, Abramov had a very nice season. He is facing the same scouting biases as Johnny Gaudreau, and I think he will overcome them.
My concern for the kids was not over their draft stock, but for their development as players. These guys were supposed to be the top talents, but they left for a system where kids are fully developed after age 17, and Abramov and Sokolov both flunked the test because playing 90 games per season and living out of a suitcase was an inadequate development platform for them to grow. There is a very small market in the NHL for small kids who can only play finesse offense, so apparently Abramov just wasn't good enough to supplant the 64 players who were taken ahead of him.

As for Sokolov, I disagree that he wasn't passed up entirely. Being drafted in the 7th round, I probably have just as good a chance of landing a spot in the Wild lineup as Sokolov does. But I do think that Sokolov was being more realistic in moving to Canada than Abramov was.

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06-26-2016, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Remember when Vitaly Abramov and Dmitry Sokolov were the hot prospects coming out of Russia? So they emigrated to the CHL to lock down the gold and fortune that would surely be coming their way. Today, their prospects were dealt a shuddering jolt when Abramov was drafted in the 3rd round of the NHL Draft, and Sokolov in the 7th round near the bottom of the sheet, far below prospects such as Vladimir Bobylev and Mikhail Maltsev.

Its not impossible for a 3rd round draft pick to eventually wind up in the NHL, but there are so many players ahead of them that the club has more money invested in that it doesn't happen all that often. As a small player in a small rink surrounded by giants and monsters, Abramov will really have to have remarkable success in junior hockey and the AHL to put himself in line for an NHL roster spot. As a 7th rounder, Sokolov has virtually no chance at all. And yet a whole new boat full of the best prospects will once sail off to the CHL with no prospects at all of a better outcome.
For every Sokolov and Abramov, there is a Yegor Korshkov who went higher than he was supposed to, granted as an overager.

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06-26-2016, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Who cares. Panarin was undrafted.
Exactly.

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06-26-2016, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
My concern for the kids was not over their draft stock, but for their development as players. These guys were supposed to be the top talents, but they left for a system where kids are fully developed after age 17, and Abramov and Sokolov both flunked the test because playing 90 games per season and living out of a suitcase was an inadequate development platform for them to grow. There is a very small market in the NHL for small kids who can only play finesse offense, so apparently Abramov just wasn't good enough to supplant the 64 players who were taken ahead of him.

As for Sokolov, I disagree that he wasn't passed up entirely. Being drafted in the 7th round, I probably have just as good a chance of landing a spot in the Wild lineup as Sokolov does. But I do think that Sokolov was being more realistic in moving to Canada than Abramov was.
Let's review:

a) It doesn't matter where these guys are drafted (so maybe let's stop talking about this)

b) Were Abramov/Sokolov ill-served to cross the ocean? I don't think this is clear in their case. The real disaster story here is Kuznetsov.

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06-26-2016, 11:22 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
Let's review:

a) It doesn't matter where these guys are drafted (so maybe let's stop talking about this)

b) Were Abramov/Sokolov ill-served to cross the ocean? I don't think this is clear in their case. The real disaster story here is Kuznetsov.
It seems more clear-cut to me that they were ill-served in crossing the ocean. But maybe I am overestimating the amount of talent they actually had. The example of Korshkov is one that I agree with. He stayed home and developed a very impressive skill package, and NHL scouts and GM's agree with me on that. He will likely have a good shot at playing in the NHL, if that is what he wants. The guys who went over early to play in Canadian junior have not panned out to be good NHL players. It just never seems to work out for them, although there may be a variety of reasons why.

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06-27-2016, 12:48 PM
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I think Abramov and Sokolov are unusual cases. Let's not forget that both were disrespected somewhat by not being chosen for national team rosters. This could have changed this past season, I suppose, but we don't know that.

I would have loved to have seen Abramov on the U18 team, where I think he would have done great. But to the eyes of the scouts, he still would have been small. And, again, he would not have made it to the U18 championships to get additional exposure.

Specifics aside, I agree with your general concerns about players leaving. If the recent developments will discourage young players from leaving then we are all pleased.

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06-27-2016, 04:49 PM
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If Sokolov wouldn't have left, he would be forced to undergo that surgery without any hesitation already last summer. That would probably cut down his draft chances this year completely though.

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02-25-2017, 12:48 PM
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Do you guys think Sokolov and Abramov return to Russia next season? I see no point in these guys going back to the CHL as 19 year olds. Assuming the Wolves finally improve and Sokolov isnt the only guy who can score a goal (Levin is nearest guy... 15 points later), he could probably hit 65 goals, but what is the point? Both guys drafted and dominated their respective leagues, what more can they do?

For example 3 games ago when Wolves played 67s, the game was like a pond hockey game. If there is anyone complaining about the quality of play in then MHL then you should have watched this game. Defense and goalies were atrocious (combined 13g were scored). Yeah Sokolov and Tyanulin both scored some sweet goals, but in a real league those goals dont happen. These guys need a bigger challenge, belong in the VHL.

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02-25-2017, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
Exactly.
I think we'll see more of this, elitepropects.com filter KHL stats under 24. Mind almost blown, you would expect to see drafted guys like Nichushkin, Golyshev, Kokhlachev, Prokhorkin and many others to be closer to the top 10, but thats not the case. Fact: Lots of NHL level skilled young guys undrafted playing in KHL. Maybe its better not to draft Russian guys all together, just sign as free agents when they are 22, let them do their own thing. I think Chicago has already set the trend, other teams will slowly follow, then the kids will see and stop going to the CHL.

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02-25-2017, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malkinfan View Post
Do you guys think Sokolov and Abramov return to Russia next season? I see no point in these guys going back to the CHL as 19 year olds. Assuming the Wolves finally improve and Sokolov isnt the only guy who can score a goal (Levin is nearest guy... 15 points later), he could probably hit 65 goals, but what is the point? Both guys drafted and dominated their respective leagues, what more can they do?

For example 3 games ago when Wolves played 67s, the game was like a pond hockey game. If there is anyone complaining about the quality of play in then MHL then you should have watched this game. Defense and goalies were atrocious (combined 13g were scored). Yeah Sokolov and Tyanulin both scored some sweet goals, but in a real league those goals dont happen. These guys need a bigger challenge, belong in the VHL.
I think Abramov definitely hasn't anything left to do in juniors, but, iirc, he has already signed ELC, so he can go to Europe only if Blue Jackets will loan him there.

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02-26-2017, 10:00 PM
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Problem is that no KHL team will sign these guys to a 1-year deal.

No, they won't go back.

Like it or not, they are staying in CHL (waste of time and all) for another season.

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02-28-2017, 10:57 AM
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Abramov is a very skilled guy, but you can count on one hand the number of small guys with a finesse-only package who hang around in the NHL for any period of time.

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02-28-2017, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Abramov is a very skilled guy, but you can count on one hand the number of small guys with a finesse-only package who hang around in the NHL for any period of time.
At the worst he walks in Tkachyov's steps, he aint doing too bad.

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03-01-2017, 10:21 AM
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Do you mean the KHL? If not, I wasn't aware that one of the Tkachyovs was in the NHL.

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03-01-2017, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Do you mean the KHL? If not, I wasn't aware that one of the Tkachyovs was in the NHL.
I guess he is talking about Tkachyov from Admiral, who played in Q and then came back to Russia/KHL.

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03-01-2017, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I guess he is talking about Tkachyov from Admiral, who played in Q and then came back to Russia/KHL.

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03-02-2017, 10:25 PM
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@MaxV There is the strange case of Goldobin who dominated CHL as a 19 y/o so they loaned him to Finland for a year. I would rather see him in the VHL but at this point anything is better than the CHL. Wonder why these guys sign the ELC so young, if they didnt they could go back to Russia for 2 maybe or 3 years. Now that they sign they are stuck between a rock and a hard place once if they are 19 and dominated the CHL.

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03-03-2017, 04:25 AM
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@malkinfan

Read this meeting of Russian Council of Sport. Especially what Arkady Rotenberg (de facto boss of FHR) said, that is a plan how FHR wants to change Russian hockey.

Quote:
Принципиальный момент – государство до определённого времени полностью обеспечивает подготовку спортсмена, вкладывает в него деньги в тех же детско-юношеских спортивных школах. Но в какой‑то момент на талантливого и уже обученного подростка выходит агент и подписывает с ним контракт. Такая ситуация, кстати, не только в хоккее, а повсеместно, и это несправедливо.

Необходимо создать механизм, позволяющий государству закрепить за собой право на компенсацию, в случае если спортсмен или его агент решат играть за иностранные клубы.
Quote:
State of Russia finances development of a sportsman, financially support kids hockey schools. But later, agent comes and signs a contract with your player. It is not fair.

We need to develop a mechanism when the country would get money back, which are invested into development of a player, if a player or his agent decide to sign with foreign club
By foreign club he means CHL or NHL.

The biggest problem is that Russians are drafted to NHL out of CHL clubs. So they have to play CHL, NHL team can not send them to AHL. So many bad examples, but players still dont get it.

The best option is to stay in Russia until you are 22-24 years old. Tell me, how many AHL games have Zaitsev play? Or Radulov or Kuznetsov or Tarasenko or Panarin. On the other hand, we have Tolchinsky or Barbashev and co. Bad, bad and bad decision.

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