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Ovechkin pulls ahead by 3 points

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01-11-2006, 07:52 PM
  #76
Goldark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pens1566
No, I got the point. I was just making note of you mentioning "by a large margin". What would you call a large margin? 50 pts?

Fair or not, Crosby was hailed as the "Next one." A generational talent on the level of Gretzky and Lemieux. Ovechkin, although acknowledged as an exceptional talent, did not nearly receive the same amount of hype.

Once again, fair or not, higher expectations of production are expected from Crosby.

In a few seasons, if Ovechkin and Crosby perform at similar levels (ie Crosby only slightly outperforming Ovechkin or vice versa), then the argument that "Crosby is doing all this...only at the age of 18, he'll be dominating in a couple seasons due to the exponential development that takes place between 18 and 20" proves to be a fallacy because Ovechkin would have developed at the same pace from 20 to 22, proving that a player's development from 18 to 20 isn't as big of a deal as first thought.

The only way that argument holds water is that yes, Crosby must outperform Ovechkin by a large margin within a few seasons, otherwise Ovechkin entering the league at 20 and Crosby entering the league at 18 is irrelevant, and thus, it was pointless to bring it up to begin with.

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01-11-2006, 08:07 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldark
Fair or not, Crosby was hailed as the "Next one." A generational talent on the level of Gretzky and Lemieux. Ovechkin, although acknowledged as an exceptional talent, did not nearly receive the same amount of hype.

Once again, fair or not, higher expectations of production are expected from Crosby.

In a few seasons, if Ovechkin and Crosby perform at similar levels (ie Crosby only slightly outperforming Ovechkin or vice versa), then the argument that "Crosby is doing all this...only at the age of 18, he'll be dominating in a couple seasons due to the exponential development that takes place between 18 and 20" proves to be a fallacy because Ovechkin would have developed at the same pace from 20 to 22, proving that a player's development from 18 to 20 isn't as big of a deal as first thought.

The only way that argument holds water is that yes, Crosby must outperform Ovechkin by a large margin within a few seasons, otherwise Ovechkin entering the league at 20 and Crosby entering the league at 18 is irrelevant, and thus, it was pointless to bring it up to begin with.
"Slightly" and "large margin" are pretty vague. Care to be more specific? I personally think that no matter how much he outscores AO, if he does at all, he'll be called a bust just because he doesn't score 213 and 93 goals.

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01-11-2006, 08:12 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pens1566
"Slightly" and "large margin" are pretty vague. Care to be more specific? I personally think that no matter how much he outscores AO, if he does at all, he'll be called a bust just because he doesn't score 213 and 93 goals.
"Slightly" and "large margins" are relative terms to be discussed when and if anything like this comes to pass. But in general, I'd say that within 10 points either way is performing about the same level. 20+ points is a large margin, in my opinion. Of course this is based on current scoring trends. If Crosby puts up 200 points and AO puts up 180, I'd say they're about the same level, just due to the percentage differences. Others' opinions may differ.

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01-11-2006, 08:34 PM
  #79
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Kovalchuk and Healtey entered the NHL at 18 and 20. Was that much of a deal? Both are at around 1.6 points per game right now.

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01-11-2006, 08:43 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn_kemp
Kovalchuk and Healtey entered the NHL at 18 and 20. Was that much of a deal? Both are at around 1.6 points per game right now.

I believe Kovalchuk will be higher PPG because he's missed 6 games, and I think he has more points. Definatly has more goals.

EDIT: MY bad, Heatley has only played one more game. Kovalchuk is 8 points up on him though.

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01-11-2006, 08:48 PM
  #81
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57 & 63

but it could very well be the other wat around. and it was, 2 weeks ago

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01-11-2006, 09:10 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt MacInnis
It's more of developmental reality.

There is no disputing that the development of a hockey player from age 18 to age 20 is substantial.
It's one draft year. It's significant, but to suggest Crosby will be substantially better than Ovechkin @20 will never be qualified. Crosby has subsantially better linemates now and could have better/worse 2 years from now. And "better" is a matter of opinion, I should add.

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01-11-2006, 09:42 PM
  #83
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wow Crosby is already digging himself a hole!!!

scoreless and -2 against the Jackets!!!

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01-11-2006, 09:46 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by tom_servo
Time for us Crosbyites to eat our humble pie!
It tastes like ashes.

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01-11-2006, 10:50 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBear
I agree. Sindey Crosby couldnt hold his jock strap to the superior A.O.
....Because Ovechkin would eat it. This is why he sticks his tongue out so often. Only Ovechkin could survive eating Crosby's jock strap.
Also, every Chuck Norris movie is based on Ovechkin's experiences.

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01-11-2006, 11:05 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt MacInnis
I couldn't care less who wins what, but to say there is no difference between 18 and 20 is simply wrong.
Sure, development wise there is a 2 year gap - but if people are claiming about size and strength or whatever, really there is no difference between 18 and 20 with the weight training.

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01-12-2006, 12:01 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Sure, development wise there is a 2 year gap - but if people are claiming about size and strength or whatever, really there is no difference between 18 and 20 with the weight training.
What a ridiculous statement.

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01-12-2006, 01:10 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobv2
Imagine what Crosby could be doing in two years.. Amazing.
Dive more?

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01-12-2006, 01:29 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldark
Fair or not, Crosby was hailed as the "Next one." A generational talent on the level of Gretzky and Lemieux. Ovechkin, although acknowledged as an exceptional talent, did not nearly receive the same amount of hype.
I read plenty of articles and listened to plenty of people call Ovechkin the best talent since Lemieux. The pre-draft hype of both players was extremely similar. Both came onto the radar bigtime at young ages. Both called the best prospect since Lemieux. The difference on here was in that the Canadian posters far outnumber the Russian ones. More exposure, hence more perceived hype.

How easily some forget the incredible pre-draft hype Ovechkin had.

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01-12-2006, 01:35 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris the Blade
How easily some forget the incredible pre-draft hype Ovechkin had.
Because that hype was nowhere near with hype we had year after that. BTW, "incredible" is not that word. Every source with history of draft following had articles about AO like about every other 1st overall before, but with more hype, yes. Media in Washington had more articles. I remember one artilce at NHL.com. TSN.ca had few. At HFboards.com it was "Ovechkin vs. Crosby" and "Malkin isn't far behind". Other than that it was usual draft. Hey, there were only few articles about russians going 1st and 2nd overall (articles were about fact) in Russia. There wasn't real focus on Ovechkin. The same situation like this year. "Kessel vs. others" and "EJ isn't far behind".

Compare with 2005 draft.


Last edited by Kaizer: 01-12-2006 at 01:42 AM.
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01-12-2006, 01:49 AM
  #91
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The age gap is a bit closer than 2 whole years. But there is a gap. While I'll admit that the age gap is certainly a difference maker in some of Crosby's game, it isn't the end all. There were plenty of fans (plenty who still attempt to remain credible on these boards) who felt that Crosby was good enough to do a lot better than Ovechkin, and that the age difference did not mean anything.

I don't think either player is a ton better than the other. I think Ovechkin is obviously more complete of a player at this stage, but he is also a physical specimen that Crosby isn't.


In either case, I think while many point out that Ovechkin is a year or so older than Crosby, many forget that he did put up significant numbers in the RSL last year as a 19 year old. He was pretty high up in the scoring race in that league (a low scoring league) until his shoulder injury in the WJC that left him not at 100% for a bit. Had the NHL been playing games last year, I'd wager that Ovechkin would have put up significant numbers (though certainly not this high total with the hockey style being different.

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01-12-2006, 01:51 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaizer
Because that hype was nowhere near with hype we had year after that. BTW, "incredible" is not that word. Every source with history of draft following had articles about AO like about every other 1st overall before, but with more hype, yes. Media in Washington had more articles. I remember one artilce at NHL.com. TSN.ca had few. At HFboards.com it was "Ovechkin vs. Crosby" and "Malkin isn't far behind". Other than that it was usual draft. Hey, there were only few articles about russians going 1st and 2nd overall (articles were about fact) in Russia. There wasn't real focus on Ovechkin. The same situation like this year. "Kessel vs. others" and "EJ isn't far behind".

Compare with 2005 draft.
I don't know, i went to the draft where Ovechkin was taken. he was certainly hyped. People talked about him being one of the better prospects since Mario, and also being one of the best Russians ever drafted. I mean, looking at it now, maybe those things that were said aren't far off. But I took it with a grain of salt then.

But he hasn't been as hyped as Crosby has. Crosby's been labeled the next great hall of fame level player by the greatest player ever to lace em up. That is the hype of all hype.

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01-12-2006, 01:57 AM
  #93
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Most of you fools probably have never even seen a Crosby game or an Ovechkin game. I am absolutely SICK of this whole debate. Things like this make me want to quit talking to hockey fans all together. It was bad enough we had to deal with Lemieux vs. Gretzky for 20 years. People can't ****ing just sit and deal with the fact that the two of them are extremely talented and will be making some incredible plays for years to come, and no matter how much you bicker and b*tch amongst yourself, Crosby and Ovechkin will never hear you, and they'll go on with their careers as if you never even existed.

They do not dislike eachother, in fact I'm sure they respect and admire eachother very much as hockey players, so why can't you idiots do the same? You take these rivalries to such extreme heights as if these players were your own children, but the truth is that they're just created so you babies gossip and moan about it and create a stir so people jump bandwagons and polarize like this is some damned reality tv show!

Hockey players are people! They do their job and then go home and watch television like the rest of us. I'm sure if you met Crosby or Ovechkin in person you'd realize that they're very pleasant individuals to talk to, and you'd be humiliated for ever bad mouthing either one of them for such petty and ridiculous comparisons that you draw day-to-day.

Just shut up and enjoy the hockey already!

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01-12-2006, 02:09 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJT510
Just shut up and enjoy the hockey already!

What he said, *******s. Shutup and enjoy the hockey. HF can be a great experience if you all just quit your petty *****ing and moaning about who is/will be better. Who gives a damn about whether Crosby will be better in 2 years than Ovechkin will be, or if Ovechkin would have 40 goals by now playing with good linemates. Just shut the **** up and enjoy the two best players since, well, the two best players ever.


Signed,
People who aren't idiots

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01-12-2006, 08:21 AM
  #95
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Sometimes I get the feeling that Ovechkin should be ashamed that he's 2 years older than Crosby, so let me just remind you a couple of facts :

- Ovechkin wasn't eligible for the NHL draft before 2004. Crosby was eligible a year later, 2005.

- Ovechkin should have started his career in 2004-2005, but there was no season. He would have won the Calder Trophy hands down that year.

Now why should he pay the price for NHL draft eligibility rules and a bad CBA? He's 2 years older than Crosby, alright, but I don't see how it should influence the Calder race!

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01-12-2006, 08:23 AM
  #96
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Dear Mods,

Please close me.

Signed,

This thread.

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No promises this time.
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01-12-2006, 08:23 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris the Blade
enjoy the two best players since, well, the two best players ever.


Sounds funny though!

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01-12-2006, 08:27 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knight44
Svatos is still keeping up with Ovechkin in goals, and Svatos does play tomarrow agianst the Canadiens!

Ovechkin plays with no one yes, but so does Svatos, right now he is on a line with Brunette and Mclean, and plus he only plays 13 min a game not like Oveckin. I am not saying Svatos should win the calder right now but the race aint over!
Svatos plays with Sakic and in PP with people like Hejduk.

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01-12-2006, 02:59 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by gbl1p
What a ridiculous statement.
No kidding. The statements only get more ridiculous.
Unbelievable.

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01-12-2006, 03:07 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Sure, development wise there is a 2 year gap - but if people are claiming about size and strength or whatever, really there is no difference between 18 and 20 with the weight training.
Got to not only agree with my fellow posters that this is beyond ridiculous but make it pretty clear. Imagine a 17 year old high school kid going straight to the NFL. Can not happen, but just imagine what he would be able to do out there. Now look at the wunderkids in the NBA who went straight to the NBA from high school. How often does that pan out? I can think of three times, out of the 40 or 50 times the chance has been taken, and even with those it took them some time to really dominate in a way Crosby has this year in hockey. The difference between 18 and 20 in sports is huge. What Crosby is doing is huge. Does that automatically equal Crosby being 'world's better' than Ovechkin when he hits 20? Of course not, maybe he is one of these freaks of nature that peaks at 17/18. Hell, Ovechkin may be a 'late bloomer' despite his amazing start and has quite a bit of ceiling left to reach. But right now I do not see a huge edge for either in picking between them, so if I were a betting man Crosby may be a better bet merely because of that age difference. Ovechkin should be dominating an 18 year old right now at 20 and is not. It is not at all unreasonable to say that though reasonable people could differ on the issue.

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