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ozolinsh/jovonovski

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Old
10-19-2003, 02:10 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Well, if we take Lidstrom as 99, I'd give Jovanovski an 88 and Ozolinsh a 69.
I'd say Ozolinsh is better than a 69. He has vastly improved his defensive game and is no longer the liability he was earlier in his career.

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Old
10-19-2003, 02:12 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo
basically the conclusions you can come to without any real base, but rather by checking a lot of stats.
I don't know if that's true... checking stats would show a +18 for Jovo last year, which isn't a mark set up a dman who's considered a defensive liability.

I think it's based more on scouting reports done in year's past, ignoring what actually happened most recently, and the development curve which has been happening for a few years.

If you look just at stats, it'd be easy to see that Jovo has improved significantly defensively, while improving offensively at the same time...

unless ofcourse you really believe that Lachance is actually Adam Foote in disguise, and Marek Malik is the greatest defensive dman of all time!

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Old
10-19-2003, 02:16 PM
  #28
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I don't think there's any question that Jovanovski is the better player between him and Ozolinsh, but his defensive game is being pretty underrated here. I'd rank Jovo in the top 10 defense in the league. He's not Top 5 yet--the likes of Lidstrom, Blake, Zubov, etc. are still ahead of him. I'd rate Jovo a 90, and Ozolinsh an 82. Jovanovski can score, can make plays, can hit, can fight, and CAN play defense. Watch the videos of the 2002 Olympics. Jovanovski was one of the best defensemen on the ice, and given the company he was in and against, that says something. On Vancouver he's asked to play primarily an offensive role, but his defensive game is improving by leaps and bounds. His +19 last year was a testament to that. Although he's still learning, as his finaly games against Minnesota in the Playoffs show.

Jovanovski is a Top 10 defender in the league, in my opinion. I think his defensive game is being underrated.

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10-19-2003, 04:33 PM
  #29
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Jovo 88
Ozo 82

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Old
10-19-2003, 05:01 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
I'm sure you'd like to give Ozolinsh a 69! OH YEAH!
That's disturbingly funny.

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Old
10-19-2003, 05:06 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
I closed the window by acident, while typing a long post on this so I'll keep it short:

For a so called top 10, hell top 5 defenseman in the NHL (according to the boards his way above the likes of Rob Blake, Sergei Zubov and Scott Niedermayer), Jovo has a rather poor defensive coverage and has long ways to go before being a steady lock as one of NHL's top 10 defenseman, as I probably rate him somewhere between 10 and 20 right now.
I would say Jovanovski is better defensivly than both Zubov or Blake, personally. He can make a few giveaways (less than 1 a game these days), but he plays on our PK, Power play, and hell of a lot of even strength minutes. If he was a defensive liability, flat out, he wouldn't be out there much.

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Old
10-19-2003, 05:48 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I would say Jovanovski is better defensivly than both Zubov or Blake, personally. He can make a few giveaways (less than 1 a game these days), but he plays on our PK, Power play, and hell of a lot of even strength minutes. If he was a defensive liability, flat out, he wouldn't be out there much.
Though I agree, methinks you're going to be fried for that one Miz. :p

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Old
10-19-2003, 06:04 PM
  #33
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I believe Zubov led the league in giveaways two seasons ago. As for Blake, I personally wouldn't say his defense is top 10 either. He is very similar to Jovo in that they are risk takers who aren't the greatest d-men positionally. Neither are poor defensively, but there are many d-men out there who are better at the defensive side of the game IMO.

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Old
10-19-2003, 07:08 PM
  #34
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OK guys, name the dmen who are better all-around than Jovo?

Offence, defensive play, physical play, leadership.

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Old
10-19-2003, 07:53 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pucks
OK guys, name the dmen who are better all-around than Jovo?

Offence, defensive play, physical play, leadership.
My list:

Niklas Lidstrom-not physical, but head and shoulders above Jovo in all other aspects.
Chris Pronger-when healthy, he is the 2nd best d-man in the league.
Al MacInnis-even at 40 years old he is still as strong as ever. Unfortunately, he'll likely be out all year...
Adam Foote-average offensively, but one of the best defenseive d-man in the league. Strong physical play and a great leader as well.
Scott Niedermayer-one of the best two-way defenders in the league. If he was playing for an offensive minded club, he'd likely put up similar or better offensive numbers than Jovo and is a couple notches above defensively.


These are the players who I think are clearly better than Jovo right now. There are many players who I think are about even overall with Jovo:

Sergei Gonchar
Sergei Zubov
Wade Redden
Rob Blake
Derian Hatcher
Brian Leetch
Roman Hamrlik
Scott Stevens(although he is almost strictly a defensive d-man now)

And then a notch below that:

Sandis Ozolinsh
Teppo Numminen
Mathieu Schneider
Eric Brewer
Derek Morris
Andrei Markov
Janne Niinimaa
Adrian Aucoin
Zdeno Chara
Kim Johnsson
Tomas Kaberle
Mattias Ohlund

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Old
10-19-2003, 08:06 PM
  #36
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Jovo 80
Ozolinsh 72

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Old
10-19-2003, 08:10 PM
  #37
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Brian Leetch?
3 years ago yah...in no way does he rank among the games elite now though...

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Old
10-19-2003, 08:15 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
My list:

Niklas Lidstrom-not physical, but head and shoulders above Jovo in all other aspects.
Chris Pronger-when healthy, he is the 2nd best d-man in the league.
Al MacInnis-even at 40 years old he is still as strong as ever. Unfortunately, he'll likely be out all year...
Adam Foote-average offensively, but one of the best defenseive d-man in the league. Strong physical play and a great leader as well.
Scott Niedermayer-one of the best two-way defenders in the league. If he was playing for an offensive minded club, he'd likely put up similar or better offensive numbers than Jovo and is a couple notches above defensively.


These are the players who I think are clearly better than Jovo right now. There are many players who I think are about even overall with Jovo:

Sergei Gonchar
Sergei Zubov
Wade Redden
Rob Blake
Derian Hatcher
Brian Leetch
Roman Hamrlik
Scott Stevens(although he is almost strictly a defensive d-man now)

And then a notch below that:

Sandis Ozolinsh
Teppo Numminen
Mathieu Schneider
Eric Brewer
Derek Morris
Andrei Markov
Janne Niinimaa
Adrian Aucoin
Zdeno Chara
Kim Johnsson
Tomas Kaberle
You're telling me you'd rather have Schneider, Markov, Ozolinsh, Johnsson, Brewer over Mattias Norstrom? That guy isn't good offensively, but he's a rock on the blueline along the lines of Foote.

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Old
10-19-2003, 08:16 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waveburner
Brian Leetch?
3 years ago yah...in no way does he rank among the games elite now though...
I disagree. Leetch was great last year for the Rangers and the Rangers were a top 8 team in the Eastern Conference with him in the line-up. Injuries have caught up to him, so I agree that he has lost a step from before, but when healthy, he is easily capable of putting up 50+ points and playing pretty good defensive hockey.

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Old
10-19-2003, 08:18 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
You're telling me you'd rather have Schneider, Markov, Ozolinsh, Johnsson, Brewer over Mattias Norstrom? That guy isn't good offensively, but he's a rock on the blueline along the lines of Foote.
I actually forgot about Norstrom. But overall, I would take Markov, Johnsson, and Brewer ahead of Norstrom. He's a rock on the blueline, but not much else. I mean 6 points last season? We are talking "overall" d-men here, not stay-at-home d-men...

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Old
10-19-2003, 08:19 PM
  #41
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Lidstrom 97
Blake 92
Foote90
Jovanovski 89
Ozolinsh 81

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Old
10-19-2003, 08:46 PM
  #42
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Jovo ain't got nothing on Zubov in either end. Zubov survived Hitchcock's system as the #1, is a consistant member of our PK and continue's to come up big when needed, even in his own end. He's arguably a top top 5 defensemen in terms of two-way play.

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Old
10-19-2003, 09:06 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KL
Jovo 91
Ozo 85
Foote 93
Lidstrom 98
Gonchar 93
McKee 82
Skoula 73
Witt 77
Blake 96
Chelios 79
Pronger 96

--
KL
I think you're a bit too generous with Foote's rating(his play has slid a bit with age) but virtually everything else on that list I agree with.

~Canucklehead~

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Old
10-19-2003, 09:13 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucklehead17
I think you're a bit too generous with Foote's rating(his play has slid a bit with age) but virtually everything else on that list I agree with.

~Canucklehead~
No, he's way too generous about Rob Blake, a 96? He's not equal to Chris Pronger and he ain't a top 5 defenseman any longer. Foote should be ranked above Blake, both are top 10 defensemen though.

Lidstrom: 99
Pronger: 97
MacInnis: 97
--------------
pretty big gap..
--------------
Sergei Zubov: 94
Sergei Gonchar: 94
Derian Hatcher: 92
Adam Foote: 92
Rob Blake: 91
Scott Niedermayer: 91
Wade Redden: 90

That would be my top 10. With Jovo, Stevens, Leetch, Ohlund floating between 11/15.

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Old
10-20-2003, 05:15 AM
  #45
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offensively-speaking...

ozolinsh>jovanovski

 
Old
10-20-2003, 06:09 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evildreams
offensively-speaking...

ozolinsh>jovanovski
I would wager, given current playing circumstances and assuming an idealistic, injury free year for both players.

Jovo outscores Ozo this season.

Assuming Lidstrom hovers around the 95 mark.

Jovo: 86
Ozo: 77

Ozolinsh appears to be returning to 'form' after an amazing playoff performance and has shown he's still the same liability in his own end. He has the worst +/- on the Ducks thus far (though the entire team doesn't look stellar).

-5 Ozo? Tsk, tsk.

Jovo>>Ozo

 
Old
10-20-2003, 06:49 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Jovo ain't got nothing on Zubov in either end. Zubov survived Hitchcock's system as the #1, is a consistant member of our PK and continue's to come up big when needed, even in his own end. He's arguably a top top 5 defensemen in terms of two-way play.
Gee, sounds a lot like Jovo. Except that Jovo has a physical aspect to his game. Zubov may have a slight advantage offensively and defensively, but Jovo's physical prescence evens them out. Both are very comparable players overall.

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Old
10-20-2003, 07:00 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Gee, sounds a lot like Jovo. Except that Jovo has a physical aspect to his game. Zubov may have a slight advantage offensively and defensively, but Jovo's physical prescence evens them out. Both are very comparable players overall.
Not at all, Jovo wouldn't have survived Hitchcock's system the way Zubov did. Zubov flourished and got through the same translation as Mike Modano did, transforming from a one sided exceptional offensive defenseman to a two way stud.

Never mind pure skills, where Zubov is probably the most skilled defenseman in the NHL, Jovo is still trying to use all of his offensive weapons together and consistantly. I fail to see how Jovo is marginally worse defensively when he hasn't gotten the same defensive tasks and responsibilities as Sergei has experienced with sucess, much less when you add in that Jovo is just coming around.

Then Jovo's physicality, which is pretty good, easily better then Zubov, but also easily better then Lidstrom. The fact is, you either are physical, or you use smarts, being physical might cause more intimidation but often also causes (unnecessary) penalties, whereas smarts, if used utterly effectively, has no flaws. Jovo's physical game doesn't equals out anything and he has actually a long way to go before he can be labeled a top 5 defebseman and potential Norris candidate, something Zubov is both.

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Old
10-20-2003, 07:18 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Jovo ain't got nothing on Zubov in either end. Zubov survived Hitchcock's system as the #1, is a consistant member of our PK and continue's to come up big when needed, even in his own end. He's arguably a top top 5 defensemen in terms of two-way play.

I love Zubov, but he is no better than average in his own zone. I watch enough Dallas games to be comfortable with that assessment.

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Old
10-20-2003, 07:20 AM
  #50
Peter Griffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Not at all, Jovo wouldn't have survived Hitchcock's system the way Zubov did. Zubov flourished and got through the same translation as Mike Modano did, transforming from a one sided exceptional offensive defenseman to a two way stud.
Speculation. You have no clue of whether or not Jovo would have flourished under Hitchcock's system. Right now Jovo is playing great offensively and great defensively, who says he couldn't do it in a defensive system?

Quote:
Never mind pure skills, where Zubov is probably the most skilled defenseman in the NHL, Jovo is still trying to use all of his offensive weapons together and consistantly. I fail to see how Jovo is marginally worse defensively when he hasn't gotten the same defensive tasks and responsibilities as Sergei has experienced with sucess, much less when you add in that Jovo is just coming around.
Zubov has done well in a defensive system(although he led the league in giveaways two seasons ago), but he also had a defensive standout in Derian Hatcher alongside him for a long time in Dallas. Jovo never had that luxury. The closest Jovo has is Ohlund(who is no slouch defensively), but they almost never play as a pairing. Jovo has been paired with makeshift top 4 d-men in Marek Malik and Scott Lachance, not Norris trophy candidates in Derian Hatcher like Zubov has.

Quote:
Then Jovo's physicality, which is pretty good, easily better then Zubov, but also easily better then Lidstrom. The fact is, you either are physical, or you use smarts, being physical might cause more intimidation but often also causes (unnecessary) penalties, whereas smarts, if used utterly effectively, has no flaws.
Smarts is nice, but a combination of smarts and toughness is even better. I'm not saying that Jovo is as smart on the ice as a guy like Lidstrom or even Zubov, but he knows his way around the ice, and unlike the 1st two, can change the momentum of the game with a big hit, or scare guys away from carrying the puck around him for too long. Physical play is nothing to balk at, I'm sure your favorite d-man in Derian Hatcher wouldn't...


Quote:
Jovo's physical game doesn't equals out anything and he has actually a long way to go before he can be labeled a top 5 defebseman and potential Norris candidate, something Zubov is both.
Just a little info for you. The last two seasons, Jovo has finished in the top 10 in voting for the Norris trophy(6th two seasons ago, 5th last year) Zubov hasn't cracked the top 10. I'll take the professionals oppinions over yours...

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