HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Who retired with less hardware than they probably deserved?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-18-2016, 01:55 PM
  #51
Gary Nylund
Registered User
 
Gary Nylund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,174
vCash: 500
Gretzky. Not enough hardware available to do that career justice.

Gary Nylund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2016, 02:36 PM
  #52
pensfan7477
Phil The Thrill Hype
 
pensfan7477's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Dahntahn Burgh
Country: United States
Posts: 8,855
vCash: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSZ View Post
Like others have said, those other than Wayne and Mario in the 80s/ 90s deserved more recognitions. Luc Robitaille is one of them.
Meh, he was good but I don't really think he missed out on too much. He was a star player but he never really stood out.

pensfan7477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2016, 02:38 PM
  #53
pensfan7477
Phil The Thrill Hype
 
pensfan7477's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Dahntahn Burgh
Country: United States
Posts: 8,855
vCash: 300
Jagr definitely missed out on a couple Hart Trophies.

pensfan7477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2016, 02:40 PM
  #54
mrhockey193195
Registered User
 
mrhockey193195's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,913
vCash: 500
Any of the HOF centers that overlapped with Gretz and Mario. Mess and Yzerman won plenty of hardware, but probably would have won a lot more had they existed in other decades. Francis, Oates, gilmour, Hawerchuk, Savard, Stastny all would have likely had better resumés.

I would argue that Sakic, Forsberg, Lindros, Sundin, Modano didn't miss out too much since their HOF caliber play mainly came towards the end of Mario's first run and when Gretz dropped from super-human to just plain "elite".

mrhockey193195 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2016, 07:33 PM
  #55
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 6,332
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
Any of the HOF centers that overlapped with Gretz and Mario. Mess and Yzerman won plenty of hardware, but probably would have won a lot more had they existed in other decades.
If Mark Messier had remained a LW throughout his career, how many All-Star selections does he receive?

1st Team: 1982, 1983, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1992, 1996
2nd Team: 1984, 1989, 1994, 1995

Any other multi-position players like Messier and Red Kelly who might receive a bump?

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2016, 07:48 PM
  #56
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 14,642
vCash: 500
Others

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
If Mark Messier had remained a LW throughout his career, how many All-Star selections does he receive?

1st Team: 1982, 1983, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1992, 1996
2nd Team: 1984, 1989, 1994, 1995

Any other multi-position players like Messier and Red Kelly who might receive a bump?
Alex Delvecchio especially if at LW full time. Perhaps Doug Mohns if allowed to play a rushing d-man role. Brent Burns if a d-man full time upon entering the NHL.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2016, 08:53 PM
  #57
Ishdul
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Country: Lithuania
Posts: 3,825
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
If Mark Messier had remained a LW throughout his career, how many All-Star selections does he receive?

1st Team: 1982, 1983, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1992, 1996
2nd Team: 1984, 1989, 1994, 1995

Any other multi-position players like Messier and Red Kelly who might receive a bump?
I'm in agreement with the general perception that LW is a less competitive position at the highest level than RW which is less competitive than C, so really any guy who moved up would qualify. Recent guys would be Claude Giroux and Tyler Seguin. In 2012 (when he was definitely a centre) Giroux got 46 total All-Star votes at RW and 90 at C, but 224 voting points (with 43 first place votes) at RW compared to 146 (and 1 first place vote) at C. I would also venture a guess that the 14 voters who didn't have him for either position considered him a C.

Ishdul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2016, 11:31 PM
  #58
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,425
vCash: 500
The likes of Bossy, Stastny, Hawerchuk and Dionne come to mind. Directly affected by Gretzky getting in the way of them.

It is really crazy that Jagr had only one Hart in 1999. However, the truth is he's still doing well with 5 Art Rosses and I can personally justify why he didn't win a Hart in another year. He wasn't robbed at all, just surprising.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2016, 11:44 PM
  #59
Billerdzzz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ontario,Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 378
vCash: 500
Marcel Dionne
Mike Gartner
Mats Sundin
Mario Lemieux
Cam Neely
Alex Mogilny
Pavel Bure

Billerdzzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2016, 11:46 PM
  #60
authentic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 6,782
vCash: 500
Lemieux, Forsberg and one day Crosby.

authentic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2016, 11:49 PM
  #61
EpochLink
Canucks and Jets fan
 
EpochLink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 31,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
He got robbed that year. He should have won either the Vezina or the Hart, and got neither.

Finished

2nd in Lindsay voting
2nd in Hart voting
2nd in Vezina voting

if you can believe that.
If you want to see the absolute best of Roberto Luongo, that 2006-2007 was probably the best in his career. All Luongo has is a freaking Jennings Trophy from 2010-2011. He's going to the Hall of Fame and 400+ wins. What a shame that his best season was also the best season for Brodeur and Crosby's coming out party.

Pronger could've had the 2006 Conn Smythe Trophy if Edmonton would've won, he was the absolute best that playoff run, no offence to Pisani. Not so much 2010 if Philly won, that was gonna go to Briere.

Someone earlier mentioned Chelios, 3 Norris Trophies isn't that bad considering his prime era was dominated by Bourque/Leetch/Coffey. If I had to chose two others would probably be Larry Murphy and Scott Stevens post 1995.

EpochLink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2016, 02:07 AM
  #62
Plural
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 29,358
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by pensfan7477 View Post
Peter Forsberg. Mario Lemieux. Bobby Orr.
I don't see Forsberg or Lemieux missing out on any. Well, you could make a case that Lemieux deserved the Pearson (and maybe Hart too) in his 199 season. But he didn't deserve Pearson in 85-86.

Forsberg got what he deserved imo. You seem to be basing these two on the idea that they suffered injuries. But that doesn't mean they deserved more. They just were unfortunate to be injured.

Plural is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2016, 06:33 AM
  #63
The Panther
Registered User
 
The Panther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Country: Japan
Posts: 5,335
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Forsberg got what he deserved imo. You seem to be basing these two on the idea that they suffered injuries. But that doesn't mean they deserved more. They just were unfortunate to be injured.
I agree. I don't really get this thread, actually. Players don't "deserve" more hardware because they were great players. If you wanted to win the Art Ross in the 80s/90s, you had to score more points than Gretzky, Lemieux, and/or Jagr. If you didn't score more than them, you didn't deserve the hardware.

Not understanding why Crosby's name is being brought up here (for one thing, he's not retired...?). If anything, he'd be on the other list for 'got more than he deserved'. What has Crosby not won that he deserved?

The Panther is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2016, 07:01 AM
  #64
GuineaPig
Registered User
 
GuineaPig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Montréal
Posts: 2,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
Not understanding why Crosby's name is being brought up here (for one thing, he's not retired...?). If anything, he'd be on the other list for 'got more than he deserved'. What has Crosby not won that he deserved?
I'd argue he should have got the 2009 Conn Smythe. Malkin putting up a couple extra points on Carolina didn't separate him from how good Crosby was that spring.

GuineaPig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2016, 07:19 AM
  #65
Plural
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 29,358
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
I'd argue he should have got the 2009 Conn Smythe. Malkin putting up a couple extra points on Carolina didn't separate him from how good Crosby was that spring.
Was he more deserving of it than this season? He has one Conn Smythe wich he arguably didn't deserve and he doesn't have one Conn Smythe he arguably did deserve. I see these two cancelling each other out. He could have 2 and he could have 0. 1 seems like a good middle ground.

Regarding Art Ross, Rocket Richard trophies or assist titles, they are pretty cut and dry. Sakic would probably have one if Lemieux didn't come back and get Jagr ahead of Sakic. But in the end, Sakic did not deserve it. Jagr had the most points at the end of the season.

I think Hart/Lindsay/Selke/Norris/Vezina(after it started to be voted)/All-Star selections are something that one can argue about.

Did Ovechkin really deserve his latest Hart over Crosby? Was Yzerman really deserving of the Pearson over Lemieux? That kind of stuff.

Being injured is a lame excuse in my opinion. Being beaten by supreme player is lame excuse. But there are times when the voting is close and some other player takes the trophy even if we feel that player was not the most deserving.

Plural is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2016, 07:47 AM
  #66
GuineaPig
Registered User
 
GuineaPig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Montréal
Posts: 2,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Was he more deserving of it than this season? He has one Conn Smythe wich he arguably didn't deserve and he doesn't have one Conn Smythe he arguably did deserve. I see these two cancelling each other out. He could have 2 and he could have 0. 1 seems like a good middle ground.
I don't think anyone else really deserved the Conn Smythe this year more than Crosby. It was a weak year, no doubt. Certainly far from the best CS wins. But I don't think there was a more deserving candidate than Crosby.

GuineaPig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2016, 07:53 AM
  #67
Plural
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 29,358
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
I don't think anyone else really deserved the Conn Smythe this year more than Crosby. It was a weak year, no doubt. Certainly far from the best CS wins. But I don't think there was a more deserving candidate than Crosby.
Maybe, maybe not. I think a lot of people were thinking Kessel or few other Pens players. The point being, if Crosby deserves one from the year Malkin won (which is not usually contested decision, Malkin is often cited as the strongest winner since the lockout) then there's just as good of a case to be made that he didn't deserve one this season.

Like I said, he could have zero, one or two. One seems like a good middle-ground, thus making his Conn Smythe count "accurate". Not lacking or inflated.

Plural is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2016, 08:32 AM
  #68
dilbert719
Registered User
 
dilbert719's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,380
vCash: 500
Iginla comes to mind, or he will when he retires. 6x All-Star, 1x Pearson, and a handful of leadership awards. No Cups, no Hart, 2 Richard, 1 Art Ross.

Outside of that, Lindros. In his case, it's more a matter of what could have happened with him had he not suffered so many concussions, and had his parents' feud with Bobby Clarke not become so all-consuming.

Oh, yeah, and one more for when he retires: Shea Weber, who has never, and likely will never, win a Norris. I'm never going to accept that one. This is probably a case where "too much hardware" and "too little hardware" intersect: Weber likely should have won in 2010-11, instead of Lidstrom (who probably should have won something earlier in his career than he did; that may have stopped the tide of "it's always Lidstrom" from happening at the end of his career.)


Last edited by dilbert719: 07-19-2016 at 12:48 PM.
dilbert719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2016, 09:21 PM
  #69
Ishdul
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Country: Lithuania
Posts: 3,825
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
I agree. I don't really get this thread, actually. Players don't "deserve" more hardware because they were great players. If you wanted to win the Art Ross in the 80s/90s, you had to score more points than Gretzky, Lemieux, and/or Jagr. If you didn't score more than them, you didn't deserve the hardware.

Not understanding why Crosby's name is being brought up here (for one thing, he's not retired...?). If anything, he'd be on the other list for 'got more than he deserved'. What has Crosby not won that he deserved?
I would've voted him 1st for 2010 Hart/Lindsay, and certainly a lot of people thought he should have won the Hart in 2013.

Ishdul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2016, 10:15 PM
  #70
Pantokrator
Who's the clown?
 
Pantokrator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Semmes, Alabama
Country: Guatemala
Posts: 4,809
vCash: 2974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivanko View Post
Peter Stastny scored 900 points in his first 600 games and has nothing to show for it but the Calder.
I thought of Stastny and Hawerchuk, but they were just at a bad time in the NHL with Gretzky's dominance.

Brad Park had to live with Orr getting all the Norris trophies.

As a Flyers fan, my first thought was Mark Howe who really deserved the Norris once or twice in the 80s.

Pantokrator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2016, 10:20 PM
  #71
Pantokrator
Who's the clown?
 
Pantokrator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Semmes, Alabama
Country: Guatemala
Posts: 4,809
vCash: 2974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishdul View Post
I would've voted him 1st for 2010 Hart/Lindsay, and certainly a lot of people thought he should have won the Hart in 2013.
I think that's true. I think Crosby's problem is that people got tired of his name or expected more from him, or his injuries limited him depending on the year so he got looked over. I think he really deserved it in 2010 based on how many more points he had than the next player on his team.

Pantokrator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2016, 10:22 PM
  #72
The Panther
Registered User
 
The Panther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Country: Japan
Posts: 5,335
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishdul View Post
I would've voted him 1st for 2010 Hart/Lindsay, and certainly a lot of people thought he should have won the Hart in 2013.
The 2010 season he was 3rd in Hart voting, with less than half as many 1st-place votes as both Sedin and Ovechkin. Given this, I don't think it's reasonable to say he deserved it. 2013 he missed 25% of the games, and nobody wins the Hart doing that (with the exception of Mario in '93).

I'd say Crosby has won exactly what he deserves -- no more, no less.

The Panther is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2016, 10:28 PM
  #73
The Panther
Registered User
 
The Panther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Country: Japan
Posts: 5,335
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
As a Flyers fan, my first thought was Mark Howe who really deserved the Norris once or twice in the 80s.
He was great, and it would have been nice to see him win one. He finished 2nd three times, to three different players: Langway, Coffey, and Bourque, each having their career-season (or equivalent). So, it was tough going for Mark Howe.

1985-86 kind of jumps out, though. Usually when a D-man has 82 points, is +85, plays for the NHL's #1 team, and finishes 3rd in Hart voting, you'd assume he's winning the Norris. But that was the year Coffey broke Bobby Orr's goals-record and had 138 points.

The Panther is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2016, 10:31 PM
  #74
Plural
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 29,358
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishdul View Post
I would've voted him 1st for 2010 Hart/Lindsay, and certainly a lot of people thought he should have won the Hart in 2013.
Seriously? Lindsay too? I can somewhat understand the Hart (although I think Ovechkin was in line before Crosby) but there is no way Crosby was more "outstanding player" than Ovechkin that season. By and far the best offensive player of that season.

Plural is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2016, 05:06 AM
  #75
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 14,642
vCash: 500
Crosby

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I think that's true. I think Crosby's problem is that people got tired of his name or expected more from him, or his injuries limited him depending on the year so he got looked over. I think he really deserved it in 2010 based on how many more points he had than the next player on his team.
Not Crosby's problem rather the problem of the viewers who expect the player to somehow compete against the greats like Gretzky or Lemieux as opposed to his only objective, lifting the cup after the last game of the NHL playoffs.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:17 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.