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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Who retired with less hardware than they probably deserved?

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Old
07-20-2016, 06:51 AM
  #76
JackSlater
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
The 2010 season he was 3rd in Hart voting, with less than half as many 1st-place votes as both Sedin and Ovechkin. Given this, I don't think it's reasonable to say he deserved it.
If you are just going to look at the voting to determine who deserved it, there is no point in discussing any of the awards. Ovechkin would have won handily had he not been suspended in 2010, but Crosby certainly deserved it over Sedin, regardless of what the votes turned out to be. Sedin was able to play most of the season with his ideal linemate. Crosby played with garbage, had far more goals and was 8 for 10 in the shootout (unfortunately a valid consideration for Hart). Neither was a significant factor defensively. Not sure that Crosby deserved the Hart over Ovechkin or Miller, but he definitely deserved it over Sedin.

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07-20-2016, 08:43 AM
  #77
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I think I had Crosby just ahead of Ryan Miller.


How about Paul Coffey? Would anyone bat an eye if 1995 was his fifth Norris instead of his third?

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07-20-2016, 08:53 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I think I had Crosby just ahead of Ryan Miller.


How about Paul Coffey? Would anyone bat an eye if 1995 was his fifth Norris instead of his third?
Maybe 4. Not 5. (I suppose the relevant years would be 1984 and 1989)

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07-20-2016, 09:29 AM
  #79
Nocashstyle
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Stevens. He deserved a Norris or two

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07-20-2016, 09:58 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Nocashstyle View Post
Stevens. He deserved a Norris or two
... While a guy of Stevens' caliber should've won a Norris, giving him a Norris in any given year where he would've been a decent candidate would simply mean that Ray Bourque was robbed.

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07-20-2016, 11:59 AM
  #81
Zolik37
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Marian Hossa should have won a selke or two by now...

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07-20-2016, 12:31 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by HarrySPlinkett View Post
Chris Pronger: 1 Norris Trophy. That's insane.
He's got a Hart Trophy too.

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Old
07-20-2016, 02:25 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
... While a guy of Stevens' caliber should've won a Norris, giving him a Norris in any given year where he would've been a decent candidate would simply mean that Ray Bourque was robbed.
I don't think 94 would have been a robbery. He barely lost as is.

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07-20-2016, 02:36 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Ishdul View Post
I don't think 94 would have been a robbery. He barely lost as is.
...Badly worded for '94.
I mean, it's Bourque, and he led in D scoring.

That's not Phil Housley or Erik Karlsson or even Paul Coffey.

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07-20-2016, 03:57 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
...Badly worded for '94.
I mean, it's Bourque, and he led in D scoring.

That's not Phil Housley or Erik Karlsson or even Paul Coffey.
Stevens wasn't that far behind him offensively (91 points to 78, playing on what I'd consider to be a less talented team offensively while outproducing Bourque at ES) and was considered the best defensive defenseman in the league. I don't have a problem with Bourque winning but it was rightfully a toss-up. Definitely wouldn't have been a robbery.

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07-21-2016, 01:40 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Ishdul View Post
Stevens wasn't that far behind him offensively (91 points to 78, playing on what I'd consider to be a less talented team offensively while outproducing Bourque at ES) and was considered the best defensive defenseman in the league. I don't have a problem with Bourque winning but it was rightfully a toss-up. Definitely wouldn't have been a robbery.
Coaches polls from 1994 had Bourque ahead of Stevens and (and Chelios) for best defensive defenceman. See the intangibles stickied thread.

Best Defensive Defenseman
1. Ray Bourque (8) 2. Chris Chelios (6) 3. Scott Stevens (4).

Obviously Stevens was a possible choice as best defensive defenceman but I wouldn't say he was the consensus choice.

Before Bourque was injured in the final month of the season he was a serious Hart candidate and was on pace to win the Norris comfortably. Only the late season injury made it close.

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07-21-2016, 01:51 PM
  #87
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That's the first guy I thought of. Could have easily won 3 or 4 Norris Trophies except for that # 4 guy in Boston.
I was going to say Park as well..... Adam Oates is another one, if it wasn't for Gretzky and Lemieux.

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07-21-2016, 03:45 PM
  #88
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Scotty Bowman - Just 2 Jack Adams? Are you kidding me? And he had to have the 2 best seasons in NHL history to do it as well.

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07-25-2016, 04:31 AM
  #89
Don Corleone
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Scotty Bowman - Just 2 Jack Adams? Are you kidding me? And he had to have the 2 best seasons in NHL history to do it as well.
So much this. However, it really is not much of a surprise as the Adams is a joke. Nearly always the coach that had his team increase its point totals the most from the season before wins the Adams. Some of the best coaches in league history have either one or two or even zero wins to their name and yet average coaches like Paul MacLean or Patrick Roy have won it.

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Old
07-25-2016, 06:46 PM
  #90
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Luongo. Getzlaf, potentially.

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07-25-2016, 06:49 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I think that's true. I think Crosby's problem is that people got tired of his name or expected more from him, or his injuries limited him depending on the year so he got looked over. I think he really deserved it in 2010 based on how many more points he had than the next player on his team.
Not true. He won the Ross/Hart in 2007, which was three seasons earlier. Had zilch after that, so I disagree with the bolded.

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07-25-2016, 08:48 PM
  #92
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Pat Lafontaine. 1013 points in 865 games. 1 Bill Masterton.

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07-25-2016, 10:10 PM
  #93
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Scott Stevens first one who comes to mind

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07-26-2016, 01:50 AM
  #94
EpochLink
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Al MacInnis - 1 Norris Trophy.

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07-26-2016, 05:13 AM
  #95
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Al MacInnis - 1 Norris Trophy.
You forgot the Conn Smythe.

I think 1 Norris and 1 Conn Smythe for MacInnis is actually enough. That's no small haul.

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07-26-2016, 12:19 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
If you are just going to look at the voting to determine who deserved it, there is no point in discussing any of the awards. Ovechkin would have won handily had he not been suspended in 2010, but Crosby certainly deserved it over Sedin, regardless of what the votes turned out to be. Sedin was able to play most of the season with his ideal linemate. Crosby played with garbage, had far more goals and was 8 for 10 in the shootout (unfortunately a valid consideration for Hart). Neither was a significant factor defensively. Not sure that Crosby deserved the Hart over Ovechkin or Miller, but he definitely deserved it over Sedin.
I never had an issue with Henrik Sedin getting the Hart.

- At ES he had 83 ES points. As a raw unadjusted point total it's the most since Jaromir Jagr's 95 in 1996, and is the only post-2000 season in the all-time top 50. His points are more heavily weighted towards assists - but this was the best ES playmaking season by any player since Gretzky and Lemieux. And Lemieux only ever beat Sedin's 60 in raw totals once - (61 in 88-89). Even with his brother missing 1/4 of the year, Henrik Sedin's unadjusted ES assist totals were better than peak Adam Oates. Adjusting ES assists would pull King Henrik ahead of Mario Lemieux's best years, and at least on par with Gretzky's best Kings years (70 in both 89-90 and 90-91). When the assists are that plentiful, you can get away with being a merely good (Top 25) goal-scorer.

- On the PP Sedin was outscored by Crosby 34-27. This is impressive since Sedin had 2/3 of Crosby's PP ice-time. Crosby also had a lot of Malkin/Gonchar on his PP unit. Crosby closes the raw points gap with Henrik on the PP, but Sid wasn't a significantly better PP player. Though the two teams were essentially tied in PP opportunities, Crosby was given the lion's share of Pittsburgh's PP ice-time, whereas the Vancouver Canucks had a more "democratic" distribution of PP time.

- On the PK, neither played a ton, but Crosby makes up no ground. The Pens allowed 1 net PPGA when he was on the ice, while the Canucks let in 0 net PPGA with Henrik. If anything Crosby loses a little ground, but it's really too close to be anything but a wash.

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07-26-2016, 01:36 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
I never had an issue with Henrik Sedin getting the Hart.

-At ES he had 83 ES points. As a raw unadjusted point total it's the most since Jaromir Jagr's 95 in 1996, and is the only post-2000 season in the all-time top 50. His points are more heavily weighted towards assists - but this was the best ES playmaking season by any player since Gretzky and Lemieux. And Lemieux only ever beat Sedin's 60 in raw totals once - (61 in 88-89). Even with his brother missing 1/4 of the year, Henrik Sedin's unadjusted ES assist totals were better than peak Adam Oates. Adjusting ES assists would pull King Henrik ahead of Mario Lemieux's best years, and at least on par with Gretzky's best Kings years (70 in both 89-90 and 90-91). When the assists are that plentiful, you can get away with being a merely good (Top 25) goal-scorer.
... Okay, that's definitely a lot more impressive than I realized. Unfortunately, it's also a one-hit wonder year against what's probably regarded as Ovechkin's best year in a string of great years from peak Ovechkin, and people will always give Henrik Sedin's win the side-eye.

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07-26-2016, 02:52 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
You forgot the Conn Smythe.

I think 1 Norris and 1 Conn Smythe for MacInnis is actually enough. That's no small haul.
Would have liked to see him pick up a Hart nomination in 2003.

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07-26-2016, 05:39 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by HarrySPlinkett View Post
Chris Pronger: 1 Norris Trophy. That's insane.
Always amazed he he couldn't get one during Lidstrom's run, when most of his previous competition slowed down or retired.

1997-1998, 2003-2004 and 2006-2007 were all years he was a 2nd AST and third place Norris finish. Oddly enough he never placed second. But when you look at his Norris voting record its not that insane that he only won once.

15, 3, 4, 1, 10, 5, 3, 7, 3, 8, 5, 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdok View Post
Pat Lafontaine. 1013 points in 865 games. 1 Bill Masterton.
I did a lot of research on him for the ATD and he had such a short peak that it was going to be hard to win anything. yea, he got screwed in 1993 when Lemieux came back and played like a mad-man but he did make the 2nd AST over Gilmour that year. Injuries of course hurt him as did playing with prime Gretzky/Lemieux/Sakic/Yzerman/Gilmour/Fedorov etc.

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Old
07-26-2016, 06:05 PM
  #100
JackSlater
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
I never had an issue with Henrik Sedin getting the Hart.

- At ES he had 83 ES points. As a raw unadjusted point total it's the most since Jaromir Jagr's 95 in 1996, and is the only post-2000 season in the all-time top 50. His points are more heavily weighted towards assists - but this was the best ES playmaking season by any player since Gretzky and Lemieux. And Lemieux only ever beat Sedin's 60 in raw totals once - (61 in 88-89). Even with his brother missing 1/4 of the year, Henrik Sedin's unadjusted ES assist totals were better than peak Adam Oates. Adjusting ES assists would pull King Henrik ahead of Mario Lemieux's best years, and at least on par with Gretzky's best Kings years (70 in both 89-90 and 90-91). When the assists are that plentiful, you can get away with being a merely good (Top 25) goal-scorer.

- On the PP Sedin was outscored by Crosby 34-27. This is impressive since Sedin had 2/3 of Crosby's PP ice-time. Crosby also had a lot of Malkin/Gonchar on his PP unit. Crosby closes the raw points gap with Henrik on the PP, but Sid wasn't a significantly better PP player. Though the two teams were essentially tied in PP opportunities, Crosby was given the lion's share of Pittsburgh's PP ice-time, whereas the Vancouver Canucks had a more "democratic" distribution of PP time.

- On the PK, neither played a ton, but Crosby makes up no ground. The Pens allowed 1 net PPGA when he was on the ice, while the Canucks let in 0 net PPGA with Henrik. If anything Crosby loses a little ground, but it's really too close to be anything but a wash.
Sedin's even strength points are probably his best argument. Still, their total point separation is three, and Crosby handily outscored him in goals. That Sedin had more adjusted even strength assists than various other players in different years is nice almost-trivia, but doesn't mean much about that particular season relative to Crosby's (or Ovechkin's or Miller's).

I can't really get over Crosby's horrible linemates (some combination of Guerin and Dupuis I believe) relative to Sedin's pretty ideal situation. Sharing some PP time with Malkin doesn't really come close to spending most of the season with your perfect linemate who scored at basically the same pace. That Sedin also had ridiculous offensive zone starts against surprisingly low competition (Vigneault's work) and was a worse possession player than Crosby also goes against him. Little things like faceoffs and shootout performance (arguably not so small) also go in Crosby's favour. Sedin winning was no travesty, but I really couldn't justify him higher than #4.

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