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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Who retired with less hardware than they probably deserved?

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Old
07-26-2016, 06:28 PM
  #101
Joedaman55
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Sedin's even strength points are probably his best argument. Still, their total point separation is three, and Crosby handily outscored him in goals. That Sedin had more adjusted even strength assists than various other players in different years is nice almost-trivia, but doesn't mean much about that particular season relative to Crosby's (or Ovechkin's or Miller's).

I can't really get over Crosby's horrible linemates (some combination of Guerin and Dupuis I believe) relative to Sedin's pretty ideal situation. Sharing some PP time with Malkin doesn't really come close to spending most of the season with your perfect linemate who scored at basically the same pace. That Sedin also had ridiculous offensive zone starts against surprisingly low competition (Vigneault's work) and was a worse possession player than Crosby also goes against him. Little things like faceoffs and shootout performance (arguably not so small) also go in Crosby's favour. Sedin winning was no travesty, but I really couldn't justify him higher than #4.
Don't want to derail the thread too far but doesn't Crosby tend to play better with poorer linemates? I think I remember this when I was talking to my buddy that was a Penguins fan a year ago.

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07-26-2016, 07:59 PM
  #102
Epsilon
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Sedin's even strength points are probably his best argument. Still, their total point separation is three, and Crosby handily outscored him in goals. That Sedin had more adjusted even strength assists than various other players in different years is nice almost-trivia, but doesn't mean much about that particular season relative to Crosby's (or Ovechkin's or Miller's).

I can't really get over Crosby's horrible linemates (some combination of Guerin and Dupuis I believe) relative to Sedin's pretty ideal situation. Sharing some PP time with Malkin doesn't really come close to spending most of the season with your perfect linemate who scored at basically the same pace. That Sedin also had ridiculous offensive zone starts against surprisingly low competition (Vigneault's work) and was a worse possession player than Crosby also goes against him. Little things like faceoffs and shootout performance (arguably not so small) also go in Crosby's favour. Sedin winning was no travesty, but I really couldn't justify him higher than #4.
Two things that don't really show up just looking at the end of season stat sheets and lineup cards:

1. When Daniel Sedin went down with an injury, Henrik stepped up and took on more of a scoring role (I recall he scored an abnormally high portion of his total goals for the season during that period) and was credited with keeping the Canucks running respectably. On the flip side, when Malkin went down with an injury the Penguins went on a big winless streak and Crosby was cold (or at least, not scoring enough to offset Malkin's absence).

2. Crosby was (relatively) far back with only 2 games left in the season, then put up 10 points (including a bunch of goals) against AHL-quality backup/injury replacements in net for the Islanders. His stats ended up looking more impressive than they arguably should have because of those meaningless (standings-wise) games against really weak competition.

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07-26-2016, 10:20 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Voight View Post
Always amazed he he couldn't get one during Lidstrom's run, when most of his previous competition slowed down or retired.

1997-1998, 2003-2004 and 2006-2007 were all years he was a 2nd AST and third place Norris finish. Oddly enough he never placed second. But when you look at his Norris voting record its not that insane that he only won once.

15, 3, 4, 1, 10, 5, 3, 7, 3, 8, 5, 10
Pronger's biggest issues with his Norris voting is that he got hurt a non-trivial amount of time in what would have otherwise been his best years. He was having monster seasons in 2001 and 2007 and if he's fully healthy he wins the Norris but that wasn't the case. Maybe challenges in 99, too.

I also think his 2006 and 2010 season's got less attention than they deserved because his teams had terrible goaltending.

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07-27-2016, 02:03 AM
  #104
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Would have liked to see him pick up a Hart nomination in 2003.
Al MacInnis in 2002/2003 made NHL First Team All Star with Pronger being gone for much of the year and playing with a rookie defensemen in Barrett Jackman. Also, St.Louis had a rotating shift of goaltenders throughout the year eventually getting Osgood from the New York Islanders at the deadline.

Jari Kurri - 1 Lady Byng, he could've gotten the Conn Smythe in 85.

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07-27-2016, 02:12 AM
  #105
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Jari Kurri - 1 Lady Byng, he could've gotten the Conn Smythe in 85.
Kurri is one of the great playoff performers all time, but I don't think he had any hope of getting the '85 Conn Smythe. It usually is -- and should be, in my opinion -- based partly (or largely) on performance in the Finals.

Kurri scored 12 goals in the third round in '85 (no, that's not a typo) and then scored 1 goal in the Final. Gretzky scored 7 goals in the last four games of the Final, and hugely out-produced Kurri overall (as did Coffey).

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07-27-2016, 02:20 AM
  #106
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12 goals in one round?

Nevertheless, I don't think Kurri deserved the Smythe over Gretzky.

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07-27-2016, 04:01 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
12 goals in one round?
Ha, yes that Edmonton-Chicago '85 series set a lot of records for offense.

Kurri was basically scoring at will in that series, but Gretzky had 8 primary assists (and 1 secondary) on his 12 goals. You could say Chicago had a few issues with their goaltending in that series...

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07-27-2016, 03:28 PM
  #108
EpochLink
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Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
Kurri is one of the great playoff performers all time, but I don't think he had any hope of getting the '85 Conn Smythe. It usually is -- and should be, in my opinion -- based partly (or largely) on performance in the Finals.

Kurri scored 12 goals in the third round in '85 (no, that's not a typo) and then scored 1 goal in the Final. Gretzky scored 7 goals in the last four games of the Final, and hugely out-produced Kurri overall (as did Coffey).
Actually, I think 1990 would've been a perfect year for Kurri to win the Conn Smythe. He scored a ton of clutch goals that playoff run.

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07-28-2016, 12:25 AM
  #109
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Actually, I think 1990 would've been a perfect year for Kurri to win the Conn Smythe. He scored a ton of clutch goals that playoff run.

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07-28-2016, 01:01 AM
  #110
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Is there a case to be made that Jari Kurri is the best player (RS and playoffs combined) who never was the best player on his team?

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07-28-2016, 01:53 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Is there a case to be made that Jari Kurri is the best player (RS and playoffs combined) who never was the best player on his team?
Foresberg or Fedorov

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07-28-2016, 02:24 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by creg78 View Post
Foresberg or Fedorov
I think it's debatable whether these two were never the best players on their NHL teams. Kurri on the other hand is a safe bet.

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07-28-2016, 02:53 AM
  #113
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Forsberg or Fedorov
Oh come on now. Both won the Hart. They easily were the best player on their teams at some point.

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Old
07-30-2016, 01:49 AM
  #114
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Everyone that lead NHL in goals in a season before they had a award for it. Crazy that they didn't have a award for it for such a long time.

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09-06-2016, 03:26 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by creg78* View Post
Foresberg or Fedorov
Mike Bossy. Too little hardware, also.

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09-06-2016, 04:18 PM
  #116
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Mike Gartner. He's a Hall of Famer, but never won a cup or an NHL award. He was always productive (30 goals for 15 seasons straight) and accumulated some all time great numbers over a career, but was never the best over any season and really under a lot of people's radar considering his peers at the time.

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09-06-2016, 04:38 PM
  #117
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Brad Park. Not his fault his name isnt Bobby Orr

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09-06-2016, 04:55 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Splatter View Post
Mike Gartner. He's a Hall of Famer, but never won a cup or an NHL award. He was always productive (30 goals for 15 seasons straight) and accumulated some all time great numbers over a career, but was never the best over any season and really under a lot of people's radar considering his peers at the time.
I really, really wondering which award Gartner deserved at any point in his career.

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09-06-2016, 06:04 PM
  #119
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Terry Sawchuk.

He probably would've won more Vezinas under today's criteria (Most Outstanding Goalie) as opposed to when it was basically the Jennings Trophy. Or the Conn Smythe Trophy had it been around back in 1952.

Maybe he could have won a Hart Trophy during his 1951-1955 run with the Red Wings.

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09-06-2016, 08:10 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by ChrisK97 View Post
Terry Sawchuk.

He probably would've won more Vezinas under today's criteria (Most Outstanding Goalie) as opposed to when it was basically the Jennings Trophy. Or the Conn Smythe Trophy had it been around back in 1952.

Maybe he could have won a Hart Trophy during his 1951-1955 run with the Red Wings.
Sawchuk has four Vezina trophies but was only voted first team all star three times. Glenn Hall only has three Vezinas but was a first team all star seven times. Vezina and all star voting don't always match, but Hall may have missed out on more hardware.

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09-06-2016, 11:33 PM
  #121
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Lemieux 88-89 and 91-92 hart.

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09-07-2016, 01:21 AM
  #122
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Börje Salming. Just bad luck that he ran into an era of Bobby Orr, Larry Robinsson and Dennis Potvin. He was top 5 seven years straight but never won.

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09-07-2016, 04:00 AM
  #123
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Börje Salming. Just bad luck that he ran into an era of Bobby Orr, Larry Robinsson and Dennis Potvin. He was top 5 seven years straight but never won.
I see what you did there. Poor Salming lost a few Norris trophies because he ran into another all-time great Swedish defenceman, Robinsson. Yeah, sure...

Just kidding.

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Old
10-13-2016, 08:27 PM
  #124
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Ed Giacomin.

His only major hardware was sharing the Vezina with Villemure in '71 (when the Vezina was basically the Jennings Trophy).

In terms of outstanding individual goalies, he probably would have won three straight Vezinas from 1967-1969 if you look at his stats those years.

Rare that a HHOF goalie has such little individual hardware.


Last edited by ChrisK97: 10-14-2016 at 01:09 AM.
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Old
10-13-2016, 10:47 PM
  #125
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Lemieux 88-89 and 91-92 hart.
1988-89, yes. 1991-92, no.



At the end of the day, nearly every good player won about as much as they "should have". Actually, if you are the Brad Park-type and were sort-of #2 (to Orr and Potvin) for many years, it's perhaps bad luck for your trophy-case, but it doesn't mean you should have won more. Park won as many Norrises as he deserved -- zero.

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