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Who retired with MORE hardware than they probably deserved?

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Old
07-18-2016, 09:34 AM
  #1
VanIslander
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Who retired with MORE hardware than they probably deserved?

If there are several guys "Who retired with less hardware than they probably deserved" then there must be some who retired with more.

I'd include Crosby, but he ain't retired yet.

So, I'll start with... Lidstrom. He won 7 in 10 years because this century started off with less than a plethora of great defensemen in their prime.

Of course, the same could be said of Brodeur's 4 Vezinas in 5 years this century. It's insane that Roy won less Vezinas than Brodeur!

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07-18-2016, 09:41 AM
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JackSlater
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Langway and his two Norris trophies. Too difficult to believe that such a one dimensional player was better than Howe/Potvin/Bourque or that his one dimension was better than Coffey's in 1984. Great defenceman, just not the best in those seasons.

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07-18-2016, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post

Of course, the same could be said of Brodeur's 4 Vezinas in 5 years this century. It's insane that Roy won less Vezinas than Brodeur!
...What's probably more insane is Brodeur winning them over Luongo. So yeah, good one in that regards.

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07-18-2016, 10:34 AM
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Jagr. Not much competition for the scoring title in the late 90s.

Disagree with Lidstrom. Lidstrom was Norris runner-up for three seasons. Not winning those Norris Trophies cancels out any other Norris Trophies that he won but did not "deserve".

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07-18-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Sticks and Pucks View Post
Jagr. Not much competition for the scoring title in the late 90s.

Disagree with Lidstrom. Lidstrom was Norris runner-up for three seasons. Not winning those Norris Trophies cancels out any other Norris Trophies that he won but did not "deserve".
Ehh... Other than 2000, his closest pursuers would have been legit NHL scoring champions...

Not to mention Jagr won those non-2000 Art Rosses by a somewhat significant margin (Sakic was close to him in 2001, but Jagr and Sakic were also significantly over 3rd place, and Sakic on a spike season would probably be a Art Ross winner 70 times out of 100, with the other 30 being Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr-fueled and Jagr-on-a-very-good year seasons).

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07-18-2016, 11:00 AM
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I'd definitely say Lidstrom and Brodeur were subsequently over-compensated for how long they had to wait to win their first. They were both really, really, really good (slam-dunk top-7 in their position), but it didn't hurt that they played for teams that could masquerade the types of down-years we saw scattered throughout their positional contemporaries' careers on lower tier teams - or that Brodeur saw 70+ GP seasons to accumulate wins or that Lidstrom wasn't breaking bones as he wasn't one of the Red Wings' primary shot-blockers.

I think the 2003 and 2004 Vezina Trophies and 2011 Norris Trophy likely went to the wrong player, while the 2001 and 2007 Norris Trophies went to the best defenseman who wasn't tagged by a slapshot instead of the best overall defenseman.

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07-18-2016, 11:15 AM
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Canadiens1958
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Issue

Issue seems to be quantity vs quality of the hardware. Rare is the player who could combine both.

Harvey and Plante had the advantage of playing a position where sharing ice time was not a consideration. Others did not or were somewhere in between.

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07-18-2016, 12:04 PM
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The trophies are about being the best in the given season. I would say that is deserving.

Also, Crosby? If anything, injuries robbed him of 3 Art Ross trophies (and therefore possibly another Hart or Lindsay trophies, or a shot at Conn Smythe while we're at it (2011))

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07-18-2016, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by True Hockey Fan View Post
The trophies are about being the best in the given season. I would say that is deserving.

Also, Crosby? If anything, injuries robbed him of 3 Art Ross trophies (and therefore possibly another Hart or Lindsay trophies, or a shot at Conn Smythe while we're at it (2011))
...yeah. But some players are robbed, and in some years, there could've been no award awarded and nobody would really have complained.

I guess that's why Crosby has been mentionned due to his recent Connie Smythe.

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07-18-2016, 12:21 PM
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Lidstrom, Brodeur, Langway, and Messier. All of the above played at just the right time to maximize trophy count or weird voting.

Edit: Add Ovechkin as a recent example.

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07-18-2016, 12:29 PM
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Newfy OilPenguin
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I know he won only one award but Raycroft winning the calder that year left me puzzled.

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07-18-2016, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Newfy OilPenguin View Post
I know he won only one award but Raycroft winning the calder that year left me puzzled.
...Well... He did have a very good season, and the lone other logical choice was Michael Ryder.

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07-18-2016, 12:48 PM
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Robbed

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
...yeah. But some players are robbed, and in some years, there could've been no award awarded and nobody would really have complained.

I guess that's why Crosby has been mentionned due to his recent Connie Smythe.
But has a player ever been robbed of a Stanley Cup or the Lady Byng for that matter?

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07-18-2016, 12:57 PM
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Newfy OilPenguin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
...Well... He did have a very good season, and the lone other logical choice was Michael Ryder.
For me it comes down to age really I suppose. Just seems wrong for a guy like Raycroft to win it at age 23, didn't agree with Nabokov at 25. But besides Mason I suppose that's par for the rookie goaltending winners.

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07-18-2016, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Newfy OilPenguin View Post
For me it comes down to age really I suppose. Just seems wrong for a guy like Raycroft to win it at age 23, didn't agree with Nabokov at 25. But besides Mason I suppose that's par for the rookie goaltending winners.
..Well, it was Raycroft, Ryder or Hunter (and even Hunter is far-fetched). They were all 23.

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Old
07-18-2016, 01:50 PM
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Ovechkin and Bourque and Gretzky(1989 hart)

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07-18-2016, 01:50 PM
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67Leafs67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
If there are several guys "Who retired with less hardware than they probably deserved" then there must be some who retired with more.

I'd include Crosby, but he ain't retired yet.

So, I'll start with... Lidstrom. He won 7 in 10 years because this century started off with less than a plethora of great defensemen in their prime.

Of course, the same could be said of Brodeur's 4 Vezinas in 5 years this century. It's insane that Roy won less Vezinas than Brodeur!
Really, Sid? Sure he got that one Conn Smythe that he probably didn't deserve, but he also missed out on at least two Hart Trophies (2011, 2013, maybe even 2012 the way he was playing), and Art Ross Trophies that he certainly deserved because of injuries.

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07-18-2016, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by creg78 View Post
Ovechkin and Bourque and Gretzky(1989 hart)
I don't see how Bourque qualifies here, as he clearly deserved each of his 5 Norris Trophies and probably should've got a couple more (83-84 and 95-96).

As far as Gretzky goes; I wouldn't have given him the Hart in '89, but he should've won it in '91, so that evens out.

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Old
07-18-2016, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
I don't see how Bourque qualifies here, as he clearly deserved each of his 5 Norris Trophies and probably should've got a couple more (83-84 and 95-96).

As far as Gretzky goes; I wouldn't have given him the Hart in '89, but he should've won it in '91, so that evens out.
To put it simply, I don't think he was the best defenceman in the league 5 times.

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07-18-2016, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by creg78 View Post
To put it simply, I don't think he was the best defenceman in the league 5 times.
You're right... Probably closer to 7 or 8.

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07-18-2016, 02:23 PM
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Considering his prime overlapped with Chelios I really don't see how that's possible.

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07-18-2016, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by creg78 View Post
Considering his prime overlapped with Chelios I really don't see how that's possible.
... With regards, that's kinda like saying Lidstrom is overly decorated due to having his prime at the same time as Chris Pronger.

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Old
07-18-2016, 02:33 PM
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For the majority of his career Lidstrom was better then Pronger save for maybe 1 or 2 years. (2000 and 2001 seasons, 2001 cut short by injury)

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07-18-2016, 02:34 PM
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E- I completely forgot about Langway, no way that guy should of won any Norris trophies over Robinson or Potbin.

He beats the other 2 I mentioned by far.

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Old
07-18-2016, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by creg78 View Post
For the majority of his career Lidstrom was better then Pronger save for maybe 1 or 2 years. (2000 and 2001 seasons, 2001 cut short by injury)
And, well, the same could be said for Bourque and Chelios, mind you.

I mean, Chelios is an absolute all-time great who is probably the G Penalty Killer OAT.

But Raymond Bourque he was not.

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