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Who retired with MORE hardware than they probably deserved?

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Old
07-18-2016, 02:43 PM
  #26
Epsilon
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How about Bob Gainey? Basically gets an award created specifically for him to win and then takes the first 4 iterations. I'm not saying he was not necessarily a deserving winner in those years, but is it possible he largely won at least some of them via "it's the Bob Gainey award so Bob Gainey should win it", where a deeper look at the players would have revealed potentially more deserving winners?

Obviously it also helped that, given the award was basically created for him, voters were inclined to award it to "Gainey-type" players, rather than the shift it took toward higher-scoring two-way players when Gilmour and Fedorov started winning it in the early 1990s.

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07-18-2016, 02:45 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
How about Bob Gainey? Basically gets an award created specifically for him to win and then takes the first 4 iterations. I'm not saying he was not necessarily a deserving winner in those years, but is it possible he largely won at least some of them via "it's the Bob Gainey award so Bob Gainey should win it", where a deeper look at the players would have revealed potentially more deserving winners?

Obviously it also helped that, given the award was basically created for him, voters were inclined to award it to "Gainey-type" players, rather than the shift it took toward higher-scoring two-way players when Gilmour and Fedorov started winning it in the early 1990s.
Meh... one could say that he might have won a few because of the few ones he missed due to the award not existing.


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07-18-2016, 04:23 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by creg78 View Post
For the majority of his career Lidstrom was better then Pronger save for maybe 1 or 2 years. (2000 and 2001 seasons, 2001 cut short by injury)
And Bourque was better than Chelios for the majority of his career save maybe 3-4 seasons.
Bourque was a Norris finalist 15 freaking times to Chelios' 6

To say that Bourque has more than he should is absolute silliness considering he was also robbed of a Hart in '90 and he barely lost the Norris to Chelios in '96 where he lost 408-403 and had more first place votes.

If Bourque is put on this list, then Lidstrom should head the list heh.
The only reason Bourque doesn't have more is because he up against such as Chelios, Coffey and a prime Leetch on a regular basis.
Compared to Lidstrom who was up against who on a regular basis...
*Crickets*

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07-18-2016, 04:26 PM
  #29
vadim sharifijanov
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well, markus naslund has a pearson trophy that he wouldn't have gotten if they waited until the end of the season to take a vote.

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07-18-2016, 05:41 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Joedaman55 View Post
Lidstrom, Brodeur, Langway, and Messier. All of the above played at just the right time to maximize trophy count or weird voting.
I don't get your logic here. Langway, as a purely defensive D-man, peaked in the most offense-first period of NHL hockey in modern times, competing against Coffey and Bourque, yet he "played at just the right time"? Also, Messier won a Conn Smythe and later two Hart Trophies in direct "competition" with prime Gretzky and Lemieux, but he "played at just the right time"?

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Old
07-18-2016, 05:45 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
I don't get your logic here. Langway, as a purely defensive D-man, peaked in the most offense-first period of NHL hockey in modern times, competing against Coffey and Bourque, yet he "played at just the right time"? Also, Messier won a Conn Smythe and later two Hart Trophies in direct "competition" with prime Gretzky and Lemieux, but he "played at just the right time"?
Langway certainly did. He had his best (and most valuable, in terms of immediate impact on the team) seasons right after Norris trophy wins by primarily offensive defensemen that weren't in the same class defensively as the all-around stars that had preceded them. The voting climate was ripe to swing the other direction, which it clearly did.

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07-18-2016, 06:01 PM
  #32
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Before opening the thread, I felt bad for thinking Lidstrom. But he does have a lot of Norris Trophies...on merit, certainly, but seven?!?! or whatever it is...

I'm also unsure if Crosby was meant to be included on this thread or the "robbed" thread...I can't imagine any rational case for Crosby to deserve less hardware than he has...that sounds like a flimsy hypothesis...

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Old
07-18-2016, 06:15 PM
  #33
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Does Harvey still win 7 Norris trophies if Red Kelly doesn't switch positions? He was clearly the better defenseman by the time it actually happened, but if Kelly plays his whole career on defense perhaps in one of those later seasons in the early 60s he has a late flare-up, ala Chelios in 2002 and a few other examples. In 60-61 he finished ahead of Harvey in Hart trophy voting, albeit at a different position.

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07-18-2016, 07:07 PM
  #34
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Nobody said Ovechkin yet?

Amazing goal scorer but put him up against either of two hulls, or lemieux Gretzky Richard howe Bure. ..and he doesn't win them all.

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07-18-2016, 07:19 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
And Bourque was better than Chelios for the majority of his career save maybe 3-4 seasons.
Bourque was a Norris finalist 15 freaking times to Chelios' 6

To say that Bourque has more than he should is absolute silliness considering he was also robbed of a Hart in '90 and he barely lost the Norris to Chelios in '96 where he lost 408-403 and had more first place votes.

If Bourque is put on this list, then Lidstrom should head the list heh.
The only reason Bourque doesn't have more is because he up against such as Chelios, Coffey and a prime Leetch on a regular basis.
Compared to Lidstrom who was up against who on a regular basis...
*Crickets*
I watched both play, Chelios was much better, don't really care who had more Norris votes, if I did I wouldn't of said Bourque in the first place.

Bourque had the benefit of being canadian, playing on small ice and playing for a big market team, was always overrated in terms of actual defensive ability.

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07-18-2016, 07:26 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
I don't get your logic here. Langway, as a purely defensive D-man, peaked in the most offense-first period of NHL hockey in modern times, competing against Coffey and Bourque, yet he "played at just the right time"? Also, Messier won a Conn Smythe and later two Hart Trophies in direct "competition" with prime Gretzky and Lemieux, but he "played at just the right time"?
As a pure defensive D-man he played at just the right time. Voters tended to re-adjust the way they voted for Norris winners. Do you think in the more modern NHL assuming all statistics and play are the same, Langway wins two in a row with the way people vote? I don't think he wins it in 82-83 or 83-84 in the more recent Norris voting trend. Modern voters also tend to put a lot of stock in where a team finishes in the standings which would hurt him (this could be wrong). It's not definite but he caught voting at the right time in my perspective.

With Messier, 89-90 should have gone to Bourque although Messier had an awesome season (weird voting). Not arguing against Messier's other two.

My assumptions were playing at the right time or weird voting, not necessarily both occurring at the same time.

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07-18-2016, 07:26 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Does Harvey still win 7 Norris trophies if Red Kelly doesn't switch positions? He was clearly the better defenseman by the time it actually happened, but if Kelly plays his whole career on defense perhaps in one of those later seasons in the early 60s he has a late flare-up, ala Chelios in 2002 and a few other examples. In 60-61 he finished ahead of Harvey in Hart trophy voting, albeit at a different position.
Better question.

Detroit first moved Red Kelly to forward in the 1950 playoffs, game two opening round after Howe suffered a near fatal skull fracture in game one. Detroit upset the reigning Stanley Cup Champion Maple Leafs, first team to win three consecutive SCs. With Kelly playing forward the rest of the playoffs the Wings won the SC. 1950-51 with Kelly playing defence and a healthy Howe, the Wings were upset in the first round of the playoffs by the Canadiens. Leafs won their 4th SC in 5 seasons. Then with Kelly playing part of the season at forward, mainly on defence, the Wings won 3 out of the next 4 SCs and Kelly won a Norris.

What happens if the Wings keep Kelly at forward, mainly center like he played with Toronto? Do any of the other five teams have the strength down the middle thru the 1950s that matches first, Abel/Delveccchio/Kelly then Delvecchio/Kelly/Reibel then Delvecchio/Kelly/Ullman ? Is Kelly's one Norris replaced by other hardware?

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07-18-2016, 08:00 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by bobholly39 View Post
Nobody said Ovechkin yet?
Oh, for sure. Yeah, he's winning Rocket Richard Trophies more consistently than he did from 2006-2011, but his assist numbers are plummeting. 50 goals but only 6 first assists? How did he even get Hart votes?

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07-18-2016, 08:24 PM
  #39
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I think we can all agree Ovechkin has at least one more All-Star Team placement than he deserves.

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07-18-2016, 08:52 PM
  #40
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Based on modern award distribution trends, I would expect Eddie Shore to have four fewer Hart trophies

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07-18-2016, 10:18 PM
  #41
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Ovechkin's last hart was mindboggling to me. Not much of a fan of Messier's 92 Hart, either (I remember Leetch as the Rangers best player around that time), though I liked that season better than OV's 2013.

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07-18-2016, 10:33 PM
  #42
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I think Lidstrom retired with at least 1 too many Norris trophies. His final trophy win was a joke, the voters basically used the award as a going-away present or life-time achievement award. His stats that season were not Norris worthy in the slightest.

Jose Theodore won a Hart trophy. So I nominate him as well.

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07-18-2016, 10:52 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by JaegerDice View Post
Jose Theodore won a Hart trophy. So I nominate him as well.
Was that so bad?

Jose Theodore: 30-24-10, .931 (.931 ES); Team GF: 207
Patrick Roy: 32-23-8, .925 (.934 ES); Team GF: 212
Sean Burke: 33-21-6, .920 (.930 ES); Team GF: 228

Jarome Iginla: 82 GP, 52-44-96, +27
Markus Naslund: 81 GP, 40-50-90, +22

Obviously it was as close as a race could get with Theodore taking tie-breaker wins for both the Hart and the Vezina trophies while coming up short for the 1st Team selection and not being among the three Pearson nominees. But they all deserved credit for their great seasons, and all five walked away with some pretty solid recognition for jobs well done.

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07-19-2016, 07:09 AM
  #44
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I think Lidstrom retired with at least 1 too many Norris trophies. His final trophy win was a joke, the voters basically used the award as a going-away present or life-time achievement award. His stats that season were not Norris worthy in the slightest.

Jose Theodore won a Hart trophy. So I nominate him as well.
Out of all the hart winners in history Theodore may very well be one of the (or the #1) players with the weakest overall careers. No question. But that doesn't mean that in that specific year he wasn't worthy of the award because I think he certainly was.

I remember following that team in 2001 and in the last 30 games or so it felt like he played like superman. He didnt allow a SINGLE bad goal it seemed. At most he'd let in 1 goal per game but usually always on a crazy, crazy play. His level of play was insane imo. Just an "eyetest" testimonial but I remember being extremely impressed at the time.

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07-19-2016, 07:25 AM
  #45
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Theodore's Hart is bogus not because of his play, but because of the writer that didn't give Iginla a Top 3 vote causing the tie (which Jose won w/ first place votes).

Jose wasn't underserving of the award, but it's ******** Iginla lost that year because of that.

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07-19-2016, 07:26 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by bobholly39 View Post
Nobody said Ovechkin yet?

Amazing goal scorer but put him up against either of two hulls, or lemieux Gretzky Richard howe Bure. ..and he doesn't win them all.
What? This is absurd. He would beat Bure and Brett more than they beat him. Much, much more. Could say the same about Richard in the regular season and probably Howe too.

Also, that's like saying Jagr has too many Art Ross's, put him up against prime Gretzky, Howe, Mikita and Lemieux and he doesn't win them all.

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07-19-2016, 07:34 AM
  #47
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What? This is absurd. He would beat Bure and Brett more than they beat him. Much, much more. Could say the same about Richard in the regular season and probably Howe too.

Also, that's like saying Jagr has too many Art Ross's, put him up against prime Gretzky, Howe, Mikita and Lemieux and he doesn't win them all.
I'm not saying Ovechkin isn't great, i'm just saying he's winning the Rocket every year now and pretty easily. His competition at goal scoring is pretty weak.

Look at two years ago...he started slow...then started scoring and next thing u know he wins, easily, and by a lot. Same thing last year.

I think if Bret Hull, or Bobby Hull, or Bure, or Lemieux, or Gretzky or Richard or Howe were playing they too would be capable of scoring 50+ goals in current day NHL. He has no one like that to compete against.

Stamkos seems to have regressed/slowed and no one else has shown an ability to score as much.

Don't you think any of those players I mentioned if they were in their prime would be competing against Ovi for many of his rocker trophies? I'm sure Ovi still wins a lot of rockets but he certainly wouldn't win them ALL going against any of those guys. I think easier competition has helped him. And short of McDavid expoding at goal-scoring - I can easily see Ovi adding 2-3 more Rockets in the next 3 years.

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07-19-2016, 07:42 AM
  #48
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I'm not saying Ovechkin isn't great, i'm just saying he's winning the Rocket every year now and pretty easily. His competition at goal scoring is pretty weak.

Look at two years ago...he started slow...then started scoring and next thing u know he wins, easily, and by a lot. Same thing last year.

I think if Bret Hull, or Bobby Hull, or Bure, or Lemieux, or Gretzky or Richard or Howe were playing they too would be capable of scoring 50+ goals in current day NHL. He has no one like that to compete against.

Stamkos seems to have regressed/slowed and no one else has shown an ability to score as much.

Don't you think any of those players I mentioned if they were in their prime would be competing against Ovi for many of his rocker trophies? I'm sure Ovi still wins a lot of rockets but he certainly wouldn't win them ALL going against any of those guys. I think easier competition has helped him. And short of McDavid expoding at goal-scoring - I can easily see Ovi adding 2-3 more Rockets in the next 3 years.
I get it, but you are effectively taking 7 different goal-scoring greats spanning over 7 different decades. Which goal-scorer has ever faced competition that hard? I get your premise, but it makes basically no sense. Sure, if you take 7 of the top-20 goals corers ever (and 4 of them are arguably top-5 ever) and slot them against Ovechkin, yeah he wouldn't win that much. By that logic, every single offensive player would retire with less. Crosby would have no Rockets and Art Ross trophies if he competed against those guys. Jagr would be lucky to have 1 Art Ross. Etc. etc.

Maybe the goal-scoring competition is weakish now, but it hasn't been the case throughout Ovechkin's career.

Edit: Ahh, now I get it. Maybe slot in one only. Yeah, that's probably true. But how may Rockets (or retro rockets) would any of those players have if Ovechkin was against them? If we are talking about counting trophies, it really skews the playing field if we start artificially brining other greats in to the discussion. In the debate over "who deserves or not", it doesn't really make sense to me.


Last edited by Plural: 07-19-2016 at 07:48 AM.
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Old
07-19-2016, 07:43 AM
  #49
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Theodore's Hart is bogus not because of his play, but because of the writer that didn't give Iginla a Top 3 vote causing the tie (which Jose won w/ first place votes).

Jose wasn't underserving of the award, but it's ******** Iginla lost that year because of that.
....That's a myth that seriously deserves to die a painful death and/or be censored on the spot due to egregious Calgary-based misinformation.

Iginla had more Top-3 votes than Theodore. By that reasoning, Iginla's Hart would've been even more tainted than Theodore's, so it's probably a good thing Theodore's the one with the title in the end.

But... Don't let the facts ruin a narrative!

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Old
07-19-2016, 08:11 AM
  #50
Epsilon
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If anything, Iginla would be a good answer to this thread if he had won that Hart trophy. It would have basically been a double Art Ross - how often does a player win the Hart playing for an 11th place (out of 15) team that was nowhere close to the playoffs and who spent the last few weeks of the season focused on pumping up that player's stats?

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