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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Who retired with MORE hardware than they probably deserved?

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Old
07-19-2016, 08:26 AM
  #51
MXD
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Originally Posted by bobholly39 View Post
Out of all the hart winners in history Theodore may very well be one of the (or the #1) players with the weakest overall careers. No question. But that doesn't mean that in that specific year he wasn't worthy of the award because I think he certainly was.

I remember following that team in 2001 and in the last 30 games or so it felt like he played like superman. He didnt allow a SINGLE bad goal it seemed. At most he'd let in 1 goal per game but usually always on a crazy, crazy play. His level of play was insane imo. Just an "eyetest" testimonial but I remember being extremely impressed at the time.
Actually, just leading to the playoffs a team whose first center would have been a 3rd liner in... say... Calgary, and for whom Patrice Brisebois had basically no choice to play 24 minutes a night, should've been enough.

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Old
07-19-2016, 08:50 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Edit: Ahh, now I get it. Maybe slot in one only. Yeah, that's probably true. But how may Rockets (or retro rockets) would any of those players have if Ovechkin was against them? If we are talking about counting trophies, it really skews the playing field if we start artificially brining other greats in to the discussion. In the debate over "who deserves or not", it doesn't really make sense to me.
Exactly, yes.

Hull faced Lemieux, Gretzky faced Lemieux/Bossy, Bure faced Lemieux, Howe vs Richard...

Ovechkin's consistency is commendable and the greatest consistency at goal-scoring probably in hockey history (not sure his peak or height of prime #1 all time, but consistency he might be). But if he faced tougher competition he likely loses out on 1-2 more rockets easily.

And he's not even done. Who in the next 3 years will challenge him?

Stamkos could have a resurgence. Maybe/maybe not. If so, he's a threat.
Is McDavid going to win Rockets? Not sure if he's more about goal scoring or points or if he'll do both, but if so then he's a threat.

Anyone else? I don't know if Tarasenko will score quite that many goals.

Ovi can keep having ~70 point seasons but with 45-50 goals and win rockets every year for the foreseeable future. He might finish with 10 rockets.

Insane consistency - but weak competition.

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Old
07-19-2016, 08:55 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by bobholly39 View Post
Exactly, yes.

Hull faced Lemieux, Gretzky faced Lemieux/Bossy, Bure faced Lemieux, Howe vs Richard...

Ovechkin's consistency is commendable and the greatest consistency at goal-scoring probably in hockey history (not sure his peak or height of prime #1 all time, but consistency he might be). But if he faced tougher competition he likely loses out on 1-2 more rockets easily.

And he's not even done. Who in the next 3 years will challenge him?

Stamkos could have a resurgence. Maybe/maybe not. If so, he's a threat.
Is McDavid going to win Rockets? Not sure if he's more about goal scoring or points or if he'll do both, but if so then he's a threat.

Anyone else? I don't know if Tarasenko will score quite that many goals.

Ovi can keep having ~70 point seasons but with 45-50 goals and win rockets every year for the foreseeable future. He might finish with 10 rockets.

Insane consistency - but weak competition.
Neither Bure nor Lemieux ever cost each other an award, so that one at least is pretty irrelevant.

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Old
07-19-2016, 10:00 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
If anything, Iginla would be a good answer to this thread if he had won that Hart trophy. It would have basically been a double Art Ross - how often does a player win the Hart playing for an 11th place (out of 15) team that was nowhere close to the playoffs and who spent the last few weeks of the season focused on pumping up that player's stats?
It's not uncommon for Art Ross winners on non-playoff teams to get very little support for the Hart trophy.

In 1994, Gretzky didn't get a single vote. In 2013, St. Louis was only named on 13 out of 179 ballots (with just one of those votes being in the top three). In 2015, Benn was only named on 13 out of 157 ballots (no votes in the top three).

Yes, there are exceptions (Lemieux in 1988 being the most notable), but the general trend is Art Ross winners on non-playoff teams have trouble getting support for the Hart trophy. The fact that Iginla very nearly won shows that he fared much better than other players in similar situations.

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Old
07-19-2016, 10:07 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post

Yes, there are exceptions (Lemieux in 1988 being the most notable), but the general trend is Art Ross winners on non-playoff teams have trouble getting support for the Hart trophy. The fact that Iginla very nearly won shows that he fared much better than other players in similar situations.
...Which is partly explained by the fact that season was also a bit of a low-point for forwards? I can't think a single year for which 3 of the Top-4 in Hart voting were goalies.

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Old
07-19-2016, 10:13 AM
  #56
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Also funny about Iginla, and pointing at a general feeling of undeserved support : his Lady Bing record is surprisingly strong, and there doesn't seem to be any kind of correlation between his Lady Bing voting record and him PIM totals in any given year.

There's no problem with Iginla getting Lady Bing support with 37 PIMs, but with +80?

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07-19-2016, 10:32 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Also funny about Iginla, and pointing at a general feeling of undeserved support : his Lady Bing record is surprisingly strong, and there doesn't seem to be any kind of correlation between his Lady Bing voting record and him PIM totals in any given year.

There's no problem with Iginla getting Lady Bing support with 37 PIMs, but with +80?
My bigger issue would be rewarding someone who's such a bad loser (and would frequently get cheap towards the end of bad losses) with an award for sportsmanship and gentlemanly play.

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Old
07-19-2016, 10:34 AM
  #58
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...Which is partly explained by the fact that season was also a bit of a low-point for forwards? I can't think a single year for which 3 of the Top-4 in Hart voting were goalies.
1994 had three in the top-5. Closest I could think of off the top of my head. I think in the case of Iginla, having such a good plus-minus on a bad team helped. I also think there was less of a stigma then than there is now about the playoff thing.

EDIT: Also Montreal (87 points) would be 8 points out of the playoffs in the Western Conference before we take strength of schedule into consideration.

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Old
07-19-2016, 11:00 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Neither Bure nor Lemieux ever cost each other an award, so that one at least is pretty irrelevant.
In goal scoring neither did Lemieux\Gretzky or Lemieux\Brett Hull.

Both Howe and Richard did lose two goal scoring titles because of each other.

Esposito lost once to Hull.

Hull lost to Esposito once (probably twice, 1970-71).

Brett Hull lost once to Bure.

Bossy lost once to Gretzky (probably thrice, 1984-85 and 1985-86)




So if we give all of them full credit:


Player#
Bobby Hull9
Esposito7
Richard7
Howe7
Ovechkin6
Gretzky5
Bossy5
Conacher5
Brett Hull4

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Old
07-19-2016, 11:12 AM
  #60
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Ovechkin

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07-19-2016, 11:31 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
1994 had three in the top-5. Closest I could think of off the top of my head. I think in the case of Iginla, having such a good plus-minus on a bad team helped. I also think there was less of a stigma then than there is now about the playoff thing.

EDIT: Also Montreal (87 points) would be 8 points out of the playoffs in the Western Conference before we take strength of schedule into consideration.
I don't even know how Montreal managed to finish better than 28th to be honest

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Old
07-19-2016, 11:59 AM
  #62
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Surprised nobody mentioned Barrett Jackman.

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Old
07-19-2016, 12:37 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by 67Leafs67 View Post
Really, Sid? Sure he got that one Conn Smythe that he probably didn't deserve, but he also missed out on at least two Hart Trophies (2011, 2013, maybe even 2012 the way he was playing), and Art Ross Trophies that he certainly deserved because of injuries.
The beauty of the Art Ross (or Rocket) is that it's cut and dry. Crosby didn't deserve the Ross if he didn't get the most points. Injuries happen.

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Old
07-19-2016, 04:17 PM
  #64
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I watched both play, Chelios was much better, don't really care who had more Norris votes, if I did I wouldn't of said Bourque in the first place.
You and I obviously watched 2 different players and getting robbed of the Hart alone disqualifies Bourque from this thread right off the bat.

Quote:
Bourque had the benefit of being canadian, playing on small ice and playing for a big market team, was always overrated in terms of actual defensive ability.
You know that Chelios played for Montreal, Chicago and Detroit right?
You of course also knew that the old Chicago stadium was also smaller than average ice just like Boston right?

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Old
07-19-2016, 04:35 PM
  #65
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the only norris lidstrom didn't deserve was his last

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07-19-2016, 05:06 PM
  #66
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the only norris lidstrom didn't deserve was his last
Additionally, he deserved it in 98.

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Old
07-19-2016, 05:06 PM
  #67
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Surprised nobody mentioned Barrett Jackman.
He was the correct choice.

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Old
07-19-2016, 05:49 PM
  #68
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Lidstrom, weak era for defencemen when he won most of his Norris'

Brodeur as well. 2003 & 2004 Turco was just as deserving for the Vezina (Luongo in 2004 as well), Luongo was better in 2007, and even in 2008 Nabby was just as good if not better. (Not saying he should have won 0, but I think he shouldn't of won in 2007 or 2003)


Last edited by Voight: 07-19-2016 at 05:55 PM.
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07-19-2016, 05:57 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Joedaman55 View Post

Edit: Add Ovechkin as a recent example.
Explain pls?

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07-19-2016, 06:29 PM
  #70
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the only norris lidstrom didn't deserve was his last
I'm really not a fan of his 2001 and 2002 Norris Trophy wins either.

1998 Pronger, +47 (20th ranked SPCT)
1999 MacInnis, +33 (28th ranked SPCT)
2000 Pronger, +52 (6th ranked SPCT)
2001 Lidstrom, +9 (7th ranked SPCT)
2001 Stevens, +40 (15th ranked SPCT)
2002 Lidstrom, +13 (7th ranked SPCT)
2003 Lidstrom, +40 (6th ranked SPCT)

Other #1 defensemen in the era were on the ice for massive GF/GA disparities while serving in the same role as Lidstrom - including Lidstrom himself. +9 and +13 on a team as offensively gifted as the Detroit Red Wings while getting 7th ranked goaltending is just... not great. Like the kind of not great that turns into minuses if you're playing on teams that don't finish with 110+ points in the standings.

I think on a middle of the pack team, those might be unheralded seasons - kind of like Pronger's first year in both Edmonton and Philadelphia. But like I said, I think some teams make it really hard to even look like you're having a down year, whereas on other teams, you might have to play out of your mind just to appear decent.

It's enough to already be one of the best defensemen to ever play the game, but being the #1 guy on Detroit makes it nearly impossible to even fall off the ballot. It'd be like if the Islanders or Canadiens could keep the party going when Potvin and Robinson hit their 30s. A can't-miss situation - and even then, he did in 2004 because their top-line offense dried up for once.


But as much as every one is piling on Lidstrom and Brodeur, they're top-40 players.

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07-20-2016, 01:07 AM
  #71
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If anything, Ovechkin could have even more hardware than he currently has if he played a few more games in 2009 and 2010.

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07-20-2016, 04:03 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by BackToTheBasics View Post
If anything, Ovechkin could have even more hardware than he currently has if he played a few more games in 2009 and 2010.
Let's be honest though, he has no one but himself to blame for 2010. If I remember correctly, he served a couple suspensions that year.

Had he not made some stupid decisions on ice, he would probably have taken the Art Ross and Rocket, being three points behind Henrik and one goal behind Sid/Stamkos in 10 fewer games.

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Old
07-20-2016, 04:38 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I'm really not a fan of his 2001 and 2002 Norris Trophy wins either.

1998 Pronger, +47 (20th ranked SPCT)
1999 MacInnis, +33 (28th ranked SPCT)
2000 Pronger, +52 (6th ranked SPCT)
2001 Lidstrom, +9 (7th ranked SPCT)
2001 Stevens, +40 (15th ranked SPCT)
2002 Lidstrom, +13 (7th ranked SPCT)
2003 Lidstrom, +40 (6th ranked SPCT)

Other #1 defensemen in the era were on the ice for massive GF/GA disparities while serving in the same role as Lidstrom - including Lidstrom himself. +9 and +13 on a team as offensively gifted as the Detroit Red Wings while getting 7th ranked goaltending is just... not great. Like the kind of not great that turns into minuses if you're playing on teams that don't finish with 110+ points in the standings.

I think on a middle of the pack team, those might be unheralded seasons - kind of like Pronger's first year in both Edmonton and Philadelphia. But like I said, I think some teams make it really hard to even look like you're having a down year, whereas on other teams, you might have to play out of your mind just to appear decent.

It's enough to already be one of the best defensemen to ever play the game, but being the #1 guy on Detroit makes it nearly impossible to even fall off the ballot. It'd be like if the Islanders or Canadiens could keep the party going when Potvin and Robinson hit their 30s. A can't-miss situation - and even then, he did in 2004 because their top-line offense dried up for once.


But as much as every one is piling on Lidstrom and Brodeur, they're top-40 players.
Interesting post. The counter argument is, how much did Lidstrom's play contribute to the high SV% for the Wings that year? By means of limited shots to low-quality chances when he was on the ice.

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Old
07-20-2016, 04:50 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by bobholly39 View Post
Nobody said Ovechkin yet?

Amazing goal scorer but put him up against either of two hulls, or lemieux Gretzky Richard howe Bure. ..and he doesn't win them all.
Is it how it works tho? With that same logic, I'd say every forward in history other than Gretzky doesn't deserve any of their trophies, since if you wwere to put him up against Gretzky, he wouldn't win them all. It doesn't make sense.

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Old
07-20-2016, 04:54 PM
  #75
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Oh, for sure. Yeah, he's winning Rocket Richard Trophies more consistently than he did from 2006-2011, but his assist numbers are plummeting. 50 goals but only 6 first assists? How did he even get Hart votes?
If anything, him having that many goals and very little assists only shows how little support Ovy gets on the goal scoring aspect, which reinforce his position as a Hart candidate. It's supposed to be the MVP trophy, not the "who have the most points this year" trophy.

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