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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Who retired with MORE hardware than they probably deserved?

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Old
07-20-2016, 05:33 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Shawked View Post
Explain pls?
Post 2013 Ovechkin has been pretty weak competition for the Rocket trophy after Stamkos fell off. The lack of elite competition has lead to Ovechkin getting more Rockets but not having to playing against Gretzky, Lemieux, Bossy, Hull, Bure or other caliber goal scorers at this level.

Also, Ovechkin's 2012-13 Hart was extremely weak compared to other Hart seasons, he benefitted from Crosby getting hurt and there not being any other serious competition. I'd still say he deserved this Hart over the competition but compared to other Hart winners, it's one of the weaker ones. Voters tend to vote on the Hart by team success which made the selection surprising.

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07-20-2016, 06:09 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Joedaman55 View Post
Post 2013 Ovechkin has been pretty weak competition for the Rocket trophy after Stamkos fell off. The lack of elite competition has lead to Ovechkin getting more Rockets but not having to playing against Gretzky, Lemieux, Bossy, Hull, Bure or other caliber goal scorers at this level.
In his case, it just means a bigger gap.

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07-20-2016, 06:46 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
In his case, it just means a bigger gap.
Maybe, maybe not. Top end elite goal scorers have years that no one can match. I think if Gretzky, Lemieux, Ovechkin, Bure, and say Brett Hull all had there best goal scoring years in one year I'd say Gretzky wins but the probability of this all occurring at once is less than .00001% (5%^4) but there would be one less trophy for all of them but Gretzky. Besides Stamkos, Ovechkin hasn't faced any serious, elite goal scoring competition year in and year out (everyones been fluctuating a lot in recent years besides Ovechkin). Had there been someone there with that ability he could have one or two less.

Historically, Ovechkin is in a real good point in history when it comes to accumulating trophies given where he is at in his career. I think it's helping his legacy as well, especially when people discuss where he stands all time as a goal scorer.

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07-20-2016, 09:20 PM
  #79
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I think in Ovechkin's case it's not so much that he's winning these trophies as it is the fact that he is the only player in such a low scoring era that is able to consistently have seasons like this. I believe it speaks more to the difficulty of scoring than the talent of his competition.

Systems are tight, the game is fast and the goalies are bloated. Ovechkin being able to continue posting big goal totals to me suggests that he is that damn good and deserves most if not all of his hardware.

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07-20-2016, 10:21 PM
  #80
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Delete all the Hall of Famers in front of Bure in goals and he wins...0 additional Richard trophies/goal scoring titles.

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07-21-2016, 07:18 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Does Harvey still win 7 Norris trophies if Red Kelly doesn't switch positions? He was clearly the better defenseman by the time it actually happened, but if Kelly plays his whole career on defense perhaps in one of those later seasons in the early 60s he has a late flare-up, ala Chelios in 2002 and a few other examples. In 60-61 he finished ahead of Harvey in Hart trophy voting, albeit at a different position.
I would say yes, but obviously we can't predict whether Kelly would have a late flare-up and how great that flare-up would be.Here's the record for Harvey's three last Norris Trophies:

59-60
NORRIS: (324/324, 144-153)
1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 129 (66-63)
2. Allan Stanley, Tor 42 (15-27)
3. Marcel Pronovost, Det 39 (19-20)
4. Pierre Pilote, Chi 33 (6-27)
5. Tom Johnson, Mtl 32 (18-14)
6. Bill Gadsby, NYR 22 (20-2)
7. Bob Armstrong, Bos 12
8. Doug Mohns, Bos 8
9. Carl Brewer, Tor 5
T10. Tim Horton, Tor 1
T10. Elmer Vasko, Chi 1

60-61
NORRIS: (324/324, 139-141)
1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 162 (84-78)
2. Marcel Pronovost, Det 52 (33-19)
3. Allan Stanley, Tor 27 (7-20)
4. Pierre Pilote, Chi 24 (5-19)
5. Leo Boivin, Bos 15 (10-5)
T6. Tim Horton, Tor 9
T6. Carl Brewer, Tor 9
T6. Pete Goegan, Det 9
9. Elmer Vasko, Chi 5
T10. Doug Mohns, Bos 4
T10. Bill Gadsby, NYR 4
12. Jack Evens, Chi 3
13. Harry Howell, NYR 1

61-62
NORRIS: (324/324, 133-132)
1. Doug Harvey, NYR 102 (83-19)
2. Pierre Pilote, Chi 47 (2-45)
3. Jean-Guy Talbot, Mtl 46 (13-33)
4. Carl Brewer, Tor 41 (12-29)
T5. Doug Mohns, Bos 15
T5. Jack Evans, Chi 15 (10-5)
T5. Tim Horton, Tor 15
8. Allan Stanley, Tor 14 (13-1)
9. Harry Howell, NYR 9
10. Leo Boivin, Bos 7
T11. Marcel Pronovost, Det 5
T11. Tom Johnson, Mtl 5
13. Elmer Vasko, Chi 3

Harvey dominated the field, especially in the first two seasons mentioned above (though he finished 2nd in Hart voting in the last while in NYR).In the third, Pierre Pilote was starting to make a push at the top already, and he won the next three Norris trophies.Kelly would have needed to outcompete a guy who was dominating the field and had both an individual and team (dynasty) reputational momentum going on for him.Also, while Kelly finished higher in Hart voting in 60-61, Harvey really dominated the Norris field that year (albeit a weak field), so it's hard to say if that would followed if Kelly played defense.

Overall, I give the benefit of the doubt to Harvey to win those three Norris.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 07-21-2016 at 07:48 AM.
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Old
07-21-2016, 07:51 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by bobholly39 View Post
Out of all the hart winners in history Theodore may very well be one of the (or the #1) players with the weakest overall careers. No question. But that doesn't mean that in that specific year he wasn't worthy of the award because I think he certainly was.

I remember following that team in 2001 and in the last 30 games or so it felt like he played like superman. He didnt allow a SINGLE bad goal it seemed. At most he'd let in 1 goal per game but usually always on a crazy, crazy play. His level of play was insane imo. Just an "eyetest" testimonial but I remember being extremely impressed at the time.
Agreed, Théodore was insanely good that season, a bit like Price in 2014-2015.

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07-21-2016, 07:53 AM
  #83
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I hate to mention his name, but Martin St. Louis won two Art Ross trophies.That's a lot for a player of his caliber.A superb and underrated player for sure, but maybe not a multiple Art Ross level player.

I feel dirty just mentioning him as I think he's underrated.

Edit: Maybe St. Louis doesn't fit the OP's rules.He deserved those trophies.He didn't stole them.But the context was certainly in his favor both times.

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07-21-2016, 10:47 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I hate to mention his name, but Martin St. Louis won two Art Ross trophies.That's a lot for a player of his caliber.A superb and underrated player for sure, but maybe not a multiple Art Ross level player.

I feel dirty just mentioning him as I think he's underrated.

Edit: Maybe St. Louis doesn't fit the OP's rules.He deserved those trophies.He didn't stole them.But the context was certainly in his favor both times.
If anything, it's a bit of an Ovechkin situation, in that one could say that the amount of a specific award won (in his case, the Art Ross) might be higher than it should be due to various reasons (namely, elite players missing games in a short season (2013), or not exactly the high point in the quality of forwards (2004)).

But I suspect time will be kind to St-Louis, because there's quite a significant amount of players who had their best time with him.

EDIT : It's obviously not something I can attest to for every case, but there are actually weaker players than MSL with 2 Art Ross (or two league-leads in scoring).


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Old
07-21-2016, 11:04 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Joedaman55 View Post
Maybe, maybe not. Top end elite goal scorers have years that no one can match. I think if Gretzky, Lemieux, Ovechkin, Bure, and say Brett Hull all had there best goal scoring years in one year I'd say Gretzky wins but the probability of this all occurring at once is less than .00001% (5%^4) but there would be one less trophy for all of them but Gretzky. Besides Stamkos, Ovechkin hasn't faced any serious, elite goal scoring competition year in and year out (everyones been fluctuating a lot in recent years besides Ovechkin). Had there been someone there with that ability he could have one or two less.
Both Brett Hull and Pavel Bure have less Top-5 goal finishes than Ovechkin has Rocket Awards. Hell, Bure has less relevant goalscoring seasons than Ovechkin has Rocket Awards.

Of course, AO playing simultaneously with prime Mario Lemieux or prime Gretzky would probably have changed everything... but with regards, you can say that of any player not named Lemieux or Gretzky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Delete all the Hall of Famers in front of Bure in goals and he wins...0 additional Richard trophies/goal scoring titles.
...Amongst other things.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenJagrt View Post
I think in Ovechkin's case it's not so much that he's winning these trophies as it is the fact that he is the only player in such a low scoring era that is able to consistently have seasons like this. I believe it speaks more to the difficulty of scoring than the talent of his competition.

Systems are tight, the game is fast and the goalies are bloated. Ovechkin being able to continue posting big goal totals to me suggests that he is that damn good and deserves most if not all of his hardware.
Despite what I said earlier, I think there's a valid argument to be made that AO isn't facing great competition for goalscoring. Kane wasn't that far from AO last season, but I think it's safe to say that :

- Last season was a bit of an outlier for Kane.
- Last season was a goalscoring outlier for Kane.
- Kane isn't what we commonly perceive as a goalscorer.

I mean, apples to oranges, but Peter Stastny could have scored 60 goals (or close to it) if he had the outlier Kane just had. But he never did, and a bit like Kane, 60 goals (then) wouldn't have been enough to lead the league (because 99, Bossy), but would probably have sufficed for 2nd in points (again, because 99), and quite comfortably, too.

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Old
07-21-2016, 02:27 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I hate to mention his name, but Martin St. Louis won two Art Ross trophies.That's a lot for a player of his caliber.A superb and underrated player for sure, but maybe not a multiple Art Ross level player.

I feel dirty just mentioning him as I think he's underrated.

Edit: Maybe St. Louis doesn't fit the OP's rules.He deserved those trophies.He didn't stole them.But the context was certainly in his favor both times.
St Louis is a good example as well; didn't initially think of him but I would definitely add him.

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07-21-2016, 02:33 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Both Brett Hull and Pavel Bure have less Top-5 goal finishes than Ovechkin has Rocket Awards. Hell, Bure has less relevant goalscoring seasons than Ovechkin has Rocket Awards.

Of course, AO playing simultaneously with prime Mario Lemieux or prime Gretzky would probably have changed everything... but with regards, you can say that of any player not named Lemieux or Gretzky.
I agree with all of that. The way I'm looking at is that the current competition since 2013 for the Rocket is weaker than most years within the last 25 years. The weaker competition adds probably one extra Rocket trophy for an Ovechkin out of his Peak.

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07-21-2016, 05:25 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
But I suspect time will be kind to St-Louis, because there's quite a significant amount of players who had their best time with him.
The ATD community is already pretty kind to him for what it's worth.St. Louis is a late-bloomer who was a very consistant high offensive producer and a strong playmaking winger which is a rarity and a sign of quality as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:
EDIT : It's obviously not something I can attest to for every case, but there are actually weaker players than MSL with 2 Art Ross (or two league-leads in scoring).
Here's the quick list of two-times NHL scoring leaders from Wikipedia:

Max Bentley
Charlie Conacher
Bill Cook
Babe Dye
Newsy Lalonde
Joe Malone
Howie Morenz
Sweeney Schriner
-
Sidney Crosby
Phil Esposito
Bernard Geoffrion
Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Bobby Hull
Jaromir Jagr
Guy Lafleur
Mario Lemieux
Evgeni Malkin
Stan Mikita
Dickie Moore
Bobby Orr
Martin St. Louis

Out of those, Babe Dye and Sweeney Schriner are obviously weaker.Evgeni Malkin isn't done yet, I expect him to surpass St. Louis in importance as a player.I see Max Bentley and Joe Malone as superior, but maybe someone would argue otherwise.

The rest is better.

So you were right.

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07-21-2016, 05:32 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by FrozenJagrt View Post
Let's be honest though, he has no one but himself to blame for 2010. If I remember correctly, he served a couple suspensions that year.

Had he not made some stupid decisions on ice, he would probably have taken the Art Ross and Rocket, being three points behind Henrik and one goal behind Sid/Stamkos in 10 fewer games.
He missed four games because of that, but also missed IIRC two or three to attend his grandfathers funeral in Russia. So if his grandfather hadn't died, then he more than likely would have won the Art Ross/Richard and possibly Hart even with the suspensions.

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07-21-2016, 05:34 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by bobholly39 View Post
Nobody said Ovechkin yet?

Amazing goal scorer but put him up against either of two hulls, or lemieux Gretzky Richard howe Bure. ..and he doesn't win them all.
Its been stated already but he would have been just fine going head to end with Bure & Brett.

As for the others.... you can say that about pretty much any player.

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07-21-2016, 05:53 PM
  #91
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He missed four games because of that, but also missed IIRC two or three to attend his grandfathers funeral in Russia. So if his grandfather hadn't died, then he more than likely would have won the Art Ross/Richard and possibly Hart even with the suspensions.
Maybe I'm misremembering things, but I seem to recall the non-suspension games he missed were due to an injury he sustained going for a reckless hit.

That might be off-base, but for whatever reason I recall a distinct vibe that Ovechkin's games missed in that season were "his own fault".

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07-21-2016, 06:40 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
The ATD community is already pretty kind to him for what it's worth.St. Louis is a late-bloomer who was a very consistant high offensive producer and a strong playmaking winger which is a rarity and a sign of quality as far as I'm concerned.



Here's the quick list of two-times NHL scoring leaders from Wikipedia:

Max Bentley
Charlie Conacher
Bill Cook
Babe Dye
Newsy Lalonde
Joe Malone
Howie Morenz
Sweeney Schriner
-
Sidney Crosby
Phil Esposito
Bernard Geoffrion
Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Bobby Hull
Jaromir Jagr
Guy Lafleur
Mario Lemieux
Evgeni Malkin
Stan Mikita
Dickie Moore
Bobby Orr
Martin St. Louis

Out of those, Babe Dye and Sweeney Schriner are obviously weaker.Evgeni Malkin isn't done yet, I expect him to surpass St. Louis in importance as a player.I see Max Bentley and Joe Malone as superior, but maybe someone would argue otherwise.

The rest is better.

So you were right.
Malkin surpassed st.louis LONG time ago

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07-21-2016, 06:49 PM
  #93
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Malkin surpassed st.louis LONG time ago
When? The last time Malkin landed on any ballot during awards season, it was book-ended by St. Louis' 1st place and 2nd place scoring finishes.

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07-21-2016, 07:23 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
When? The last time Malkin landed on any ballot during awards season, it was book-ended by St. Louis' 1st place and 2nd place scoring finishes.
To be fair to Malkin, he has the 3rd highest PPG in the last four years, the 3rd highest PPG in the last three years, the 5th highest PPG in the last two years and had the 5th highest last year.

He also added three decent playoffs in the last four years.

So he did add to his resume (if only as longevity as a top player based on what I just said), but not as much as we would like.

Edit: I'm not suggesting this is enough to pass St.Louis, I haven't really looked at the comparison.On memory St.Louis is still higher.I just thought Malkin has been forgotten lately due to his injuries.Those PPG stats indicate he's still a top player.


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07-22-2016, 04:18 AM
  #95
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And, well, the same could be said for Bourque and Chelios, mind you.

I mean, Chelios is an absolute all-time great who is probably the G Penalty Killer OAT.

But Raymond Bourque he was not.
But you got to love Chris Chelios though, and not deny him Norris wins. He was a real brutal player in the good sense, overall very good defensively, with almost elite offence as well. Great leader, cult longivety, american trailblazer, and a right hand shot. I say this even though his personality on a private level certainly only can be explained as typically Chicago-greek-american-ish. Which is also like his on ice game, rough. Still a nice guy in a way, which is why i am amongst the first to sign up for his fan mail.


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07-22-2016, 07:12 AM
  #96
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I can totally see Malkin not passing St-Louis, ever. I wouldn't bet on this, but I can see it.

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07-22-2016, 11:33 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
When? The last time Malkin landed on any ballot during awards season, it was book-ended by St. Louis' 1st place and 2nd place scoring finishes.
Malkin swept all the awards in 11-12 with a season much greater than st.louis ever had

In 08-09 he became the first player since lemieux to sweep both the reg and playoff scoring titles directly against a prime crosby and ovechkin

36 point playoff one of the greatest in history

Malkin>St.louis

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07-22-2016, 11:41 AM
  #98
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Malkin swept all the awards in 11-12 with a season much greater than st.louis ever had
You know St. Louis did that in 2003-04 too, right? He even led the league in plus-minus and won the Stanley Cup.

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07-22-2016, 11:43 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
You know St. Louis did that in 2003-04 too, right? He even led the league in plus-minus and won the Stanley Cup.
Malkin was much better. Seriously it's not close. Malkin at his peak is every bit as good as crosby and ovechkin. Can you say the same about st.louis?

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07-22-2016, 12:34 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Ageless66 View Post
Malkin was much better. Seriously it's not close. Malkin at his peak is every bit as good as crosby and ovechkin. Can you say the same about st.louis?
Malkin was better than St Louis at his peak but it is close. If you put more weight on winning it all in the playoffs, I could definitely see a case for St. Louis. If people are looking at St. Louis this way, he may be one of the more underrated players on the board.

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