HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Who retired with MORE hardware than they probably deserved?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-22-2016, 12:50 PM
  #101
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 32,292
vCash: 500
The best case for St-Louis is that that's now quite a lot of players who looked WAY better playing with him than they did without him.

And he made quite a few players significantly richer (than they should have been) as well.

And I'm prefectly aware Malkin really "helped" James Neal, too.

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 12:54 PM
  #102
K Fleur
Intangibles Per Game
 
K Fleur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,897
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joedaman55 View Post
Malkin was better than St Louis at his peak but it is close. If you put more weight on winning it all in the playoffs, I could definitely see a case for St. Louis. If people are looking at St. Louis this way, he may be one of the more underrated players on the board.
Huh? Malkin has won it all in the playoffs more often than St. Louis, and has a better individual playoff resume as well. That's the one are where St. Louis really has no case.

K Fleur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 01:19 PM
  #103
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: South Cackalacky
Posts: 54,604
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joedaman55 View Post
Malkin was better than St Louis at his peak but it is close. If you put more weight on winning it all in the playoffs, I could definitely see a case for St. Louis. If people are looking at St. Louis this way, he may be one of the more underrated players on the board.
What?

Malkin has 2 Stanley Cup wins, with point totals of 36 (1st on team) and 18 (3rd), and a finals appearance with 22 points (3rd). Overall he has 129 points in 124 games, with a Conn Smythe trophy.

Martin St. Louis has 1 Stanley Cup win, with a point total of 24 (2nd on team) and a finals appearance with 15 points (2nd). Overall he has 90 points in 107 games.

I'm really curious how you are coming up with that conclusion.

Epsilon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 01:39 PM
  #104
Ageless66
Registered User
 
Ageless66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 5,279
vCash: 500
I'm baffled at the comparison between the two

Ageless66 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 01:51 PM
  #105
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,116
vCash: 800
Malkin is an underrated playoff performer.

He has a case against every player of his generation on that front.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:00 PM
  #106
reckoning
Registered User
 
reckoning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,931
vCash: 500
Surprised there's been no mention of Jamie Benn's Art Ross in 2015. Sure he deserved it because technically it goes to the player with the most points, and that was him. But that was an ideal situation for him: all the other contenders had finished their seasons, so he knew how many points he needed to win it. It was a nothing game for the Stars, so they were focused on getting him the points, and Ruff was willing to give him as much icetime as he needed.

Had Dallas had played the afternoon game that day, and the Islanders and Tavares played at night, would the result have been the same?

reckoning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:06 PM
  #107
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,116
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Surprised there's been no mention of Jamie Benn's Art Ross in 2015. Sure he deserved it because technically it goes to the player with the most points, and that was him. But that was an ideal situation for him: all the other contenders had finished their seasons, so he knew how many points he needed to win it. It was a nothing game for the Stars, so they were focused on getting him the points, and Ruff was willing to give him as much icetime as he needed.

Had Dallas had played the afternoon game that day, and the Islanders and Tavares played at night, would the result have been the same?
I was one of the most pissed person at that last minute win by Jamie Benn.But him continuing to play at a very high level silenced the whining including mine.It was an ugly Art Ross win to be sure, but it's easier to swallow now that Benn has established himself as a legitimate scoring superstar.Does anyone think Benn will finish outside the Top 5 in scoring next year barring injuries? It's easier to see it as him catching his break early in his prime/peak in retrospective, while at the time it looked like a good forward having a spike season who luckboxed his way to an Art Ross in a bizarre low scoring year at the top.

Still feel bad for Tavares though.Hope he wins one.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:22 PM
  #108
K Fleur
Intangibles Per Game
 
K Fleur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,897
vCash: 500
Before games started on the last day of the season 14-15 season the point leaders were:

1. Tavares- 84 points (tiebreak lead on goals)
2. Crosby- 84 points
3. Benn - 83 points

Crosby played a terrible Buffalo team and put up zero points. Tavares played a non playoff team in Columbus and put up 2 points in a shootout loss. Benn played a 104 point playoff team in Nashville(8th in GA) and scored 4 points in a win. All three players went into these games with an opportunity to win the award, Benn just took advantage of the opportunity the best.

Benn went on a month long tear to even put his name in contention for the Ross that year(he was under a PPG after 60 games). Tavares, and Crosby both had the opportunity to put the away way earlier if they had performed better.

The 14-15 Art Ross was one of the weakest years in the awards history, but by no means did Jamie Benn not deserve it.

K Fleur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:26 PM
  #109
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 32,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageless66 View Post
I'm baffled at the comparison between the two
Well, if we raised your awareness on Martin St-Louis, that's a big win. To a certain point, him and Malkin are close; I prefer St-Louis because there's quite a lot of hard evidence that he made players around him overperform, while Malkin... There's evidence, but not as much, mostly because there's a quite significant gap in games.

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:28 PM
  #110
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,116
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Well, if we raised your awareness on Martin St-Louis, that's a big win. To a certain point, him and Malkin are close; I prefer St-Louis because there's quite a lot of hard evidence that he made players around him overperform, while Malkin... There's evidence, but not as much, mostly because there's a quite significant gap in games.
St. Louis also played with better players than Malkin on his lines didn't he?

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:29 PM
  #111
K Fleur
Intangibles Per Game
 
K Fleur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,897
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
St. Louis also played with better players than Malkin on his lines didn't he?
Consistently yes.

K Fleur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:29 PM
  #112
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 32,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
St. Louis also played with better players than Malkin on his lines didn't he?
...And take off their time with St-Louis and you roughly end up with guys similar to James Neal.

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:30 PM
  #113
IDeyChopNaira*
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 129
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageless66 View Post
Malkin swept all the awards in 11-12 with a season much greater than st.louis ever had

In 08-09 he became the first player since lemieux to sweep both the reg and playoff scoring titles directly against a prime crosby and ovechkin

36 point playoff one of the greatest in history

Malkin>St.louis

Agreed. Malkin is underrated. Arguably, the best centre of the XXI century..after Datsyuk

IDeyChopNaira* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:31 PM
  #114
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,116
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
...And take off their time with St-Louis and you roughly end up with guys similar to James Neal.
I was mostly talking about Lecavalier and Stamkos, and possibly Brad Richards, but I'm not really sure how much he played with Lecavalier and Richards.

Even if the stats would indicate they declined without St. Louis, I'm struggling to believe they were a product of him.

Richards was a poor skater, him declining young is not surprising.Stamkos is a goalscorer who got injured, both factors made him likely he would slow down very early in his career.For Lecavalier, he got injured when hitting his absolute peak and was a better player than St. Louis ever was for a short window.Really bad timing for his shoulder (IIRC) injury who basically screwed his career from that point on.

Of course anyone would be helped by playing with St.Louis, who like I said earlier is a strong playmaking winger, a rarity and sign of quality.But being a product of him and being helped by him is potentially two different things.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:31 PM
  #115
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 32,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IDeyChopNaira View Post
Agreed. Malkin is underrated. Arguably, the best centre of the XXI century..after Datsyuk
Well, if that's the level of Malkin' proponents, I'd rather be on the other side of the argument.

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:35 PM
  #116
IDeyChopNaira*
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 129
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Well, if that's the level of Malkin' proponents, I'd rather be on the other side of the argument.
You are welcome to be on any side you like.

Malkin still owns St Louis big time

IDeyChopNaira* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:35 PM
  #117
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 32,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I was mostly talking about Lecavalier and Stamkos, and possibly Brad Richards, but I'm not really sure how much he played with Lecavalier and Richards.

Even if the stats would indicate they declined without St. Louis, I'm struggling to believe they were a product of him.
They weren't a product of him, because they are or were solid players. As is James Neal by the way.

But that starts to make A LOT of players who had their best time with him for it to be a pure coincidence, don't you think?

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:35 PM
  #118
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 32,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IDeyChopNaira View Post
You are welcome to be on any side you like.

Malkin still owns St Louis big time
Well, he's better than St-Louis at being Russian... Other than that, I don't see any argument on your part. Not that I expect one mind you.

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:35 PM
  #119
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,116
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
They weren't a product of him, because they are or were solid players. As is James Neal by the way.

But that starts to make A LOT of players who had their best time with him for it to be a pure coincidence, don't you think?
Based on what I said in my edit, I'm not that uncomfortable thinking it was a coincidence to some level.

Richards had a massive year in Dallas.Lecavalier was better than St. Louis at their best.Stamkos is a goalscorer, he declined before his mid-20s like most of them do.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:39 PM
  #120
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 32,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Based on what I said in my edit, I'm not that uncomfortable thinking it was a coincidence to some level.
That's the thing ==> That's way too much coïncidences.

St-Louis wasn't the most amazing-looking player compared to a lot of players that are definitely inferior to him (and that's not even talking about players that are about on his level, like Evgeni Malkin).

At some point, one learns to not be easily impressed.

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:45 PM
  #121
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,116
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
That's the thing ==> That's way too much coïncidences.

St-Louis wasn't the most amazing-looking player compared to a lot of players that are definitely inferior to him (and that's not even talking about players that are about on his level, like Evgeni Malkin).

At some point, one learns to not be easily impressed.
Look, I'm a huge fan of St. Louis and think he was severely underrated throughout his entire career.You're preaching to the choir to some degree.

That being said, there's no doubt that Evgeni Malkin was a more dominant player than him in general.Maybe he won't pass him in our usual career ranking, but Malkin was a better hockey player.As in taking over games and dominating the field.But St. Louis was a master of consistency and Malkin was not (though his consistency is underrated, probably because of his injuries).

Maybe St. Louis was better at making those around him better though.And while that could be taken as the definition of what makes a great hockey player, it's not so cut and dry unless we're talking Mario Lemieux - Rob Brown level.Inferior players than Bobby Hull were probably better than him at elevating their linemates (same with Maurice Richard).

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 02:50 PM
  #122
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,116
vCash: 800
By the way, I did think Martin St. Louis looked amazing on the ice.That back-hand was genius.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 03:05 PM
  #123
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: South Cackalacky
Posts: 54,604
vCash: 500
Seems to me the only thing Malkin needs to decisively pass St. Louis is either a few more elite seasons OR several seasons worth of longevity to boost his GP numbers and counting totals. Both (as in, multiple top 3-5 scoring seasons -and- numbers getting him into the 1000+ point range) and he'd be considerably ahead of him.

Epsilon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 03:08 PM
  #124
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,116
vCash: 800
Let's just throw the usual basic data out there for Malkin vs St. Louis:

VsX 10 years:
St. Louis: 86.3
Malkin: 78.5

VsX 7 years:
St. Louis: 92.4
Malkin: 89.2

Top 10 Points:
St. Louis: 1, 1, 2, 5, 6
Malkin: 1, 1, 2

Top 10 Goals:
St. Louis: 4, 5
Malkin: 2, 4

Top 10 Assists:
St. Louis: 1, 1, 2, 5, 7, 9
Malkin: 1, 3, 6, 10

Top 10 Point-Per-Game:
St. Louis: 2, 3, 3, 7, 9
Malkin: 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8

Hart:
St. Louis: 1, 3, 9
Malkin: 1, 2, 2

All-Star Team:
St. Louis: 1, 2, 2, 2, 2
Malkin: 1, 1, 1

Both won the Lester B. Pearson award one time

Malkin won the Conn Smythe trophy, St. Louis did not.

Playoffs:
St. Louis: 90 points in 107 games
Malkin: 129 points in 124 games

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2016, 03:12 PM
  #125
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 32,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Seems to me the only thing Malkin needs to decisively pass St. Louis is either a few more elite seasons OR several seasons worth of longevity to boost his GP numbers and counting totals. Both (as in, multiple top 3-5 scoring seasons -and- numbers getting him into the 1000+ point range) and he'd be considerably ahead of him.
That makes sense.

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:27 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.