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Philly fans predict: Who is playoff darkhorse?

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Old
01-14-2006, 12:05 PM
  #26
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Watch out for the Rangers.

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01-14-2006, 01:13 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
Actually Pelts, there's been talk that Tampa Bay has been talking two deals. The first deal involves moving Kubina to Buffalo for a package that includes Martin Biron. The second deal involves moving Modin to Minnesota for Manny Fernandez. Tampa Bay will shore up the goaltending position.

I'm not worried about facing Tampa Bay in the playoffs though. The two games we lost to them this year, they were winable games. We got questionable goaltending from Esche. I'm thinking Esche will be riding the pine this playoff run.

I worry more about playing Atlanta than Tampa Bay just because Atlanta can score at will and with Kari Lehtonen getting into a groove, they could be pretty imposing.
Interesting. However, facing Biron or Fernandez really doesn't strike fear into me either.

Lehtonen has to prove to me that he can play in 15-20 straight without aggravating his glass groin before I start worrying about Atlanta.

Lou is God, I don't know why Jester continues to say that the Devils are a one line team. The Devils have 4 players with more than 10 goals, so do the Flyers. The Devils have 7 players with 5-9 goals, so do the Flyers. The Devils have 3 players with more than 5 PP goals, so do the Flyers.

The fact that Brodeur minds the goal for them is enough for me to worry about.

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01-14-2006, 02:06 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com
Interesting. However, facing Biron or Fernandez really doesn't strike fear into me either.

Lehtonen has to prove to me that he can play in 15-20 straight without aggravating his glass groin before I start worrying about Atlanta.

Lou is God, I don't know why Jester continues to say that the Devils are a one line team. The Devils have 4 players with more than 10 goals, so do the Flyers. The Devils have 7 players with 5-9 goals, so do the Flyers. The Devils have 3 players with more than 5 PP goals, so do the Flyers.

The fact that Brodeur minds the goal for them is enough for me to worry about.

Agreed with regards to the Devils. I don't know about anyone else on here, but I expected more out of our rookies, especially with the new rule changes. I just see the Flyers as a one line offensive team with, to be perfectly honest, a mediocre offensive supporting cast. Yeah, the supporting cast is great defensively, but when Handzus has 34 points and only 7 of those points are goals, it should be setting off alarms for the rest of the team.

I sometimes wonder if we're too easy in terms of letting teams off the hook when we're on an offensive tear. I think it's time that this team start going bush league and really starting ripping into teams. Maybe it's a good time to give the Gagne/Forsberg/Knuble line a bit less ice time and see what the Richards and Carter lines can do offensively. It's time that Hitch put some pressure on those lines to produce.

If we get all three lines firing on all cylinders offensively, we should be nearly impossible to stop.

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01-14-2006, 02:08 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou is God
You know you keep suggesting that the Devils are just a one pony trick and are weak on defense but last night they beat Vancouver 3-0 without Elias for their third shutout in the last five games, so obviously we are not such the one line team or weak defensively as you keep saying.

But my biggest problem with your continuous comments the past fews days about the Devils being a one line team is if you look at the Flyer stats one can make the same argument about the Flyers if you take away their top line. The only other forward that is is double digits in goals is a rookie with ten.

Does this mean that the Flyers are in trouble playoff time to me? Hell no, I still think once fully healthy they can be a sizeable problem for all comers in the East and if their goaltending can come close to matching the Senators the favorites to go to the finals and a team that the Devils would have a very tough time beating in the playoffs.

But your reasons for us having problems making the playoffs are invalid, are we a lock to make it, no way. But to suggest that we can't make it because of us being just a one line team when you seem to not realize that the Flyers are accomplishing the same thing with the same problem as our the Rangers comes across as wishful thinking more than anything else.
the Devs have scored 126 goals this season, 43% of those goals have been scored by Gionta, Gomez, and Mogilny (gone)... Elias will replace and surpass Mogilny, so that's a plus.

the flyers have scored 157 goals this season... 41% of those goals have been scored by Forsberg, Gagne, and Knuble... so your point is fair in the pure production standpoint. however, a lot of those goals are on the PP and the fact that the Devs just went through a 4/100 stretch should be a bit disconcerting.

however, you guys have NO centers that are going to concern anyone at the moment offensively. Madden is clearly one of best defensive centers in the game. i think the devils should and will be a very tough home team... i don't fear them in my own building though, where i can match up on that top line and force the others to go get points on us.

Handzus, Carter, Richards, Umberger, etc. are all producing points and we've been without Pitkanen who was getting better than a point a game in the stretch prior to getting hurt... he's about to come back. simply put, our scoring situation is a bit better IMO.

we'll see... go prove me wrong, i love Devil/Flyer games. However, as was proven in the last playoffs... the EGG line alone probably isn't going to get it done and you don't have the offense of Nieds anymore. Brodeur is Brodeur...

i'm just saying... who on that roster will you COUNT on getting a point when an opposing team has the ability to toss out a defensive group capable of holding down the EGG line at home... i'm not feeling bad about my chances with Handzus, Kapanen (who has been awesome since he came back), Carter (getting better as the season goes), Johnsson, Pitkanen, and Rico... there's more depth there and the Devs have very little that even remotely compares.

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01-14-2006, 02:10 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com
Interesting. However, facing Biron or Fernandez really doesn't strike fear into me either.

Lehtonen has to prove to me that he can play in 15-20 straight without aggravating his glass groin before I start worrying about Atlanta.

Lou is God, I don't know why Jester continues to say that the Devils are a one line team. The Devils have 4 players with more than 10 goals, so do the Flyers. The Devils have 7 players with 5-9 goals, so do the Flyers. The Devils have 3 players with more than 5 PP goals, so do the Flyers.

The fact that Brodeur minds the goal for them is enough for me to worry about.
Atlanta's PP unit is capable of winning a series on its own... they won't win the cup this year, but they can beat anyone in the league if you catch them while that unit is hot in a short series.

Pelts... look at their second line and tell me you have ANY concern about them. Mogilny is one of those 10 goal scorers... and he isn't on the team.

look at some of the other teams in the league... they are cause for much more concern.


Last edited by Jester: 01-14-2006 at 02:20 PM.
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01-14-2006, 02:45 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Atlanta's PP unit is capable of winning a series on its own... they won't win the cup this year, but they can beat anyone in the league if you catch them while that unit is hot in a short series.

Pelts... look at their second line and tell me you have ANY concern about them. Mogilny is one of those 10 goal scorers... and he isn't on the team.

look at some of the other teams in the league... they are cause for much more concern.
Atlanta's PP may be capable of winning a series, but let's see who is in goal before we start worrying.

Ok, so the Devils have one less 10 goal scorer than the Flyers. Sorry, but the fact that they have Brodeur and no other team does causes me to be concerned about the Devils and not some other teams.

I am guessing that come playoff time, the officiating may revert back to the way it was in the past and that plays into the Devils style of play.

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01-14-2006, 02:53 PM
  #32
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Hmmm, something just doesn't look right with regards to this Flyers team. We should be scoring more goals than what we're currently scoring. When you see that the line of Gagne/Forsberg/Knuble is the only line on this team in which each player has double digits in terms of scoring, it should be alarming to everyone on here.

Guys like Hadzus, Richards, and Umberger need to be scoring more. Rookies or not, it's not an excuse. They need to start converting on more of their chances. 7,6,7 is what each player has. They should have at least 4 or 5 goals more.

Carter should be getting more as well. Once again, you can all use the "mono, adjusting to the NHL excuse", but he should be converting more.

Savage is a waste taking up space on the roster and the ice time he's given could be divvied up more amongst guys like Carter, Richards, Umberger, etc.....When guys like Carter and Umberger are only getting 10 minutes a game and someone like Savage is getting like 8 or 9 minutes a game, then there's a problem. Why not take Savages time, cut it by about three minutes and add that three minutes to Carter and Umberger's line? It gives them a better chance at scoring.

I just see that once playoff time rolls around, the top line is going to be relied upon to supply most of the offense and the other three lines are going to be relied upon to play defense. And that just isn't going to work. If the top line gets shut down then what? Rely on scoring because of "defensive awareness"? Come on, this team could be doing much more than they are. And yeah, they might be the second team in terms offense in the league, but that game against Detroit the other night showed just how bad our offense is once that top line is kept in check.

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01-14-2006, 03:30 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
Hmmm, something just doesn't look right with regards to this Flyers team. We should be scoring more goals than what we're currently scoring. When you see that the line of Gagne/Forsberg/Knuble is the only line on this team in which each player has double digits in terms of scoring, it should be alarming to everyone on here.

Guys like Hadzus, Richards, and Umberger need to be scoring more. Rookies or not, it's not an excuse. They need to start converting on more of their chances. 7,6,7 is what each player has. They should have at least 4 or 5 goals more.

Carter should be getting more as well. Once again, you can all use the "mono, adjusting to the NHL excuse", but he should be converting more.

Savage is a waste taking up space on the roster and the ice time he's given could be divvied up more amongst guys like Carter, Richards, Umberger, etc.....When guys like Carter and Umberger are only getting 10 minutes a game and someone like Savage is getting like 8 or 9 minutes a game, then there's a problem. Why not take Savages time, cut it by about three minutes and add that three minutes to Carter and Umberger's line? It gives them a better chance at scoring.

I just see that once playoff time rolls around, the top line is going to be relied upon to supply most of the offense and the other three lines are going to be relied upon to play defense. And that just isn't going to work. If the top line gets shut down then what? Rely on scoring because of "defensive awareness"? Come on, this team could be doing much more than they are. And yeah, they might be the second team in terms offense in the league, but that game against Detroit the other night showed just how bad our offense is once that top line is kept in check.
1. Primeau comes back Handzus moves to the Wing on Richards line which improves it immensely.

2. Primeau doesn't come back they will acquire someone... may acquire someone regardless.

3. the 11th game of an 11 game road trip that we went 8-2-1 on while the top-line was SLUMPING is a crappy game to judge our offense. remember, our top-line hasn't been clipping along nearly as well as it was.

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01-14-2006, 04:11 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
the flyers have scored 157 goals this season... 41% of those goals have been scored by Forsberg, Gagne, and Knuble... so your point is fair in the pure production standpoint. however, a lot of those goals are on the PP and the fact that the Devs just went through a 4/100 stretch should be a bit disconcerting.
Not really, that power play stretch was brutal but that was during a time our offense production was brutal overall and with the addition of Elias the power play is back to normal. Keep in mind our power play % is only two points behind yours.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
however, you guys have NO centers that are going to concern anyone at the moment offensively. Madden is clearly one of best defensive centers in the game. i think the devils should and will be a very tough home team... i don't fear them in my own building though, where i can match up on that top line and force the others to go get points on us.
Gomez is not a concern to nobody? Oh com'on man, in the last eight games he has produced 8 goals and 9 assists, how can you say we have NO centers that concerns anyone. Don't be fooled by his slow start, that has always been the case with him, his second half of the season has always been much stronger than his first. And with Elias back expect Gomez's offensive production to continue at a high pace.

EDIT: Reading your post again I'm wondering if you might be referring to the Devils center minus Gomez, if so no doubt, that is a big weakness on our team and one that Lou needs to address before the trading deadline.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Handzus, Carter, Richards, Umberger, etc. are all producing points and we've been without Pitkanen who was getting better than a point a game in the stretch prior to getting hurt... he's about to come back. simply put, our scoring situation is a bit better IMO.
And we got Langenbrunner, Brylin, Kozlov, Parise - who's play of late has improved dramatically ever since Robinson stepped down- and while this group is nothing to write home about, they are producing just as much as the group you named.

But getting a healthy Pitkanen back will be a HUGE plus for you guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
we'll see... go prove me wrong, i love Devil/Flyer games. However, as was proven in the last playoffs... the EGG line alone probably isn't going to get it done and you don't have the offense of Nieds anymore. Brodeur is Brodeur...
That was two years ago, and the EGG line is a MUCH better unit with the emergence of Gionta....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
i'm just saying... who on that roster will you COUNT on getting a point when an opposing team has the ability to toss out a defensive group capable of holding down the EGG line at home... i'm not feeling bad about my chances with Handzus, Kapanen (who has been awesome since he came back), Carter (getting better as the season goes), Johnsson, Pitkanen, and Rico... there's more depth there and the Devs have very little that even remotely compares.
....and again you keep suggesting that you have this HUGE advantage over us when we get past the top line's and that's just not true. Now the wild card is if Primeau comes back healthy because if he does that will change all dynamics of the playoff structure no matter who you guys play, he will be that big of a factor in the playoffs, his style and talent will pose a problem for alot teams including the Devils.

I don't have a beef with your suggestion that you are the better team, I agree with that and have stated this since day one of the season and I still feel that way.

My beef is your insistence that we are not a team to worry about and with all due respect that's just insane.

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Old
01-14-2006, 04:48 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou is God
EDIT: Reading your post again I'm wondering if you might be referring to the Devils center minus Gomez, if so no doubt, that is a big weakness on our team and one that Lou needs to address before the trading deadline.




And we got Langenbrunner, Brylin, Kozlov, Parise - who's play of late has improved dramatically ever since Robinson stepped down- and while this group is nothing to write home about, they are producing just as much as the group you named.

But getting a healthy Pitkanen back will be a HUGE plus for you guys.



That was two years ago, and the EGG line is a MUCH better unit with the emergence of Gionta....



....and again you keep suggesting that you have this HUGE advantage over us when we get past the top line's and that's just not true. Now the wild card is if Primeau comes back healthy because if he does that will change all dynamics of the playoff structure no matter who you guys play, he will be that big of a factor in the playoffs, his style and talent will pose a problem for alot teams including the Devils.

I don't have a beef with your suggestion that you are the better team, I agree with that and have stated this since day one of the season and I still feel that way.

My beef is your insistence that we are not a team to worry about and with all due respect that's just insane.
yes, Gomez is very good.

two years ago the EGG line was the best line in hockey in the second half of the season. the BEST line. go look at the splits. they were absolutely dominant... they can't get any better than they were in the spring of '04.

i think we have a significant advantage... past our first line in our forwards... i think we have a significant advantage on defense.

before the season i thought the Devs were a questionable playoff team... and that was assuming Mogilny was there and being somewhat effective... and Elias came back strong (which he seems to be doing... though, i'd be worry about him hitting the wall for a bit here). they've done nothing to change my mind about this.

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01-14-2006, 05:11 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
yes, Gomez is very good.

two years ago the EGG line was the best line in hockey in the second half of the season. the BEST line. go look at the splits. they were absolutely dominant... they can't get any better than they were in the spring of '04.
Believe me, I know what they did that year, but based on what we have seen so far since Elias has come back they are going to be even better which is a very scary thing to think about.

And Gionta finished the whole year with 21 goals in 2003-04, in the first half of this season he has 25 goals and that was without the EGG line being together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
i think we have a significant advantage... past our first line in our forwards... i think we have a significant advantage on defense.
Defense yes, forwards no, but if Primeau comes back healthy, all bets are off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
before the season i thought the Devs were a questionable playoff team... and that was assuming Mogilny was there and being somewhat effective... and Elias came back strong (which he seems to be doing... though, i'd be worry about him hitting the wall for a bit here). they've done nothing to change my mind about this.
Before Elias come back we were just a few points out of a playoff spot, now that he has returned they reeled off five straight wins while giving up just six goals. Elias's return has a two fold effect, one his offensive skills are going to immensely help out the Devils, and second his return alone has helped the Devils get their savvy back and have placed them square in the playoff race.

You talk like were ten points out of a playoff spot, were not.

If you don't think all that doesn't make a Devils a playoff team now, then I don't know what to tell you man.

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01-14-2006, 06:16 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou is God
Before Elias come back we were just a few points out of a playoff spot, now that he has returned they reeled off five straight wins while giving up just six goals. Elias's return has a two fold effect, one his offensive skills are going to immensely help out the Devils, and second his return alone has helped the Devils get their savvy back and have placed them square in the playoff race.

You talk like were ten points out of a playoff spot, were not.

If you don't think all that doesn't make a Devils a playoff team now, then I don't know what to tell you man.
Florida (H), Montreal (H), Buffalo (A), Philly (H), and Vancouver (H)

1) read what i said... i think they are a VERY tough team to play at home with the combination of the EGG line and Madden being able to match-up with last shift.

2) @ Buffalo is the only victory there that is really impressive to me... go and read my post prior to our game against the Caps i thought we were going to lose to you... we were slowing down on that trip, you caught us at a very good time.

as of now the Devils are NOT in the playoffs... and that is after this little run.

if you look at the east i think we can expect Philly, Carolina, Ottawa, Buffalo, and the Rangers to make the playoffs. so, there are 3 spots that are in play as of right now.

you have: Toronto, Atlanta, Tampa Bay, New Jersey, and Montreal competing for those 3 spots.

I personally think that Atlanta and Tampa are going to get in... especially if TB deals for a goalie, which seems likely. I think both of those teams are better than the other three... personal opinion. that leaves Toronto, NJ, and Montreal competing for the final spot.

Lets assume teams get 1 point off of all games in hand amongst those three teams. that puts us at...

Toronto 52 pts.
New Jersey 47 pts.
Montreal 47 pts.

I don't know what to make of Montreal. they were gangbusters to start the season, then they got banged up and have never really recovered. the fact that they have a -15 goal differential makes me think that they are not a playoff team.

so... lets say the 8th spot goes down to Toronto/New Jersey.

i'd say that's 50/50... however, most of this argument is based on the idea that Tampa Bay is going to do something about goaltending and they're going to shake their funk... way too much talent down there for them to continue to play like this... remember, they made their run in the standings in the second half of the last season.

if i had to pick seeding i would go something like...

1. Ottawa
2. Philly
3. Carolina
4. Buffalo
5. Rags
6. Atlanta
7. Tampa
8. Toronto

can you make a compelling argument that NJ is a lock to be a playoff team over that group? as said, i think that the Devs are going to struggle on the road... (you're 7-11-2... which seems to back this up) and that is going to hurt their chances. what may help the Devs is the fact that Pitt and NYI are very very weak teams...

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01-14-2006, 06:17 PM
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01-14-2006, 07:37 PM
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Once again, the top line tried to carry the team. There is 0 secondary scoring when we really need it. Lines 2 through 4 play a strict defensive game and line 1 is allowed to free wheel. I just don't get it.

Today's game was a perfect example of when we needed someone from one of the other lines to pick up the scoring slack and they fail to do so. Why is it so hard for Hitch to use those other lines as scoring lines? Until this secondary scoring situation gets resolved, we're only as good as that one line is and it isn't going to win us a Cup. We need balanced scoring. Having one line score 41% of the offense will not win a championship. We have the talent here to spread out the scoring. It's like watching Dallas all over again.

I will say this. If we don't win the Cup this year, I sure as hell hope Snider fires Hitchcock's sorry behind. He's been given an unbelievably talented team and the fact he still tries to coach the game like it's 1999 is sickening.


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01-14-2006, 08:10 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
can you make a compelling argument that NJ is a lock to be a playoff team over that group? as said, i think that the Devs are going to struggle on the road... (you're 7-11-2... which seems to back this up) and that is going to hurt their chances. what may help the Devs is the fact that Pitt and NYI are very very weak teams...

What I said earlier in this thread:

Quote:
But your reasons for us having problems making the playoffs are invalid, are we a lock to make it, no way.
You must have missed or forgot it, I never claimed they were a lock for the playoffs, I did suggest they were a playoff team now but I was more referring them as a playoff caliber team which they are especially now that we have Elias back and him looking like he hasn't missed one step.

You also keep insisting that the Devils were struggle mightily on the road as you have put it based on their 7-11-2 as backing your claim but you fail to realize one thing the Devils didn't have then and have now is one of the best all around hockey players in the game and who brings the leadership that is pivotal to winning those tough games on the road.

I think the problem with your argument that the Devils have a harder hill to climb is that it seems you are vastly underestimating how good of a hockey player Elias is and what he means to this team.

Think about this, if you were to take Jagr away from the Rags, Iginla from the Flames, Sakic from the Av's or Kovalchuk from the Thrashers, what kind of teams do you think they would be today? And this example could be made for even more teams who rely on one great player and maybe even the Flyers with Forsberg.

The point being these players are great players because they make their teams much better with more than just their talent alone, they basically make or break their teams success, there is no denying this.

As for as who the Devils might surpass to make the playoffs with such a strong field I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is the Bolts who have major goaltending woes and despite your suggestion that they will easily fix that problem which is shocking since you are a Flyers fan and who should know first hand how difficult it is to replace an inadequate goalie with a good one. Plus I know first hand making the playoffs the following season after the Stanley Cup is not a guarantee by any means and if you look at the Bolts roster today and compare it to their championship roster, tell we what they have done to improve it?

As far as the rest of the field I look at it this way and always have, if you play well enough and win your games you don't need to worry about who you need to pass to make it to the playoffs, if the Devils continue this run with Marty continuing to excel and their defense keeps up the good play of late and with the much needed addition of Elias, let the other teams worry about us instead of us worrying about them, we haven't done that in the last ten years and I see no reason why we should start now.

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01-14-2006, 10:05 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou is God

....
fine... as i said. i questioned their playoff chances PRIOR to the season... nothing has happened to change my opinion. they have Elias back... get going and away from home some and we'll find out if i'm right about them having a tough time on the road... we haven't been able to prove that yet... and as GREAT as leadership is, it's much more important to have players who can finish than to have a great leader. Messier didn't exactly lead the Rags anywhere the last couple of years.

1. since Stevens' injury Brodeur has statistically been in the middle of the pack.

2. you know, as well as me, how huge a loss Nieds and Stevens are.

3. what has Lou done to replace those losses?

4. i agree that Elias will help, but all of your good offensive players are isolated on one line... i'm not sure that will create THAT much more offense as there is only so much puck to go around... and it isn't as if Gomez/Gionta were failing to produce goals prior to his arrival.

5. the larger gain will be on the PP.

6. again... looking at your team as an opponent... who, after the top line, is really causing you great concern?

as far as Tampa's goaltending... i have a feeling you could see Brad Richards moved, given his contract situation, in order to acquire a goaltender. if not there are certainly some goalies available that might help Tampa... i think the LARGER concern for anyone in a fight with them for a playoff spot is that they've dramatically underachieved offensively thus year and that could fix a lot of problem in and of itself.

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01-14-2006, 10:12 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
Once again, the top line tried to carry the team. There is 0 secondary scoring when we really need it. Lines 2 through 4 play a strict defensive game and line 1 is allowed to free wheel. I just don't get it.

Today's game was a perfect example of when we needed someone from one of the other lines to pick up the scoring slack and they fail to do so. Why is it so hard for Hitch to use those other lines as scoring lines? Until this secondary scoring situation gets resolved, we're only as good as that one line is and it isn't going to win us a Cup. We need balanced scoring. Having one line score 41% of the offense will not win a championship. We have the talent here to spread out the scoring. It's like watching Dallas all over again.[/B]

I will say this. If we don't win the Cup this year, I sure as hell hope Snider fires Hitchcock's sorry behind. He's been given an unbelievably talented team and the fact he still tries to coach the game like it's 1999 is sickening.
you're hilarious.

a) snider isn't firing hitchcock... the babble about it is geting old.

b) as far as the thing about scoring... i don't even know what the hell that means. is Hitchcock telling them not to score? seriously dude... think about that whole argument again. if they're good enough to establish puck control, get into the other teams zone, and then create pressure... THAT is the best thing a line can do. that's even BETTER than playing defense because the last i checked there aren't too many friggin goals getting scored from that far away. if they score... that's even better.

i don't think our secondary scoring is a huge problem... i think Pitkanen is going to help a ton... i think Primeau/traded for player is going to help even more. however, to suggest that secondary scoring is hitchcock's fault is absolutely ridiculous. the best defense is to have the puck in the other teams end... if those lines aren't doing it, that's there fault, not Hitch's.

so, seriously...

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01-14-2006, 11:33 PM
  #43
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fine... as i said. i questioned their playoff chances PRIOR to the season... nothing has happened to change my opinion. they have Elias back... get going and away from home some and we'll find out if i'm right about them having a tough time on the road... we haven't been able to prove that yet... and as GREAT as leadership is, it's much more important to have players who can finish than to have a great leader. Messier didn't exactly lead the Rags anywhere the last couple of years.
You mean after he lead them to the Rags first Stanley Cup after a 54 year drought? And lets not forget the cup he led the Oilers to in 1990 after Gretzky left.

His leadership after that was questionable, but don't sell short what he did or what good leadership means to a hockey team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
1. since Stevens' injury Brodeur has statistically been in the middle of the pack.

2. you know, as well as me, how huge a loss Nieds and Stevens are.
Brodeurs numbers at the beginning if the season were horrible, but the Devils in general were horrible, our defenseman were not playing smart positional hockey as were our forwards. You could have put Jesus Christ himself in net and his numbers would have sucked.

But in the month of January his numbers have been 5-0, 1.20 GAA, 946 SV%, 3 SO. Which just happens to coincide with the return of Elias and the positive leadership that has spread out through the team and has return confidence to a team lacking that all the up to the Christmas holidays.

BTW, no idea why you are bringing Marty into this discussion, he's a BIG reason for the Devils fine play of late.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
3. what has Lou done to replace those losses?
Not much. But were not talking about if the Devils orcup contenders are not - which they are not right now -because if we were then that would be a fair question. But losing the two Scotty's have not turn us from a great team to a bad team but a great team to a good team.

Those two defensemen were a HUGE part of our success in the past, but they were not solely the reason for our success. The Devils have always been about team partnership in winning cups, nothing has really changed in that philosphy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
4. i agree that Elias will help, but all of your good offensive players are isolated on one line... i'm not sure that will create THAT much more offense as there is only so much puck to go around... and it isn't as if Gomez/Gionta were failing to produce goals prior to his arrival.

6. again... looking at your team as an opponent... who, after the top line, is really causing you great concern?
You keep trying to suggest that we have trouble because all of our offense is limited to one line, well that didn't stop the Flyers from going 28-10-7 did it? Having all their eggs in one nest so to speak.

I mean I'll propose the question to you, after your first line where is the rest of your offense coming from? Because after the Forsberg line you only have ONE forward in double digits in goals.

Even your fellow Flyer posters recognise this as a problem, and when or if Kapanen and Primeau return they could help make up your lack of balance scoring among your lines, I would put my money to say yes in that. But the fact remains that despite this unbalance distribution in scoring among the Flyers four lines during their injuries they still excelled, it just doesn't make sense when you suggest that the Devils can't have the same success despite have an offense very similar to the Flyers.

See what I mean?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
as far as Tampa's goaltending... i have a feeling you could see Brad Richards moved, given his contract situation, in order to acquire a goaltender. if not there are certainly some goalies available that might help Tampa... i think the LARGER concern for anyone in a fight with them for a playoff spot is that they've dramatically underachieved offensively thus year and that could fix a lot of problem in and of itself.
Boy, I hope not for their sake. I don't know Richards contract situation but that would be an incredibly stupid move trading him for goalie help.

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01-15-2006, 02:44 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Lou is God
1You mean after he lead them to the Rags first Stanley Cup after a 54 year drought? And lets not forget the cup he led the Oilers to in 1990 after Gretzky left.

2His leadership after that was questionable, but don't sell short what he did or what good leadership means to a hockey team.



3Brodeurs numbers at the beginning if the season were horrible, but the Devils in general were horrible, our defenseman were not playing smart positional hockey as were our forwards. You could have put Jesus Christ himself in net and his numbers would have sucked.

4But in the month of January his numbers have been 5-0, 1.20 GAA, 946 SV%, 3 SO. Which just happens to coincide with the return of Elias and the positive leadership that has spread out through the team and has return confidence to a team lacking that all the up to the Christmas holidays.

BTW, no idea why you are bringing Marty into this discussion, he's a BIG reason for the Devils fine play of late.


5Not much. But were not talking about if the Devils orcup contenders are not - which they are not right now -because if we were then that would be a fair question. But losing the two Scotty's have not turn us from a great team to a bad team but a great team to a good team.

Those two defensemen were a HUGE part of our success in the past, but they were not solely the reason for our success. The Devils have always been about team partnership in winning cups, nothing has really changed in that philosphy.



You keep trying to suggest that we have trouble because all of our offense is limited to one line, well that didn't stop the Flyers from going 28-10-7 did it? Having all their eggs in one nest so to speak.

6I mean I'll propose the question to you, after your first line where is the rest of your offense coming from? Because after the Forsberg line you only have ONE forward in double digits in goals.

7Even your fellow Flyer posters recognise this as a problem, and when or if Kapanen and Primeau return they could help make up your lack of balance scoring among your lines, I would put my money to say yes in that. But the fact remains that despite this unbalance distribution in scoring among the Flyers four lines during their injuries they still excelled, it just doesn't make sense when you suggest that the Devils can't have the same success despite have an offense very similar to the Flyers.

See what I mean?

8Boy, I hope not for their sake. I don't know Richards contract situation but that would be an incredibly stupid move trading him for goalie help.
1. i mean the last few years when the Rags sucked.

2. his leadership went nowhere... leadership abilities with nothing to lead matter for nought.

3. Brodeur has struggled since Stevens went down with the concussion. go look at the splits, it's dramatic. he struggled throughout the second half of the last season in comparison to other time periods.

4. very small sample size.

5. they weren't cup contenders in the last season... they were a one-dimensional offense (the EGG line) and the Flyers took advantage of that in a playoff series they won in 5 games. they were scarier with Stevens in the lineup, but that team had no shot of winning a cup... and with the loss of Nieds... they aren't as good as that team.

6. Handzus is a good offensive player (27 assists), Kapanen has been very good since getting his legs back, Carter has improved over the season, then there is Pitkanen who was arguably are second best offensive player in terms of dynamic presence, and the Primeau situation... which will result in either Handzus going to wing on the second line, or a player being acquired with that cap space (Rex being one floated possibility).

7. BobbyClarkeFan wants to fire Hitchcock and has previous argued that we were a poor offensive team (when we were third in the league in scoring)... is that who you're citing? we could use a winger on the second line, i won't argue this. but the quality of player below the top-line is better than the devils... the Devils also have nothing up the middle after Gomez offensively.

8. they may not be able to afford him... trade rumors have been floating for a while. depends on the goalie they move him for... now doesn't it? that would be for a big trade (if i were Tampa i would be trying to get Miller for him...).

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01-15-2006, 09:58 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
6. Handzus is a good offensive player (27 assists), Kapanen has been very good since getting his legs back, Carter has improved over the season, then there is Pitkanen who was arguably are second best offensive player in terms of dynamic presence, and the Primeau situation... which will result in either Handzus going to wing on the second line, or a player being acquired with that cap space (Rex being one floated possibility).

7. BobbyClarkeFan wants to fire Hitchcock and has previous argued that we were a poor offensive team (when we were third in the league in scoring)... is that who you're citing? we could use a winger on the second line, i won't argue this. but the quality of player below the top-line is better than the devils... the Devils also have nothing up the middle after Gomez offensively.

Last time I checked Jester, assists don't win games, goals do. And when we only have four players that have double digits in goals, yeah, it's a problem in terms of scoring. 41% of the goals scored have come from three players. 59% from what, 19 - 20 other players? I don't know about you, but I think most would consider that a problem, and a big problem at that. If the top line were contributing 30% of the offense, that's something that is liveable. The fact that the top line is producing 41% is a clear indication that goal scoring from everyone else is a big problem.

This team should be producing similar to what the Red Wings production is like. That's balanced scoring. We have no balance to our scoring and that will always be the problem. We have rookies that should be playing more, not less. We have a penalty kill that's in the bottom third of the league and our power play is converting at 18.6%. We're predictable in terms of offense and part of the coaching responsiblity is to change things up when things become predictable. There's no game plan in Philadelphia. It's ride the coat tails of the Forsberg line and just hope that everyone else stays out of the way. And I'll never understand that. We have dynamic secondary players, but a system that denies them any sort of opportunity to really produce on the level that the top line does.

Yeah, I'll say it again. If we don't win the Cup this year, I hope Snider fires Hitch. And I don't think it's that much of a stretch that he'll get fired if we don't win. Clarke has built a team specifically for Hitch. If Hitch can't get it done with this squad, then he's gotta go.

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01-15-2006, 10:42 AM
  #46
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I think Hitch easily stays here until the end of the season but next season will need to be a run to the finals at the least or he's gone.

The NJD are playing better than I expected... and great goalies can steal a series regardless of the rteam play in front of them. But I think that I'd rather play them than Toronto.

Curious... If Moligny is put on waivers... does anyone know what the order of temas are that he has to go through? Say the first 5... because he wont go later than that. If he goes to Toronto or Atlanta...

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01-15-2006, 10:58 AM
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Curious... If Moligny is put on waivers... does anyone know what the order of teams are that he has to go through? Say the first 5... because he wont go later than that. If he goes to Toronto or Atlanta...
No way will he go to Toronto or Atlanta. As for the bottom five, no way does he go to any of them either. It won't surprise me if the bottom five teams look to start paring payroll now. If anything, Mogilny might end up on one of those teams that are on the playoff bubble right now. I could see a team like Montreal, Phoenix, San Jose, etc....interested in Mogilny.

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01-15-2006, 12:18 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
Last time I checked Jester, assists don't win games, goals do. And when we only have four players that have double digits in goals, yeah, it's a problem in terms of scoring. 41% of the goals scored have come from three players. 59% from what, 19 - 20 other players? I don't know about you, but I think most would consider that a problem, and a big problem at that. If the top line were contributing 30% of the offense, that's something that is liveable. The fact that the top line is producing 41% is a clear indication that goal scoring from everyone else is a big problem.

This team should be producing similar to what the Red Wings production is like. That's balanced scoring. We have no balance to our scoring and that will always be the problem. We have rookies that should be playing more, not less. We have a penalty kill that's in the bottom third of the league and our power play is converting at 18.6%. We're predictable in terms of offense and part of the coaching responsiblity is to change things up when things become predictable. There's no game plan in Philadelphia. It's ride the coat tails of the Forsberg line and just hope that everyone else stays out of the way. And I'll never understand that. We have dynamic secondary players, but a system that denies them any sort of opportunity to really produce on the level that the top line does.

Yeah, I'll say it again. If we don't win the Cup this year, I hope Snider fires Hitch. And I don't think it's that much of a stretch that he'll get fired if we don't win. Clarke has built a team specifically for Hitch. If Hitch can't get it done with this squad, then he's gotta go.
Last time i checked there is a DIRECT correlation to a goal being scored when an assist is given to a player. I might have missed something in the statistical changes that occured in the last CBA, if so, enlighten me.

Actually it is more of a CLEAR indication that they are really really good. Forsberg has the 4th best Assister-Per-Game rate in the HISTORY of hockey (I'm not sure where he ranks in points-per-game, but it's close to that). Now, rationally what this means is that whenever he is on the ice, in the history of the NHL, you have the 4th best chance to have a goal produced for your team. 4th best. think about that. how many players have played in the NHL, he's the 4th best... What THAT means is that it is VERY VERY difficult for ANYONE to produce goals on a line anything remotely close to what Forsberg's going to produce. If you want to see "balanced" scoring on a team that has Forsberg leading the charge, you best have a HoF'er sitting on the second line for competition... and unless they're named Gretzky, Lemieux, and whoever (not sure who the other is) even that HoF player isn't going to create equal scoring to Forsberg.

22-23 minutes a night are going to the Forsberg line. so they are getting MORE ice time than the rest of the team... further complicating anyone's effort to produce anything on par with them... that 41% isn't a statistically anomaly, that's "peter forsberg is REALLY good."

more to the point that line struggled on this road trip that we just went 8-2-1 on and we were still successful. you like to bring up specific games from the past few weeks when making this statemnt... how about the games where they did step up?

we do not have the scoring depth that Detroit does... so, no, we shouldn't be scoring at the balanced rate that they do.

k... i'm so glad you make no decisions that are important to the Flyers. even if you're right about Hitch -- which you're not -- go back to the press conference when he was hired and read what Snider said. look at the fact that Dallas regretted firing him greatly... the man has this team, which has lost over 200 man games to injury, at the top of the NHL standings. it's fascinating that you are so against someone who has a team you supposedly root for playing so well...


Last edited by Jester: 01-15-2006 at 12:26 PM.
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01-15-2006, 12:45 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Jester
1. i mean the last few years when the Rags sucked.
That's like saying Gretzky sucks and pointing to last few years of his career to back up your point. I mean com'on....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
2. his leadership went nowhere... leadership abilities with nothing to lead matter for nought.
What's this got to do with this discussion unless your trying to suggest that Elias has nothing to lead which I really hope your not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
3. Brodeur has struggled since Stevens went down with the concussion. go look at the splits, it's dramatic. he struggled throughout the second half of the last season in comparison to other time periods.

4. very small sample size.
You want to do some splits? Check out Stevens career and playoff success before Brodeur came along, you might be shocked by what you find and should think twice before you erroneously try to suggest Stevens is the sole reason for Marty's success.

Hey, here's a thought, maybe Marty has something to do with his great success...nahhhh....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
5. they weren't cup contenders in the last season... they were a one-dimensional offense (the EGG line) and the Flyers took advantage of that in a playoff series they won in 5 games. they were scarier with Stevens in the lineup, but that team had no shot of winning a cup... and with the loss of Nieds... they aren't as good as that team.
I know, I just said that!

And the main reason the Devils lost to the Flyers in that playoff round was because of size, we couldn't deal with your bigger forwards, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
6. Handzus is a good offensive player (27 assists), Kapanen has been very good since getting his legs back, Carter has improved over the season, then there is Pitkanen who was arguably are second best offensive player in terms of dynamic presence, and the Primeau situation... which will result in either Handzus going to wing on the second line, or a player being acquired with that cap space (Rex being one floated possibility).
Assists don't win hockey games, goals do. You keep trying to hide from the fact that that outside your first line your other lines haven't produced either, the same criticism you passed on to the Devils and now trying to say it doesn't apply to the Flyers because one guy gets a ton of assists.

Any idea how biased this is coming across?? Or do you just not care?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
7. BobbyClarkeFan wants to fire Hitchcock and has previous argued that we were a poor offensive team (when we were third in the league in scoring)... is that who you're citing? we could use a winger on the second line, i won't argue this. but the quality of player below the top-line is better than the devils... the Devils also have nothing up the middle after Gomez offensively.
Him and pelts35.

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01-15-2006, 01:05 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Lou is God
That's like saying Gretzky sucks and pointing to last few years of his career to back up your point. I mean com'on....


What's this got to do with this discussion unless your trying to suggest that Elias has nothing to lead which I really hope your not.


You want to do some splits? Check out Stevens career and playoff success before Brodeur came along, you might be shocked by what you find and should think twice before you erroneously try to suggest Stevens is the sole reason for Marty's success.

Hey, here's a thought, maybe Marty has something to do with his great success...nahhhh....


I know, I just said that!

And the main reason the Devils lost to the Flyers in that playoff round was because of size, we couldn't deal with your bigger forwards, period.



Assists don't win hockey games, goals do. You keep trying to hide from the fact that that outside your first line your other lines haven't produced either, the same criticism you passed on to the Devils and now trying to say it doesn't apply to the Flyers because one guy gets a ton of assists.

Any idea how biased this is coming across?? Or do you just not care?



Him and pelts35.
so you're saying teammates matter to making a good team? won't argue that... but i am suggesting that Marty's middle of the pack play relates back to Stevens' concussion almost directly. his struggles thus far this year compared to his previous seasons isn't something that came out of nowhere.

Assists friggin mean goals are getting scored. Handzus is a very underated passer and has produced 27 assists this year while NOT playing with the top line.

The Rags comparison works up until the point you look at the fact that they went in the TANK when Jagr started to struggle a bit. Flyers continued winning w/out Forsberg and Gagne in the lineup and then went on a 8-2-1 road trip when that line wasn't have a very good stretch.

agree to disagree dude... your team has 38 games to prove me wrong. 17 home, 21 on the road. no one on that team outside of the top 3 forwards scares me... that's just me.

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