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What are players worth and should we resign them?

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Old
01-17-2006, 09:22 AM
  #26
sarcastro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleuer
I just went through that post, actually not having any idea of the Wings roster...but what about Hudler for next season? He is playing great in the AHL, why not give him some ice time in the NHL? not 2 mins like he got this season....give him 10 mins a game and see what this kid can do...
He's going to have a hard time cracking the Wings' lineup because even at the AHL level they say he doesn't really do anything defensively and spends too much time hanging out at the offensive blue line. Think Geoff Sanderson, only smaller and not fast. My guess is he'll make it to the NHL but it will take him a few more years and stops with a few more teams before he either finds the organization that can properly motivate him, or he grows up a little and starts busting it on the backcheck, or some team (Columbus? Pittsburgh) that has equal disdain for defense will pick him up and play him regardless of his lax defensive play.

He could end up following a similar path to Cleary's.

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01-17-2006, 10:05 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
He's going to have a hard time cracking the Wings' lineup because even at the AHL level they say he doesn't really do anything defensively and spends too much time hanging out at the offensive blue line. Think Geoff Sanderson, only smaller and not fast. My guess is he'll make it to the NHL but it will take him a few more years and stops with a few more teams before he either finds the organization that can properly motivate him, or he grows up a little and starts busting it on the backcheck, or some team (Columbus? Pittsburgh) that has equal disdain for defense will pick him up and play him regardless of his lax defensive play.

He could end up following a similar path to Cleary's.
I hope that Babcock doesn't give up and motivate him to play also the defensive aspect of the game!

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01-17-2006, 01:21 PM
  #28
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sounds a bit like chistov...

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01-17-2006, 09:03 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack
Fisch is done... however, if Quincey is really ready then maybe we don't need to acquire anyone to be Schneider's partner. Alternately, Cheli could fit into the 7th (depth) spot that Rivers is holding down right now if we did land a big name UFA.
I think there is a big difference between what you're proposing and what Sarcastro is proposing. Playing 15 minutes a night is a Jason Woolley/Bret Lebda role. Being Schneider's fulltime partner is closer to 20 minutes a night and a lot more responsibility.

Quincey has had a very good rookie year in the AHL, but I'm still for leaving him there one more year to not just be a very good rookie, but a great cornerstone for a season.

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01-17-2006, 09:30 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98
I think there is a big difference between what you're proposing and what Sarcastro is proposing. Playing 15 minutes a night is a Jason Woolley/Bret Lebda role. Being Schneider's fulltime partner is closer to 20 minutes a night and a lot more responsibility.

Quincey has had a very good rookie year in the AHL, but I'm still for leaving him there one more year to not just be a very good rookie, but a great cornerstone for a season.
Lebda and Woolley play 12-13 minutes a night. Not even Nick's partner (Lilja) plays 20 minutes a night. If Quincey were Schneider's even strength partner (and assuming we have Kronwall next season), odds are Kyle wouldn't be playing more than 15 minutes a night unless he's good enough for special teams time.

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Old
01-17-2006, 11:43 PM
  #31
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I want a Russian unit like in the glory days!

We already have Datsyuk and Grigorenko... we need to aquire a left winger: Frolov, Kovalchuk, and Ovechkin would be hard to get. Maybe pry Brylin from New Jersey? Kavasha from NYI or Kozlov from Atlanta? Come to think of it the best solution would be to get Korolyuk cheaply NOW, and then get him over next year.

Then we get 2 defenders... something like Tyutin + Volchenkov would be optimal for a long time. The best scenario right now something like A. Markov + Zubov. Realistically we can end up with something like D. Markov - Tverdovsky or something of similar quality. Maybe take on Gonchar's contract?

Korolyuk-Datsyuk-Grigorenko (very realisitc, easy to make at this point)
Defender A - Defender B (Skill guy has to be in there and the latest breed of paino-mover Russian defencemen)

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01-18-2006, 12:52 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slitty
I want a Russian unit like in the glory days!

We already have Datsyuk and Grigorenko... we need to aquire a left winger: Frolov, Kovalchuk, and Ovechkin would be hard to get. Maybe pry Brylin from New Jersey? Kavasha from NYI or Kozlov from Atlanta? Come to think of it the best solution would be to get Korolyuk cheaply NOW, and then get him over next year.

Then we get 2 defenders... something like Tyutin + Volchenkov would be optimal for a long time. The best scenario right now something like A. Markov + Zubov. Realistically we can end up with something like D. Markov - Tverdovsky or something of similar quality. Maybe take on Gonchar's contract?

Korolyuk-Datsyuk-Grigorenko (very realisitc, easy to make at this point)
Defender A - Defender B (Skill guy has to be in there and the latest breed of paino-mover Russian defencemen)
I actually like that idea. I believe that he went back to Russia because of family issues! I don't know what they were but it will be difficult to get him here then. Doesn't San Jose still have his rights?

The other guys are impossible to get IMO!

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01-18-2006, 02:18 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleuer
I just went through that post, actually not having any idea of the Wings roster...but what about Hudler for next season? He is playing great in the AHL, why not give him some ice time in the NHL? not 2 mins like he got this season....give him 10 mins a game and see what this kid can do...

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01-18-2006, 02:21 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleuer
I just went through that post, actually not having any idea of the Wings roster...but what about Hudler for next season? He is playing great in the AHL, why not give him some ice time in the NHL? not 2 mins like he got this season....give him 10 mins a game and see what this kid can do...
Hudler is not an exceptional skater, and Babcock doesn't like Hudler's defense, so unless Hudler improves in these areas, his future in Detroit does not look bright.

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Old
01-18-2006, 02:53 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuJo#31
I actually like that idea. I believe that he went back to Russia because of family issues! I don't know what they were but it will be difficult to get him here then. Doesn't San Jose still have his rights?

The other guys are impossible to get IMO!

San Jose still owns his rights.

Korolyuk stated that he will be coming back to the NHL given the chance. He is mad at not being slected to the Olympic team almost as much as Jeremy Roenick, and said he believes this wouldnt have been the case if he was in the NHL. Expect to see him wearing an NHL team jersey next year, hopefully the Red Wing's with us giving up some AHL scrub to get him.

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Old
01-18-2006, 06:29 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98
I think there is a big difference between what you're proposing and what Sarcastro is proposing. Playing 15 minutes a night is a Jason Woolley/Bret Lebda role. Being Schneider's fulltime partner is closer to 20 minutes a night and a lot more responsibility.

Quincey has had a very good rookie year in the AHL, but I'm still for leaving him there one more year to not just be a very good rookie, but a great cornerstone for a season.
If you use Quincey as Schneider's partner even strength and have him out there killing some penalties, his ice time is going to be in the neighborhood of 15 minutes. He won't get PP time unless he shows NHL PP skills that so far it's doubtful he has, but he might. So the D would look like this-

ES
Lidstrom-Kronwall
Schneider-Quincey
Lebda-Lilja/Chelios/Woolley

PP
Lidstrom-Kronwall
Schneider-Williams/Lebda/Woolley

PK
Lidstrom-Kronwall
Schneider/Chelios/Lilja-Quincey

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Old
01-18-2006, 08:01 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slitty
I want a Russian unit like in the glory days!

We already have Datsyuk and Grigorenko... we need to aquire a left winger: Frolov, Kovalchuk, and Ovechkin would be hard to get. Maybe pry Brylin from New Jersey? Kavasha from NYI or Kozlov from Atlanta? Come to think of it the best solution would be to get Korolyuk cheaply NOW, and then get him over next year.

Then we get 2 defenders... something like Tyutin + Volchenkov would be optimal for a long time. The best scenario right now something like A. Markov + Zubov. Realistically we can end up with something like D. Markov - Tverdovsky or something of similar quality. Maybe take on Gonchar's contract?

Korolyuk-Datsyuk-Grigorenko (very realisitc, easy to make at this point)
Defender A - Defender B (Skill guy has to be in there and the latest breed of paino-mover Russian defencemen)
IMO, not a good idea
1. The Russian 5 that Wings have had were brought up within the disciplined Red Army system that preached collective hockey and thorough understanding of what another man supposed to do at each and every moment of play as a part of the unit.
Current Russian star players (Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Frolov) no longer went through such system and, although they great individually, not necessarily will be able to gel with each other better than, say, with any other Canadian or Swedish players. Dats, who will feed anyone, is probably the exception.
2. I do not think that Wings would want Kvasha or Korolyuk for that matter (first is a subpar player, second is not that good defensively)
3. It is going to be very hard (if possible at all) to pry Volchenkov or Tutin from their respective teams
4. Gonchar's contract is 100% prohibitive
5. Let's stick with Swedish Five!

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Old
01-18-2006, 08:42 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slitty
I want a Russian unit like in the glory days!

We already have Datsyuk and Grigorenko... we need to aquire a left winger: Frolov, Kovalchuk, and Ovechkin would be hard to get. Maybe pry Brylin from New Jersey? Kavasha from NYI or Kozlov from Atlanta? Come to think of it the best solution would be to get Korolyuk cheaply NOW, and then get him over next year.

Then we get 2 defenders... something like Tyutin + Volchenkov would be optimal for a long time. The best scenario right now something like A. Markov + Zubov. Realistically we can end up with something like D. Markov - Tverdovsky or something of similar quality. Maybe take on Gonchar's contract?

Korolyuk-Datsyuk-Grigorenko (very realisitc, easy to make at this point)
Defender A - Defender B (Skill guy has to be in there and the latest breed of paino-mover Russian defencemen)
About the only way to do this would be to sign Kozlov in the offseason and then sign either 2 UFA Dmen from Russia or bring Seluyanov and/or Bykov over from Russia. Problem is, Kozzie was very bitter when we dealt him in 01, and he probably wouldn't come back. Also, Seluyanov and Bykov would cost too much in salary demands and transfer/legal fees to bring over, and they're probably not good enough to justify the hassle anyway.

The Wings need stay at home bruisers on the blue line - show me a Russian D who's a UFA this summer that fits this description and I'll believe one exists.

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Old
01-18-2006, 06:06 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
About the only way to do this would be to sign Kozlov in the offseason and then sign either 2 UFA Dmen from Russia or bring Seluyanov and/or Bykov over from Russia. Problem is, Kozzie was very bitter when we dealt him in 01, and he probably wouldn't come back. Also, Seluyanov and Bykov would cost too much in salary demands and transfer/legal fees to bring over, and they're probably not good enough to justify the hassle anyway.

The Wings need stay at home bruisers on the blue line - show me a Russian D who's a UFA this summer that fits this description and I'll believe one exists.

Bykov?

He is going to the Olympics over Vishnevsky, Kalinin, Tverdovsky... we could get him back?

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Old
01-19-2006, 12:17 AM
  #40
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I've heard rumors Dmitri would like to come back here and play for us...who knows?

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01-19-2006, 06:22 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by kira
I've heard rumors Dmitri would like to come back here and play for us...who knows?
He said this last summer, but Holland was quoted somewhere as saying something like "we looked into it, but with the fees and his salary demands, it just wasn't a realistic option." So either Bykov will lower his salary demands (unlikely, since he makes quite a bit in Russia), or he'll stay where he is. The Wings have a lot of guys like him in the system anyway - if he were a bruiser then I wouldn't be opposed to it.

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01-19-2006, 12:39 PM
  #42
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Not to mention that Bykov wasnt all that great. He certainly isnt an upgrade over Lilja. And Bykov apparently has rediculous salary demands, especially for an non-descript 3rd pairing defensman.

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01-19-2006, 01:24 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Higgy4
Not to mention that Bykov wasnt all that great. He certainly isnt an upgrade over Lilja. And Bykov apparently has rediculous salary demands, especially for an non-descript 3rd pairing defensman.
I would say from what we saw his one year here, Bykov is certainly an upgrade over Lilja in terms of skill. He's soft, so they would lose a lot of size, but it's not like Lilja is driving guys through the boards or anything - he's just big. Bykov can contribute offensively, which Lilja certainly can't do. But again, Lilja pulls in about 600k, and Bykov would want a lot more, because he makes good money where he's at.

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01-19-2006, 08:04 PM
  #44
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By the sound of it, methinks 'tis not a wise idea for Dmitri to come back across the pond.

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01-19-2006, 11:24 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
I would say from what we saw his one year here, Bykov is certainly an upgrade over Lilja in terms of skill. He's soft, so they would lose a lot of size, but it's not like Lilja is driving guys through the boards or anything - he's just big. Bykov can contribute offensively, which Lilja certainly can't do. But again, Lilja pulls in about 600k, and Bykov would want a lot more, because he makes good money where he's at.
Well, we dont have a shortage of offensive defensmen. So, like I said...Bykov is not an upgrade over Lilja. No, Lilja doesnt drive guys through the boards and I agree that he should be more physical for a guy of his size. But I would still take him over Bykov for all the reasons we have mentioned. Bykov and his agent seem to think he is better than he actually is.

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01-19-2006, 11:44 PM
  #46
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From what I've seen of Bykov since his Detriot days, he is quite clearly a defensive defenseman. Sure he is not overly physical, but he plays the body and has superb but subtle stick defence.. From a pure defensive point of veiw, he is proabably the best defenseman in the RSL.

He was also taken for a defensive role to the Olympics: so I am assuming he is at least better than Vishnesvky and perhaps the rest of the guys he got the call over in Tverdovsky, Kalinin, Zyuzin, ect. I dont know how much he is worth, but I dont think he is a 3rd pairing guy anymore per say nor is he a #1 defenceman.

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01-20-2006, 12:01 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Slitty
From what I've seen of Bykov since his Detriot days, he is quite clearly a defensive defenseman. Sure he is not overly physical, but he plays the body and has superb but subtle stick defence.. From a pure defensive point of veiw, he is proabably the best defenseman in the RSL.

He was also taken for a defensive role to the Olympics: so I am assuming he is at least better than Vishnesvky and perhaps the rest of the guys he got the call over in Tverdovsky, Kalinin, Zyuzin, ect. I dont know how much he is worth, but I dont think he is a 3rd pairing guy anymore per say nor is he a #1 defenceman.

Well it will be interesting to see him in the Olympics. What little I remember of the guy, he often made positional mistakes and just looked lost half the time. I had less and less confidence in him as the season progressed. It is unfortunate that a guy of his size does not want to use it.

 
Old
01-20-2006, 06:14 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Higgy4
Well, we dont have a shortage of offensive defensmen. So, like I said...Bykov is not an upgrade over Lilja. No, Lilja doesnt drive guys through the boards and I agree that he should be more physical for a guy of his size. But I would still take him over Bykov for all the reasons we have mentioned. Bykov and his agent seem to think he is better than he actually is.
My point was that if you take both players and rate them, Bykov is probably better. He doesn't fit the Wings' current needs as well as Lilja, that's true - though Slitty says he's a really good defender, so who knows? Either way I think it's moot. He makes good loot in Russia and he won't see that sort of cash here.

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01-20-2006, 09:24 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
My point was that if you take both players and rate them, Bykov is probably better. He doesn't fit the Wings' current needs as well as Lilja, that's true - though Slitty says he's a really good defender, so who knows? Either way I think it's moot. He makes good loot in Russia and he won't see that sort of cash here.

Yeah, fair enough. I think we both agree that the Wings need to do better then both Lilja and Bykov.

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01-20-2006, 09:57 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Higgy4
Yeah, fair enough. I think we both agree that the Wings need to do better then both Lilja and Bykov.
Indeed. I would love to get Boynton in here, or failing that, I'm a big Keith Carney fan.

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