HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Buffalo Sabres
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Rasmus Ristolainen – Part 2

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-01-2016, 02:44 PM
  #1
WeLikeEich
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,149
vCash: 500
Rasmus Ristolainen – Part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by hizzoner View Post
Give him an 8 year deal at 6.5 if that will do it. Or 9 years at 7. If that won't do it then we are back to a bridge deal 4 years at 4.25.........
They are not allowed to give a deal longer than 8 years. The new CBA doesn't allow those super long deals anymore.

I agree though. Give an 8 year deal, or just do a bridge deal.


Last edited by joshjull: 10-02-2016 at 08:40 AM.
WeLikeEich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2016, 03:21 PM
  #2
Murky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOVIS View Post
I actually think this would be the ceiling, and one Murray does not want to hit.
Curious. Do you think Jones is better than Risto, or do you think he will be better?

In my opinion first is not true and the latter is not out of the question, although I would bet against it.

So why would Risto want to take a worse deal? Team discount? Sure. But in my opinion that is quite a discount obviously depending on term.

Now, I am not a Buffalo fan, but I can relate to wanting to lock players in good contracts. However I don't think that is a realistic ceiling for Risto. One that Murray and fans would want? Sure. But that is a different thing.

Now entertain a thought that Risto would sit out - as I might were I him if I was offered 5.4 for 6. What would be the ramifications? Are they worth the less than 1M in cap space? I would not think so but again my opinion is irrelevant and I am not even a Buffalo fan. But just think about it and give me your thoughts - is it worth it?

Anyway. Just my opinions.

Murky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2016, 04:03 PM
  #3
Heraldic
Registered User
 
Heraldic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murky View Post
Curious. Do you think Jones is better than Risto, or do you think he will be better?

In my opinion first is not true and the latter is not out of the question, although I would bet against it.

So why would Risto want to take a worse deal? Team discount? Sure. But in my opinion that is quite a discount obviously depending on term.

Now, I am not a Buffalo fan, but I can relate to wanting to lock players in good contracts. However I don't think that is a realistic ceiling for Risto. One that Murray and fans would want? Sure. But that is a different thing.

Now entertain a thought that Risto would sit out - as I might were I him if I was offered 5.4 for 6. What would be the ramifications? Are they worth the less than 1M in cap space? I would not think so but again my opinion is irrelevant and I am not even a Buffalo fan. But just think about it and give me your thoughts - is it worth it?

Anyway. Just my opinions.
Well, I think that Barkov is a better player than Nugent-Hopkins or Brandon Saad, yet he accepted a cheaper deal. I also think that Filip Forsberg is a better winger than Jordan Eberle. This, of course, given the time of their second contracts. I also think that Hamilton is not a better player than Morgan Rielly, yet he got a clearly more valuable contract.

Jones has more games under his belt. Jones has been more consistent, yet his development path is not as uptrending as Risto's. I do prefer Risto between them, but they have a lot of similarities, and are pretty comparable. Risto also has one RFA year more.

You mean by "sitting out" sitting the whole season or just the start of it? If the first, I highly doubt that is happening - for multiple of reasons. And I absolutely would lose handful of games from Risto this season, if it means about 1 million more cap space for the next +5 seasons.

Heraldic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2016, 04:27 PM
  #4
Murky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraldic View Post
Well, I think that Barkov is a better player than Nugent-Hopkins or Brandon Saad, yet he accepted a cheaper deal. I also think that Filip Forsberg is a better winger than Jordan Eberle. This, of course, given the time of their second contracts. I also think that Hamilton is not a better player than Morgan Rielly, yet he got a clearly more valuable contract.

Jones has more games under his belt. Jones has been more consistent, yet his development path is not as uptrending as Risto's. I do prefer Risto between them, but they have a lot of similarities, and are pretty comparable. Risto also has one RFA year more.

You mean by "sitting out" sitting the whole season or just the start of it? If the first, I highly doubt that is happening - for multiple of reasons. And I absolutely would lose handful of games from Risto this season, if it means about 1 million more cap space for the next +5 seasons.
Thanks for a quality response. Good points although I apparently rate Risto higher than you do.

By sitting out I meant more like sitting out until things resolve unfavourably rather than a few games. A few games would of course be worth 1M in cap space, but there is a larger picture here from a risk management perspective in my opinion. Playing hardball with the centerpiece of the team such as projected and current #1 D for a few hundred thousands could pay off, as you describe. It could also backfire in a very bad way if things escalate.

So far Risto seems to be playing nice, which means little since he hasn't signed. Murray's recent comment is not quite as nice, while the same fact of no contract still applies to him as much. This lends to all kinds of speculation, which of course is just that and nothing more. Still, I guess what I am trying to say is, I would think it is starting to look a bit worrisome.

Murky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2016, 07:52 PM
  #5
JOVIS*
☹DOWN GOES EICHEL☹
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fruit Belt, Buffalo
Country: Congo-Brazzaville
Posts: 339
vCash: 500
In some respects it doesn't even matter if Ristolainin is better than for instance, Jones (altho i happen to think hes not). At the end of the day The team has almost all.of the leverage, and for sveral more years too. TM said on WGR that he is not 'lowballing' Risto and I believe him. Lowballing is a relative term though and many on this forum clearly think 4.5 is 'lowball'. The Sabres are bidding against themselves if they go much higher. GMTM also said they're very open to a bridge deal now. The CBA allows teams to own a player for 7 years. Ristolainen has so many years of RFA left that he isn't even close to having arbitration rights. There is no reason for the Sabres to cave and pay him big, that totally undermines the CBA and would be dumb from a team building perspective. A guy like eichel or McDavid or Ekblad in FL I see as a bit different. A truly generational type talent you want to lock up as long as possible and make as happy as possible. Ristolainen is (imo ofc) merely good, on a team withough much defensive depth.

JOVIS* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2016, 08:01 PM
  #6
Aladyyn
eyes up
 
Aladyyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Czech Republic
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 7,099
vCash: 500
Does the team have all the leverage though. Murray has gone out and said the goal is to make the playoffs this year. If Risto misses 15 games because of a contract, that's not happening and TM is going to take the heat. It's not that black and white

Aladyyn is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2016, 08:28 PM
  #7
JOVIS*
☹DOWN GOES EICHEL☹
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fruit Belt, Buffalo
Country: Congo-Brazzaville
Posts: 339
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aladyyn View Post
Does the team have all the leverage though. Murray has gone out and said the goal is to make the playoffs this year. If Risto misses 15 games because of a contract, that's not happening and TM is going to take the heat. It's not that black and white
Agreed... but whatever backlash comes from a slow start or Risto-anxiety will presumably be short term... and an extra 6-8 year contract hit would hurt the team exponentially more. They don't have ALL the leverage for sure...just depends how much PR damage they're willing to take the longer it may or may not go

JOVIS* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2016, 09:53 PM
  #8
Der Jaeger
O'Reichelainenhart
 
Der Jaeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 5,314
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraldic View Post
If you listened Murray's latest on WGR, you noticed how he emphasized having depth (and it wasn't the first time he has done that).

If you want to create depth, you need to avoid giving bad contracts AND you need to squeeze as much as possible out of RFA years. The problem is not that we're not able to sign Jack/Sam. The problem is, that if we just sign them whatever they ever want, without using the leverage of RFA years, we are really soon under the situation where we have no cap space for depth.

If we give Ekblad money to Risto, for example, there is absolutely no way of asking Eichel/Reinhart to accept something other than top money. But if you get at least one big gun under at least somehow team friendly contract, you will have easier time getting the others. Just like Yzerman had Hedman after Stamkos.

And regarding Risto's RFA years, yes, he has 5 RFA years left (his first year didn't count as an accrued season).
Thanks on the RFA years.

I get the desire to create depth. Getting Risto to sign for $5.5M vs. $6M (or even $6.5M) doesn't do anything for Eichel/Reinhart. Nor does it do much to create depth.

You create depth by spending money on centers and defensemen, then rotating ELC and RFA wingers into and out of the line-up as they come up and then price out of the roster. If you're giving out big deals to wingers, the need to be exceedingly careful is great. I'm cool with Okposo to a degree. Buffalo needs to move Kane, Ennis, Moulson, etc. at the TDL to replenish the pipeline.

Der Jaeger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2016, 03:47 AM
  #9
Plural
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 29,283
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraldic View Post
Let's not forget that Risto has 5 RFA years ahead of him instead of 4. That should have a big impact considering how the prices of UFA years are rising opposed to RFA years.

Considering Ekblad's contract I think the biggest question is that did they value the UFA years so high that it ultimately led into such a high cap hit. Or did they value the RFA years pretty high as well.

Like I have said, I do stand behind Murray on this about hi, being tough. I don't think that a figure of 4,5 is a proper one, but I want him to get as low as possible (especially Risto having 5 RFA years). If we end up giving big money to Risto, it is pretty impossible to get Jack and Sam to get anywhere near team friendly contracts. But if Risto gets a team friendly contract, it is easier to try to get them under those kind of contracts.
Yeah. You need to pick you battles and if I were the GM, this would be the battle I'd pick. Because it sets the tone for the future and you guys need to have team friendly contracts for the stars or you might end up having problems. Is this battle bit over the top if we consider Ristolainen only? Sure. But from the whole team dynamics POV, it's a risk worth taking.

That said, Risto is definitely worth north 4.5. I would guess they end up somewhere around 5/5.5 and I think that would count as a win in Murrays column.

Plural is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2016, 07:55 AM
  #10
jc17
Registered User
 
jc17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,291
vCash: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Thanks on the RFA years.

I get the desire to create depth. Getting Risto to sign for $5.5M vs. $6M (or even $6.5M) doesn't do anything for Eichel/Reinhart. Nor does it do much to create depth.

You create depth by spending money on centers and defensemen, then rotating ELC and RFA wingers into and out of the line-up as they come up and then price out of the roster. If you're giving out big deals to wingers, the need to be exceedingly careful is great. I'm cool with Okposo to a degree. Buffalo needs to move Kane, Ennis, Moulson, etc. at the TDL to replenish the pipeline.
Week got Okposos and the Sabres' reputation is still getting better, but I don't think we can expect to pull of the Chicago model right away.

jc17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2016, 10:14 AM
  #11
SabresFanNorthPortFL
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: North Port, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 2,191
vCash: 500
Have him sign a one year, $3.8 mil contract for this year today, the sign him to a $6 x 8 year deal tomorrow.

Murray gets one year cheap, Risto then get paid.....

SabresFanNorthPortFL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2016, 11:20 AM
  #12
gallagt01
Registered User
 
gallagt01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sloan
Posts: 11,656
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFanNorthPortFL View Post
Have him sign a one year, $3.8 mil contract for this year today, the sign him to a $6 x 8 year deal tomorrow.

Murray gets one year cheap, Risto then get paid.....
I'm sure this post is tongue-in-cheek on some level, but I'm almost certain Risto wouldn't be allowed to sign the second deal until after Jan. 1

gallagt01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2016, 11:26 AM
  #13
Wisent42
Registered User
 
Wisent42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Södertälje
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,977
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFanNorthPortFL View Post
Have him sign a one year, $3.8 mil contract for this year today, the sign him to a $6 x 8 year deal tomorrow.

Murray gets one year cheap, Risto then get paid.....
If that was even possible, the only thing it would do would be having both parts walk away from the table pretending they haven't backed down. The problem with such a deal is that this year isn't a problem. It's next year, when Eichel and Reinhart are up for new contracts. That's when we start needing the cap space. Saving some this year does nothing. So if anything, it should be a one year deal for $10M now in order to get a slightly cheaper long term deal after.

Wisent42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2016, 11:28 AM
  #14
JOVIS*
☹DOWN GOES EICHEL☹
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fruit Belt, Buffalo
Country: Congo-Brazzaville
Posts: 339
vCash: 500
Don't think anyone has posted the Yahoo puck Daddy article on Risto vs Trouba/Lindholm from a few days ago... clearly Ryan Lambert is NOT a fan

"RFA defensemen: Trouba vs. Lindholm vs. Ristolainen"
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/rfa-def...143026363.html


JOVIS* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2016, 11:28 AM
  #15
Paxon
⚔Z E M G U S⚔
 
Paxon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Laurel, MD
Country: United States
Posts: 25,444
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFanNorthPortFL View Post
Have him sign a one year, $3.8 mil contract for this year today, the sign him to a $6 x 8 year deal tomorrow.

Murray gets one year cheap, Risto then get paid.....
But Murray doesn't care about this year being cheap. All that would do is save Pegula money. It doesn't do anything to save cap going forward. As has been pointed out, he wouldn't be able to sign that 8 year deal until the offseason.

Paxon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2016, 12:05 PM
  #16
Havok89
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,807
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOVIS View Post
Don't think anyone has posted the Yahoo puck Daddy article on Risto vs Trouba/Lindholm from a few days ago... clearly Ryan Lambert is NOT a fan

"RFA defensemen: Trouba vs. Lindholm vs. Ristolainen"
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/rfa-def...143026363.html

In the article he states Trouba had great analytics because Maurice plays him properly, sheltered by Buff taking the hardest minutes, and wonders why Dan Bylsma doesn't do the same for Risto. Buffalo doesn't have a defenseman as good as Buff to shelter

So all in all, Trouba has the higher potential because he excelled in a sheltered role, and Risto struggled defensively while being fed to the wolves? The whole article seems to be contradicting. He's comparing two similar young players' analytics, who played in completely different situations.

Havok89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2016, 04:31 PM
  #17
haseoke39
**** Cycle 4 Eichel
 
haseoke39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 11,047
vCash: 500
Dear Murray,

Your job is simple: blink.

Sincerely,

Everyone who wants to see the playoffs again

haseoke39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2016, 05:34 PM
  #18
tsujimoto74
Moderator
 
tsujimoto74's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Rochester
Country: United States
Posts: 15,720
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Dear Murray,

Your job is simple: blink.

Sincerely,

Everyone who wants to see the playoffs again
Eh, I think it depends on whether the gap is just on money or whether the team and Risto differ on term too. A 5-year contract would be bad news (buys 0 UFA years), and a 6-year term wouldn't be much better. I'd be fine with bridging him (though that could be costly a couple years from now, so it's not my preferred choice) or giving him 8 years. That stuff in the middle sets us up to either have to pay a boatload of money to keep him, or lose him as a young UFA.

tsujimoto74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2016, 06:02 PM
  #19
dkollidas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,508
vCash: 500
I think a big difference here might Ben the fact that Risto's camp see'/ the Ekblad deal, and says "well, if he gets $7.5Mper over 8 years, we should get around $6.5M on that type of deal"

Whereas the organization is looking at it and saying "well, Florida also is buying 4yrs of Unrestricted free agency, which is half the contract, but we're only buying 3yrs of UFA status." which is why they may feel something in the low to mid "5's" is more reasonable.


And to those saying 500K-1M isn't a big deal... it might not be now, but if you save $500K-$1M on Ristolainen, 500K-$1M on Reinhart and 500K-$1M on Eichel... that's $1.5M$3M to spend towards upgrading the roster elsewhere, when Buffalo will likely be a cap team. That's the difference between being able to afford a $4M defensemen versus a $5.5M-$7M defenseman. Or the difference between one $3M winger versus two $3M wingers.

dkollidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2016, 06:55 PM
  #20
krt88
Registered User
 
krt88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 3,150
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to krt88
At this stage I'd be trying to get him to signs 1 year 5.5m deal. Let him earn the 7 year 49m deal.

krt88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-03-2016, 03:51 AM
  #21
Dogewow
Such Profile
 
Dogewow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Rochester
Country: United States
Posts: 2,366
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Havok89 View Post
In the article he states Trouba had great analytics because Maurice plays him properly, sheltered by Buff taking the hardest minutes, and wonders why Dan Bylsma doesn't do the same for Risto. Buffalo doesn't have a defenseman as good as Buff to shelter

So all in all, Trouba has the higher potential because he excelled in a sheltered role, and Risto struggled defensively while being fed to the wolves? The whole article seems to be contradicting. He's comparing two similar young players' analytics, who played in completely different situations.
It's articles like that that make me hate analytics at times. It's astonishing how few people use basic level context when dropping the analytics argument.


Last edited by Dogewow: 10-03-2016 at 04:02 AM.
Dogewow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2016, 12:30 AM
  #22
Plural
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 29,283
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
I think a big difference here might Ben the fact that Risto's camp see'/ the Ekblad deal, and says "well, if he gets $7.5Mper over 8 years, we should get around $6.5M on that type of deal"

Whereas the organization is looking at it and saying "well, Florida also is buying 4yrs of Unrestricted free agency, which is half the contract, but we're only buying 3yrs of UFA status." which is why they may feel something in the low to mid "5's" is more reasonable.


And to those saying 500K-1M isn't a big deal... it might not be now, but if you save $500K-$1M on Ristolainen, 500K-$1M on Reinhart and 500K-$1M on Eichel... that's $1.5M$3M to spend towards upgrading the roster elsewhere, when Buffalo will likely be a cap team. That's the difference between being able to afford a $4M defensemen versus a $5.5M-$7M defenseman. Or the difference between one $3M winger versus two $3M wingers.
Yeah, and watching the past playoffs, it's clear that you need depth to win the big series. Getting those quality players in the smaller roles can be the deciding factor between a first round exit and Stanley Cup finals.

So, getting your big guns all signed 500k-1M lower might be a huge deal. Doesn't seem much when thinking about one contract. But spread it around with your 3-5 best players and you might be looking at at big difference in your middle-6.

Plural is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2016, 03:08 AM
  #23
Reddawg
Registered User
 
Reddawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rochester, NY
Country: Scotland
Posts: 3,720
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by krt88 View Post
At this stage I'd be trying to get him to signs 1 year 5.5m deal. Let him earn the 7 year 49m deal.
That's exactly how PK ended up making $9 million a year.

Reddawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2016, 08:12 AM
  #24
JOVIS*
☹DOWN GOES EICHEL☹
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fruit Belt, Buffalo
Country: Congo-Brazzaville
Posts: 339
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddawg View Post
That's exactly how PK ended up making $9 million a year.
that and the small detail that PK won the Norris trophy during the bridge deal, which is highly unlikely for Rasmus in the next couple years on a team in transition....


JOVIS* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2016, 08:27 AM
  #25
Aladyyn
eyes up
 
Aladyyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Czech Republic
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 7,099
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOVIS View Post
that and the small detail that PK won the Norris trophy during the bridge deal, which is highly unlikely for Rasmus in the next couple years on a team in transition....

Ah, the one season where Josh Gorges was a positive possession player. Everyone was so astonished they gave PK the Norris

Aladyyn is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:43 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.