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Rasmus Ristolainen – Part 2

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Old
10-05-2016, 03:52 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Beerz View Post
You really have to ask that?
i should have said... LONG TERM downside. obviously the team will suffer in the extreme short term for missing its best defenseman, and might even miss the playoffs because of it. this is in the context of an 8 year deal as it was posed...6.5 for 8.

you willing to pay for 8 more years for a little short term satisfaction after all the suffering? if we were some sort of lock for the playoffs this year i might think different

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10-05-2016, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JOVIS View Post
i should have said... LONG TERM downside. obviously the team will suffer in the extreme short term for missing its best defenseman, and might even miss the playoffs because of it. this is in the context of an 8 year deal as it was posed...6.5 for 8.

you willing to pay for 8 more years for a little short term satisfaction after all the suffering? if we were some sort of lock for the playoffs this year i might think different
The downside is alienating your best, by far, defenseman. Possibly turning things into a ROR in Colorado type situation. Where Risto no longer wants to be here long term.

I have no idea how likely that is but you wanted to know a possible long term downside.

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10-05-2016, 04:56 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The downside is alienating your best, by far, defenseman. Possibly turning things into a ROR in Colorado type situation. Where Risto no longer wants to be here long term.

I have no idea how likely that is but you wanted to know a possible long term downside.
lol, true.

i feel like you guys are being exceedingly literal. ROR wasn't asking Joe Sakic to practice without a contract or continuously saying he wanted to be in Colorado long term. I think TM is a lot more competent a GM than the train wreck that has been (at least Roy era) the Avalanche. Its more likely than not that even if it went as nuclear as that it would end up more Hamonic/Drouin than ROR!


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10-06-2016, 08:30 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by JOVIS View Post
you willing to pay for 8 more years for a little short term satisfaction after all the suffering? if we were some sort of lock for the playoffs this year i might think different
I am only going to speak for myself and not the poster you quoted. For me, what you are saying makes sense. We have a different view on Risto's value in where I value him a good deal more than Seth Jones and you don't, but we agree on the basic terms of the situation.

However for me the risk is alienating a RHD realistic top flight #1 D at 21. BUF is damn lucky to have one. This can't be stressed enough, it is a commodity you pretty much cannot acquite except through draft and with luck as well as skill. I would not risk it for 500k or whatever they are apart - for me it is not a short term gain BUF should be after. On the contrary.

Here is a piece that will very likely be one of the hardest things to acquire for an up and coming team hoping to challenge in the future. You have it. Playing hard ball with that is not wise IMO.

Eichel and Risto are the most important things for the future of the Sabres. Pay them keep them happy and developing and that is much more important for you than 500k in cap space. That cap space you can save elsewhere and the options for that are limitless. But try to acquire an eichel or a risto - good luck with that.

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10-06-2016, 08:53 AM
  #55
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I won't cover things that other posters did, i.e. damaging this season in an enormous way, or the long term issues of having a tenacious contract negotiation with a star player, mike milbury anyone.

But regarding the cap hell that was noted regarding boston... that team didn't fall apart because of slight overpayments to star players. Find me a team that is struggling to make their cap work because of an extra 500k on a star. Chicago is as close as that gets and arguably they are overpaying their 2 guys by a million each at least, not to mention a **** ton on a goalie.

Boston would be fine if they hadn't given away a super star for a quarter. Their real problem had a lot more to do with "culture" than cap.

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10-06-2016, 08:54 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Murky View Post
However for me the risk is alienating a RHD realistic top flight #1 D at 21. BUF is damn lucky to have one. This can't be stressed enough, it is a commodity you pretty much cannot acquite except through draft and with luck as well as skill. I would not risk it for 500k or whatever they are apart - for me it is not a short term gain BUF should be after. On the contrary.
we generally agree, but i guess i keep circling back to just HOW realistic the idea of alienating Rasmus is. I mean... what would that look like to you in a realistic worst case scenario? We have all been burned as Sabres fans by either losing our top talent or being shunned by top UFAs, etc... but this is just way different. alienating Risto looks like ________ to you?

They own him for years. He is by all accounts a good kid w good character who likes Buffalo. I just cant see any scenario where "they only* offered him 5.25 million" ... which leads to him somehow blowing up the synergy of the team that's being built. It sounds harsh I guess but at the end of the day it matters very little in the big picture what he wants or what he and his agent do. He will be here one way or another, at least for several more years regardless. Acquiring franchise D is definitely not easy or a perfect science, but can't be done unless you actually try to. IE, taking Olli Juelevi/ Mikhail Sergachev over Nylander. Or Toronto taking Noah Hanifin over little Mitch Marner, etc. !

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10-06-2016, 09:29 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by sabrebuild View Post
I won't cover things that other posters did, i.e. damaging this season in an enormous way, or the long term issues of having a tenacious contract negotiation with a star player, mike milbury anyone.

But regarding the cap hell that was noted regarding boston... that team didn't fall apart because of slight overpayments to star players. Find me a team that is struggling to make their cap work because of an extra 500k on a star. Chicago is as close as that gets and arguably they are overpaying their 2 guys by a million each at least, not to mention a **** ton on a goalie.

Boston would be fine if they hadn't given away a super star for a quarter. Their real problem had a lot more to do with "culture" than cap.
Boston was in cap hell after winning a Cup. I think most of us would not mind that situation.

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10-06-2016, 09:39 AM
  #58
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Boston was in cap hell after winning a Cup. I think most of us would not mind that situation.
Look at those rosters, the problem deals were not bergeron or Chara. And it goes without saying if you win a cup things will get tight.

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10-06-2016, 09:41 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by JOVIS View Post
we generally agree, but i guess i keep circling back to just HOW realistic the idea of alienating Rasmus is. I mean... what would that look like to you in a realistic worst case scenario? We have all been burned as Sabres fans by either losing our top talent or being shunned by top UFAs, etc... but this is just way different. alienating Risto looks like ________ to you?

They own him for years. He is by all accounts a good kid w good character who likes Buffalo. I just cant see any scenario where "they only* offered him 5.25 million" ... which leads to him somehow blowing up the synergy of the team that's being built. It sounds harsh I guess but at the end of the day it matters very little in the big picture what he wants or what he and his agent do. He will be here one way or another, at least for several more years regardless. Acquiring franchise D is definitely not easy or a perfect science, but can't be done unless you actually try to. IE, taking Olli Juelevi/ Mikhail Sergachev over Nylander. Or Toronto taking Noah Hanifin over little Mitch Marner, etc. !
Today i agree things have not gotten out of hand yet. Come dec, your worst case scenario things will be different.

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10-06-2016, 10:42 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Aladyyn View Post
Boston was in cap hell after winning a Cup. I think most of us would not mind that situation.
thats why i am a bit torn on the Boston comparable. on one hand I truly believe Peter Chiarelli has made one of the worst trades in NHL history in the Seguin to Dallas deal. All for what? He overslept a couple times and liked Nathan Horton's wife...who doesnt? He also dramatically over paid their "heart and soul" guys. Chris Kelly deal specifically stands out to me. When he signed my jaw dropped I couldnt believe it. THey gave him an 'A' and he was a locker room favorite, but OMG @ that deal. And then the over payment of Tuuka who had "paid his dues" waiting behind Tim Thomas (who retired to his bunker in Colorado!). Lots more bad contracts in there.

In one sense I agree w the poster who said over paying Risto would be different, because it would be overpaying for stars and not scrubs and thats ok.... for this I say SEE: David Krejci deal. Or even the Lucic pre-LA Kings deal. Except that these were not super young RFAs that the B's had absolute control over for years to come like Sabs do w Risto, they were established vets w leverage when these deals were signed!

As much as i want to KILL Chiarelli as a GM (even now, [email protected] trade) ... he DID build the big bad Bruins team that won a cup, went to the finals again, and could have made 1 or 2 more finals in that span. And that's certainly not nothing. I agree, if onlyyyy Buffalo could have such a fate as that we could all die happy !

Still, that sort of cap jail is REAL and a cautionary tale for Tim Murray and the Sabres...


reminiscing about the rise and fall of my big bad Bruins gives a perfect excuse to post the most epic GIF in NHL history (if only Greg Campbell hit this hard in his fights he may have actually won one, once) <3



Last edited by JOVIS*: 10-06-2016 at 10:52 AM.
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10-06-2016, 01:07 PM
  #61
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Is there an expectation now of Rasmus missing games? Curious for purely selfish (fantasy) reasons.


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10-06-2016, 01:56 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
No one said you don't have permission when you asked this question 2 weeks ago. (i think it was you, lol).

You want to be nervous now? 2 weeks ago? 2 months ago? Go for it.

I personally won't be nervous until he sits out 35-40 regular season games. And i won't ask permission to be nervous before or after that time.

He'll get signed. And it will be for more than a few are willing to sign him for. Nature of the business.
LOL Half the season. He misses the opener and I'll be pissed. This is a borderline playoff team, not much room for error.

As a STH, I can't afford another year of below average hockey.

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10-06-2016, 01:58 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by TheDoldrums View Post
Is there an expectation now of Rasmus missing games? Curious for purely selfish (fantasy) reasons.
not sure? I personally don't expect him to miss games.... but that's because I think Risto's side will cave more than GMTM. its anyone's guess though. I wonder what others here think. Weird how there are so amny big name RFAs, you hafta think maybe they all get taken care of one way or another a day or two before opening night?

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10-06-2016, 02:15 PM
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So we were talking about Subban right? These are Subban's stats with Gorges in his post-Norris season.

CF60 53.41
CA60 58.90
CF% 47.6

Is Risto really that far from this level? Stats for comparison

CF60 49.40
CA60 59.34
CF% 45.4

Defensively he's almost there ))

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10-06-2016, 02:17 PM
  #65
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Is there an expectation now of Rasmus missing games? Curious for purely selfish (fantasy) reasons.
At this point, I always assume a player is going to miss games until he signs. This could go on until the end of October, or end tonight.

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10-06-2016, 02:43 PM
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Ok, looking one level deeper, this is Josh Gorges' impact on PK Subban's possession stats in each of the 3 seasons they played significant time together, compared to PK's stats away from Gorges.

2011-12
-10.31 CF60
-7.43 CA60

Gave up less shots but stifled offense even more. Oh but away from Subban Gorges has a monstrous 66.34 CA60.

2012-13
-5.32 CF60
+3.99 CA60

Not even Gorges could stop Subban from posting ridiculous numbers in his Norris-winning season, no matter how hard he tried.

2013-14
-5.18 CF60
+2.25 CA60

Skewed by Subban playing a lot with Boullion who was even worse at shot suppression than Gorges the previous season.

But no, playing with Josh Gorges totally doesn't explain Ristolainen's numbers, of course.

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10-06-2016, 05:37 PM
  #67
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LOL Half the season. He misses the opener and I'll be pissed. This is a borderline playoff team, not much room for error.

As a STH, I can't afford another year of below average hockey.
I am a STH as well. And having Risto signed/not signed will not make a team play below average/above average. The team is perfectly capable to playing below/above average with/without him.

He's not the linchpin to the season. No ONE player is.

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10-06-2016, 05:40 PM
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Ristolainen has been practicing with the team and skated with Josh Gorges, his partner for most of last season, on Thursday.

"I'm acting right now in practice and playing [him] on a pair like he's going to be there," Bylsma said. "That might change next week when we get to practice if he still remains unsigned."
is this the reason Risto doesn't want to sign?

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10-06-2016, 05:45 PM
  #69
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I am a STH as well. And having Risto signed/not signed will not make a team play below average/above average. The team is perfectly capable to playing below/above average with/without him.

He's not the linchpin to the season. No ONE player is.
While true, he's the most valuable player on the team by a long shot as long as the rest of the defense looks so spotty. I'd bet heavily on us missing the playoffs without him.

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10-06-2016, 05:49 PM
  #70
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is this the reason Risto doesn't want to sign?
You mean because he's been paired with Gorges in practice, as if he'll be paired with Gorges in the regular season? If that's what you mean...

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10-06-2016, 06:05 PM
  #71
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Did I just read that Bylsma plans to play Gorges-Risto again... I don't know if my hate for Bylsma could reach another level.... But that would totally do it.

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10-06-2016, 06:08 PM
  #72
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Did I just read that Bylsma plans to play Gorges-Risto again... I don't know if my hate for Bylsma could reach another level.... But that would totally do it.
He's going to bomb and fail. And fail and bomb.

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10-06-2016, 06:09 PM
  #73
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Did I just read that Bylsma plans to play Gorges-Risto again... I don't know if my hate for Bylsma could reach another level.... But that would totally do it.
this might be a brilliant strategy to keep the bridge deal he's about to sign from turning into a PK Subban situation...

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10-06-2016, 06:22 PM
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this might be a brilliant strategy to keep the bridge deal he's about to sign from turning into a PK Subban situation...
And after the bridge deal we can fire Bylsma

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10-06-2016, 06:24 PM
  #75
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TM has a week to get this done. I don't think it's gonna happen. He's gonna start to miss games. **** me.

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