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CuJo sent to minors

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Old
10-20-2003, 04:19 PM
  #26
Mack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incawg
cujo will play friday
vs. who?

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10-20-2003, 04:29 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Mack
vs. who?

Utah I heard.

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10-20-2003, 05:08 PM
  #28
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Like I said on the Wings board, it would be BAD if he got bombed in his AHL game. Oh man, that'd be really bad.

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10-20-2003, 05:12 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Yes, he makes too much money, but if money was not an issue, IMO he would be an upgrade for this season for the following teams:

Coyotes
No, not even by a long shot.

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10-20-2003, 05:15 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Masao
Funny how two years ago how he was absolutely worshipped by Leafs fans as nubbed the best goalie in the world. Wow.
"nubbed"? What language is that and what exactly are you trying to say?

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10-20-2003, 05:17 PM
  #31
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How the mighty have fallen. Should have stayed with the Leafs Cujo.

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Old
10-20-2003, 05:17 PM
  #32
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8 million to play in the ahl and people think the rangers are crazy! cujo will not be traded to the rangers. dunham is a good goalie and dunham is not making 8 million a year. i wish calgary would trade for him with the wings picking up is salary

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10-20-2003, 06:40 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Jellybean
How the mighty have fallen. Should have stayed with the Leafs Cujo.
Why? He's got the sweetest deal in hockey. Eight million smackeroos never came so easy.


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10-20-2003, 07:13 PM
  #34
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For the purpose of rehabilitating the ankle this is the best move he and the team could make. This will be the test of that foot and how it's going to stand up to a game. I think it's a wise move on Cujo's part...it will tell him what he needs to know.

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10-20-2003, 08:07 PM
  #35
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This isn't Curtis Joseph's fault.

He wasn't bad last season, the Wings were knocked out by a team that came within one game of winning it all, and the whole team sucked. Ken Holland has showed very little compassion for this situation, and if this assignment is anything more than a conditioning deal, I think he's a disgrace for abandoning a guy without a second chance in such a humiliating, classless way. I hope the Hasek come back backfires on his team.

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10-20-2003, 08:13 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksheit
how discraceful for him
an 8 mill goalie hasta play in the AHL. bahahaha
o man thats bad
Speaking of which, how about Irbe's some 6 mill in the ECHL

He's like worth more than the league itself.

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Old
10-20-2003, 08:16 PM
  #37
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I wouldn't take Cujo over Vokoun either, maybe at one time he was better, but not right now, IMHO.

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Old
10-20-2003, 08:31 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
This isn't Curtis Joseph's fault.

He wasn't bad last season, the Wings were knocked out by a team that came within one game of winning it all, and the whole team sucked. Ken Holland has showed very little compassion for this situation, and if this assignment is anything more than a conditioning deal, I think he's a disgrace for abandoning a guy without a second chance in such a humiliating, classless way. I hope the Hasek come back backfires on his team.
I feel bad for CUJO and agree with the poster who says he is now starting to be underrated around here.

That being said, I don't think Holland is a disgrace AT ALL. I think one-way contracts that can't be cancelled by the teams suck. The players have it all from the standpoint of garanteed contracts. They have it going their way all the time and that just shouldn't be the case.

Are GMs in other sports who are allowed to just let players go disgraces? Of course they aren't. But in hockey you can't do that.

Is Holland living up to the contractual obligations? Apparently he is. No breach of contracts whatsoever, CUJO is getting paid.

I understand the situation sucks for CUJO. He is free to work something out with the Wings if he can't take the current situation. I'm sure they'll let him walk away if he decides to just scratch the deal.

Nobody is holding a gun to his head. This is one of those moment when you think about your life, your career, your family and take the best decision. What is the best decision? I can't answer for CUJO.

I know what I would do, and that's definitly not what he is doing right now. I'm certainly not going to judge him but I won't judge Holland either for thinking about his team first and foremost.

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Old
10-20-2003, 10:40 PM
  #39
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Change the Buyout Policy

As long as Cujo agrees to play where ever he gets assigned, he'll get paid his 8 million, which will probably keep the Wings from adding anymore contract during the season.

If Holland thinks a team will pick up Cujo if they start poorly, he's really misreading the market. Given the likely scenario of a lockout next September, teams won't want to have an 8 million dollar goalie on their hands until they know the parameters of the CBA.

I would anticipate that one of the Issues the Owners will address in the next CBA is the % of a Buyout Clause. Currently, it sits at 2/3 of the Remainder of the Contract. This is one issue the League needs to get rectified. Need to cut that down to under 50%.

I do think that GM's should have to pay for their mistakes, but still, 2/3 of this mega million dollar deals is huge.

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Old
10-21-2003, 04:43 AM
  #40
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Holland isn't screwing Cujo. Hasek did. Sure Detroit could have let Hasek walk as a UFA. But thats just not smart. Hasek has played very well this year so far. Regardless of the last two games. Your goalie cant stop every 2 on 1.


Plus, from what i heard in Detroit, it's just a move to get Cujo some playing time. No team can afford to have a goalie shake off the rust in a regular season game. If Cujo didn't miss training camp and the preseason he would be in Detroit.

Cujo still has some trade value. He is still a good goalie. And Detroit is willing to eat alot of that contract. The return will depend on how much is Detroit willing to eat. I still say they will will eat atleast half of his contract this year. And maybe a 1/3 next year.

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Old
10-21-2003, 06:30 AM
  #41
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I still dont see anyone trading for Cujo. This is not a knock on his abilities as a goalie, heck he did a lot for the Leafs (whose D isn't the best) and played well for Detroit.

The issue (only reason he is still in Detroit) is the $$ on the contract. As a previous poster pointed out, 8 mill is a lot to tie up post CBA w/o knowing what will happen/type of cap is in place.

I know some feel that the NHL may allow a year or two for most teams to get under the cap, but they also may not. It is too risky to tie up 8 mill in an older goalie. (Most teams have the majority of the player contracts up at the end of the season and I think a hold will be place thoughout the league until the CBA has been negociated).

Maybe Detroit will buy him out, but I guess we will see as time goes on.

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Old
10-21-2003, 06:47 AM
  #42
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Vlad. I have to take issue with some of what you are saying. It is obvious that this is a negotiating tactic by Holland to try and get Cujo to loosen up a bit. Not a slap in the face mind you, but still there is no reason to send him down when he gets worked out in practice everyday and you have enough staff that can work with him after regular practice every day to determine if his ankle has any trouble in it. If it is for one game (we will know this friday) then ok. But if it is for a couple of weeks we will all get a look at what Hollands intentions truly are.

As for what you would do I would have to challenge the notion that you wouldn't just take the money and do whatever your team asks of you.
I have two points as to why. One is that you AND the Wings sat down and negotiated a contract to pay you for your services. You came up with a number and a length of time that your services would be required. You are bound by your signature on your contract to do your absolute best to live up to the conditions within the frame work of that contract. They are bound to honor their part as well. It isn't Cujo's fault that the Wings decided to keep Hasek and give him the start ahead of him. (I think a smart move) There is no reason for Cujo to accept ANY trade offers if he likes his current team nor is there any reason for him to rework his deal just because Holland has decided to do something differently. Cujo signed with the Wings instead of several other teams that were after his services (including the Avs) that would have paid him the same for the same amount of time (or close to it) and wouldn't be putting him in this situation. The Wings basically told Cujo "you are our number one for the next three years (four if we win the cup) and you will get paid $8+ per year to be it. Cujo told the Wings "I will give you my best and won't play for any other team during that time". The responsibility lies with the Wings on what they do with him and all Cujo has to do is be ready to play.

The second point is that I work in an industry where my services are contracted for. At the age of 33 (seems like yesterday but sadly wasn't) I was given a contract for what I thought was a big sum of money to go to work for one of the biggest orgs in my industry. I went there and did a very good job for them helping them achieve some things that they didn't think they could. I loved where I was and was a key part of not only changing this major company but also had a chance to make an impact on a bigger scale. A rival company noticed me and gave me a call. They told me that they would pay me double to come to work for them. I knew them to be the lesser competition of where I was but still a solid company and when I told them I had to think about what was best for me and my family they made me a stupid offer that I couldn't refuse. I went to my current employer and told them what was up and they couldn't match the money. (They offered me a bit less but for a bit longer) They also told me that it was too good of an offer to walk away from. I left and went to my new job and got their group to start working in the right direction. We had a great first year and showed an increase in earnings of about 8%. (huge in this industry) At the end of that year the company decided to sell that part of the ops. (they brought me in to make it more attractive to potential buyers without telling me but that is another story)

So here I am, in my mid 30's with two years left on this big contract that the company HAS to pay me. They basically asked me if they could pay me 60 cents on the dollar and send me on my way. (I would have been paid allot of money by my standards to sit at home for the next two years OR to go out and find another job and make even more money if I wanted to) This was happening though right when my industry was taking a pretty big hit on the stock market so I had no idea if I could find any other work. I talked about it with my wife and I just couldn't walk away from my contract. I had signed a deal for three years and whether they liked it or not I was going to stay and get every penny I could from it. That was what I agreed to and what they agreed to and that was what was going to happen. They didn't like it and had me do something that was well below my job skills thinking I would resign. I sucked it up and stayed for two more years. The most over paid guy at my position in history no doubt but I had a family to think of and had signed a deal.

I know the situations are a bit different but in the end, when the money was on the table, I had come to depend on the amount of money that I had signed in our agreement and didn't want to take a chance that it wouldn't be there. My long and stupid point is that unless you are in a situation where someone owes you allot of money and there is nothing they can do about having to pay you except ask you to take less then you just don't know what you would do.

I think Cujo is doing the right thing. He is ready to play and isn't giving anyone a hard time in the locker room or we would have heard something by now. Holland made a mistake and waaaaaay overpaid for Cujo and now he has to either buy him out or trade him and eat whatever difference there is in Cujo's market value.

Cujo is doing the exact right thing. It isn't his fault that Hollland made a bad deal to sign him and while I would bet that he wants his name on a cup that it isn't worth the probable $4 mill per year pay cut he might have to take to get it if he were to renegotiate in order to be able to be traded. No matter how bad you want to win, there is just no good reason to walk away from millions of dollars a year for a chance to do so. If Cujo holds his line Holland will end up trading him to a team that will offer something that will make the Wings better and he will end up eating, in my opinion, around half of the contract that Cujo still has left in order to do it.

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10-21-2003, 07:10 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
Vlad. I have to take issue with some of what you are saying. It is obvious that this is a negotiating tactic by Holland to try and get Cujo to loosen up a bit. Not a slap in the face mind you, but still there is no reason to send him down when he gets worked out in practice everyday and you have enough staff that can work with him after regular practice every day to determine if his ankle has any trouble in it. If it is for one game (we will know this friday) then OK. But if it is for a couple of weeks we will all get a look at what Hollands intentions truly are.


I totally disagree. Cujo is not in game shape. The Wings can not afford to throw away important regular season games for Cujo to "knock the rust off" The Wings are gonna be in a dog fight in the central with the Blues for the division title. Add the fact the Wings still need to get Manny Legace some work.
Dave Lewis and Holland have already said in numerous radio interview Cujo will see some NHL games when he is ready. The best way to get him ready is to send him for a few games in Grand Rapids.

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10-21-2003, 07:21 AM
  #44
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Excellent points IGM and Vlad.

I'm in the opinion that right now, both Holland and Cujo are doing what is best for their business interests. Cujo is a liability to the Red Wings organization right now, and it's Hollands responsibility to get him off their books. Maybe sending him to the minors may achieve this. If Cujo wishes to receive his full contract, he has to do whatever Holland says. He can control his destiny by altering his contract, but that choice is his, and depends on what he values more, the money, or a chance to play meaningful hockey.

It's seems like a callous way to do business, but people also need to remember that Cujo is a hired gun. The situation would probably be treated differently if Cujo was a long-serving Red Wing, but he isn't. Hopefully, things work out best for everyone involved, but if it doesn't, then perhaps it will serve as a lesson to teams about the dangers of long-term contracts to players on the decline.

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10-21-2003, 07:50 AM
  #45
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I wouldn't take CuJo over Vokoun either. Not only because of on-ice performance, but because of leadership, and locker room presence. Vokoun IS Nashville. We wouldn't be tied for 1st in the division without him.

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10-21-2003, 07:53 AM
  #46
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You might be right. I said it depends on how long they leave Cujo down there but you are right that there is no substitute to playing in an actual game. That is why I also said in that same paragraph that "If it is for one game (we will know this Friday) then OK. I mean that if he goes down for a weeks conditioning (what I meant by one game) then alright, if they leave him there then that is another thing. Time will tell what their intentions where. I suppose we could ask how their AHL team is doing and who Cujo will be facing during his conditioning stint. If the team in front of him plays poor D and he is facing the better teams in the AHL then it could be a recipe for disaster for Cujo. If he went down there and really struggled, it would give Holland an argument on why he should be left there and might even make the fans more sympathetic to Hollands plight.

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10-21-2003, 08:43 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
You might be right. I said it depends on how long they leave Cujo down there but you are right that there is no substitute to playing in an actual game. That is why I also said in that same paragraph that "If it is for one game (we will know this Friday) then OK. I mean that if he goes down for a weeks conditioning (what I meant by one game) then alright, if they leave him there then that is another thing. Time will tell what their intentions where. I suppose we could ask how their AHL team is doing and who Cujo will be facing during his conditioning stint. If the team in front of him plays poor D and he is facing the better teams in the AHL then it could be a recipe for disaster for Cujo. If he went down there and really struggled, it would give Holland an argument on why he should be left there and might even make the fans more sympathetic to Hollands plight.


Grand Rapids is one of the better AHL teams. With a pretty good goalie in Marc Lamothe. Another reason he will play a few games in GR is they play 3 games in 3 nights.
God i hope he plays well....lol

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10-21-2003, 09:53 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I actually think that CuJo has now become very under rated on these boards. There was a time when he was a Leaf that he was over rated, but now it has swung to far the other way.

Yes, he makes too much money, but if money was not an issue, IMO he would be an upgrade for this season for the following teams:

Sharks

Note: this does not mean that he is a huge upgrade.

** Let the flaming beigin. **
Would he be an upgrade, Maybe--Personally I think it'd be a down grade. But when you factor in age, $$$, and the fact that SJ has so many goalies in its system + strelow It becomes a tad ridiculas too list the sharks.

Nabby
Toskala
Kipper
Patzold
Ehelechner
Shaffer--Spelling
All of which showing promise or better
and Kotyk (I'm probably forgetting someone).

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10-21-2003, 10:02 AM
  #49
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Hello IGM. Just wanted to tell you before I start that this was a great, great post. I still want to give you my 2 cents on some stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
Vlad. I have to take issue with some of what you are saying. It is obvious that this is a negotiating tactic by Holland to try and get Cujo to loosen up a bit.
This is probably true. These tactics are not really nice either but they are part of the game. Remember that guys like CUJO and their agents *also* use all sorts of negociating tactics when signing the contract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
As for what you would do I would have to challenge the notion that you wouldn't just take the money and do whatever your team asks of you.
That would greatly depend on the circumstances. Where I'm at, family, obligations and opportunities. This is all very personnal I guess. If I could find a better situation, I would certainly think about it.

I wouldn't be able to do what Irbe is doing right now, for instance, because I care too much about my family situation to do so and at the salary those guys are making, I would already have a nice pile of cash in different financial ventures as backup plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
I have two points as to why. One is that you AND the Wings sat down and negotiated a contract to pay you for your services. You came up with a number and a length of time that your services would be required. You are bound by your signature on your contract to do your absolute best to live up to the conditions within the frame work of that contract. They are bound to honor their part as well. It isn't Cujo's fault that the Wings decided to keep Hasek and give him the start ahead of him. (I think a smart move) There is no reason for Cujo to accept ANY trade offers if he likes his current team nor is there any reason for him to rework his deal just because Holland has decided to do something differently. Cujo signed with the Wings instead of several other teams that were after his services (including the Avs) that would have paid him the same for the same amount of time (or close to it) and wouldn't be putting him in this situation. The Wings basically told Cujo "you are our number one for the next three years (four if we win the cup) and you will get paid $8+ per year to be it. Cujo told the Wings "I will give you my best and won't play for any other team during that time". The responsibility lies with the Wings on what they do with him and all Cujo has to do is be ready to play.
Truye, but that's exactly what they are doing, isn't it? They are paying CUJO and trying to get rid of him meanwhile.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
The second point is that I work in an industry where my services are contracted for. At the age of 33 (seems like yesterday but sadly wasn't) I was given a contract for what I thought was a big sum of money to go to work for one of the biggest orgs in my industry. I went there and did a very good job for them helping them achieve some things that they didn't think they could. I loved where I was and was a key part of not only changing this major company but also had a chance to make an impact on a bigger scale. A rival company noticed me and gave me a call. They told me that they would pay me double to come to work for them.
I work as a freelance so I know where you are coming from. It is indeed a life full of important, key decisions.



Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
I knew them to be the lesser competition of where I was but still a solid company and when I told them I had to think about what was best for me and my family they made me a stupid offer that I couldn't refuse. I went to my current employer and told them what was up and they couldn't match the money. (They offered me a bit less but for a bit longer) They also told me that it was too good of an offer to walk away from.
When the money is too good to pass up, it's great. However, one thing you have learned by now is that you have to be aware of the effects on the other party. Sure, when you negociate something, you have to take care of YOUR interests. But it's good to look at the other side and try to see if they aren't putting themselves in a bad spot. Cause if they are, your contract better be rock solid and offering you every protection needed or they will come at you.

That's why I try not to ask for too much and really try to understand the expectations of the other party and the current situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
So here I am, in my mid 30's with two years left on this big contract that the company HAS to pay me. They basically asked me if they could pay me 60 cents on the dollar and send me on my way. (I would have been paid allot of money by my standards to sit at home for the next two years OR to go out and find another job and make even more money if I wanted to) This was happening though right when my industry was taking a pretty big hit on the stock market so I had no idea if I could find any other work. I talked about it with my wife and I just couldn't walk away from my contract. I had signed a deal for three years and whether they liked it or not I was going to stay and get every penny I could from it. That was what I agreed to and what they agreed to and that was what was going to happen. They didn't like it and had me do something that was well below my job skills thinking I would resign. I sucked it up and stayed for two more years. The most over paid guy at my position in history no doubt but I had a family to think of and had signed a deal.
You have eloquently explained your situation and I think it is great that you did what was best for you and your family. I also think CUJO has to do the same. Nothing wrong with holding someone to his obligations. It is your right just like it is CUJO's right.

I would hope CUJO has different financial backup plans, however. But that is not my business.

However, there are times when it is best to compromise. For instance, Sergei Zinovjev is a player around 24 years of age who has had some success in the RSL and finally made the jump to North America to try and make the Bruins. His contract made it clear that if he did not make the pro team, he could walk away and return in Russia.

He didn't make the team, but Boston discussed with him and basically convinced him to try the AHL. It was up to Zino to accept or refuse since he was under no obligation to do so. But he accepted and so far is doing ok in Providence. He signed a contract that maybe was very attractive to him but sometimes you have to look beyond that and see the greater goals.

Same applies with deferred money. With increased salaries, we now hear that some players accept defered money on their contracts to allow the team to bring key players. The Wings did it two years ago I believe and won the cup. It was probably worth it for the players and everybody involved is happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
I know the situations are a bit different but in the end, when the money was on the table, I had come to depend on the amount of money that I had signed in our agreement and didn't want to take a chance that it wouldn't be there. My long and stupid point is that unless you are in a situation where someone owes you allot of money and there is nothing they can do about having to pay you except ask you to take less then you just don't know what you would do.
I don't think your point was stupid. It is good to have your insight here and see the situation from that point of view!

I have been in that situation a few times. Whenever I negociate anything, I try to think of the two sides to avoid the situation. When the situation happens, I try to work it out. It depends on a lot of factors and greater goals.

In this case, I have always seen the *NHL* as the business entity. It is a great mistake IMO to think of a *team* as the business entity because this is basically a closed market. Sure, different teams have different budgets and earnings but basically, I think CUJO has to see the NHL as a business entity, one that has very few places for him to play.

The free agent market is an artificial market because in the end, you always end up playing in the NHL and many of the agreements are colective between the 30 teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
I think Cujo is doing the right thing. He is ready to play and isn't giving anyone a hard time in the locker room or we would have heard something by now. Holland made a mistake and waaaaaay overpaid for Cujo and now he has to either buy him out or trade him and eat whatever difference there is in Cujo's market value.

Cujo is doing the exact right thing. It isn't his fault that Hollland made a bad deal to sign him and while I would bet that he wants his name on a cup that it isn't worth the probable $4 mill per year pay cut he might have to take to get it if he were to renegotiate in order to be able to be traded. No matter how bad you want to win, there is just no good reason to walk away from millions of dollars a year for a chance to do so.
I think there are plenty of reasons to do so.... when you ALREADY have millions

I don't really see Holland as having made a mistake signing CUJO. It's more that Hasek came back and they accepted him. They should have worked out something with CUJO (a trade, anything) before announcing Hasek's un-retirement.

The Wings are terrible at those kind of situations. They lost Osgood ( a semi-decent #1) for nothing in the waivers exactly because they take hasty decisions like this.

This is my only beef with Holland because other than this, I think he runs a tight ship.

It is his right to work under the limiations of CUJO's contract and that's probably what I would do at this point. I would probably try to make CUJO resign using such tactics as sending him to the AHL if needed. It's not nice but that's what he has to do from his end.

In the end, a contract is supposed to satisfy both parties. A contract is binding, but it is best to negociate a contract that will be worth it for everybody to avoid those kind of situations.

The problem is that, in our society today, we see contracts as handcuffs. That's what all contracts CAN BE. It's not what all contracts are SUPPOSED B. They are supposed to be there in the first place to avoid misunderstandings and any distortion that time could have on the memory of the parties when the length of the contract is particularly long.

By bringing an agent to the table and trying to suck up as much money as possible and not look at the other party, CUJO has played the game most NHLers play these days. For that, I have no sympathy. It is his rights but on rare (very rare) occasions, players get screwed playing that game.

Give me players like Guy Carbonneau, who basically would negociate his contracts himself with family members attending, face-to-face with the GM. He never got screwed, didn't have to pay a cut to a bloodsucking agent and basically was happy playing hockey and earning a lot of money to do so.

Vlad The Impaler is offline  
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10-21-2003, 11:14 AM
  #50
IGM
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great response vlad as expected. I will read it for awhile and try to develope an opinion and then respond if I can come up with anything. Several interesting points though.

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