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Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM (Part II)

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Old
06-29-2017, 01:25 PM
  #376
Mystic MacK
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
Holden is a NHL defender. A 5, who can play up when needed, but he is a NHL defender. I still firmly believe that Barrie's partner is pretty irrelevant. Barrie excels with the puck on his stick, the more it is there, the better his game will be. Yeah a player who is better in his own zone would be nice for Barrie, but I don't think it hurts his game to play with lesser partners. With lesser partners, Barrie just needs smarter utilization. If Alzner wasn't falling off a cliff, he'd honestly be perfect. Good in the defensive zone, and could just feed Barrie the puck time and time again.
This is the problem I see with that. With lesser partners, he needs better utilization like you say. Which means they have to be uber selective in sheltering him. Which means he plays less minutes. Which means he's not contributing as much offensively, and he's not earning his $5.5M.

You also need a solid 1st and 2nd pairing in order to shelter him properly. The Avs don't really have either as of yet.

If you play him more minutes, that means more situations where he has to play without the puck. More situations where he and his D partner have to breakup plays to get the puck back, so he can contribute offensively.

This is precisely why he needs a solid defensive partner. He needs someone who can help cover up his weaknesses in his own zone, and help him break up plays and get the puck back. This will allow him to play more minutes.

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06-29-2017, 05:25 PM
  #377
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I can't believe people are still *****ing about Holden. He earned every bit of his tiny paycheck. And now that he is on a good team with a real system he is doing even better.
Stow the hyperbole, that's not what I said. I'm not slagging Holden, nor do I think he has a bad contract, but I still take issue that they rushed to sign him and so many others after that playoff run. They more or less got lucky once the extension finally kicked in, but he was horrendous his 2nd year with the Avs. Holden is a perfectly capable depth defender, it's a shame the Avs did such a horrendous job replacing him.

Anyway, I'd say more important than finding a capable partner for Barrie is finding an ideal partner for EJ. Once the Avs get that one guy who can actually take on the toughest matchups and big minutes, that allows them to deploy Barrie the way he was meant to be used. Is Zads that guy? He will have to be at present.

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06-29-2017, 06:56 PM
  #378
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Anyone see this article Steve Dangle posted about Joe Sakic today:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/c...nche-good-bad/

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06-29-2017, 07:08 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Nalens Oga View Post
Anyone see this article Steve Dangle posted about Joe Sakic today:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/c...nche-good-bad/
I have no idea what the purpose of that article is and that Twitter take was just as stupid yesterday.

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06-29-2017, 07:12 PM
  #380
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In regards to Barrie's abilities under coach Bednar, I have to wonder how much of our systems WERE actually Jared's? I mean, it appeared we suffered the same fragility as we maintained for the two previous years under Roy:

1. Allowing far too many shots against
2. Playing very tired legs in very serious on ice situations
3. Not shooting the puck enough
4. Allowing the opposition to control zone time
5. Third period breakdowns
6. Constantly losing battles along the boards
7. Completely inconsistent play by our so called marquee players.

Now, I'm not making excuses here, but I wonder how much our play was a legacy from the Roy, Army, Farrish and Allaire (who incidentally was only here to see out his contract) era?

Look, the Lake Erie team Jared Bednar coached to win The Calder Cup for in 2015-2016 wasn't exactly star studded. They just all played a really good system, and as a group. My hope is that Bednar can some what emulate that this coming season.

I hope we bring a new level of enthusiasm, spirit, teamwork, work ethic and passion we seem to have been lacking for some time. If Bednar can unlock the motivational keys behind Soderberg, Duchene, Varlamov, Landeskog & they perform to the best of their abilities, the only way is up people.

I can see Barrie bouncing back (even though he scored 38 points in 74 games in a poor year). I can see Zadorov making people thank the stars for the ROR trade. I can see (touch wood, re: injuries) EJ having an almost career year, and becomes the leader we all know him to be. Having a last pairing of Barberio - Mirinov for example, is as strong on defense as we've been in years. I agree Kulikov would be an amazing foil for Barrie. I can see Rantanen continuing to develop and dominate at times. I can see Landy & Dutchy bouncing back - the quality is there (we've all seen it).

Then we have the unknowns, and potential in guys like Nieto, Jost, Compher, Greer, Grimaldi, Andrighetto, Bigras, Siemens, maybe even Butcher, Mirinov, Lindholm.

Then we have rookies like Makar, Boikov & many others who are developing away.

The futures bright. I just hope people look at the positives. It's not all doom and gloom as people say. one poor year doesn't constitute a career. Beware of writing off a warrior like Matt Duchene. A terrier like Tyson Barrie.

Chins up guys.

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06-29-2017, 08:28 PM
  #381
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We're entering uncharted territory here. Now even Bednar's systems are Roy's fault? Since they didn't work that must mean Bednar is using Roy's system not his own? It never ends.

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06-29-2017, 09:24 PM
  #382
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Anytime a team's issues are carried over across multiple coaching regimes, the problems lie with the players themselves.

There are several players from the old core who need to be shipped out, if only to bring about a serious culture change in the dressing room.

Duchene, Landeskog, Stastny, O'Reilly, Barrie and even Johnson were all part of the old core that just never learned how to win and never had the locker room leadership and guidance needed to take the next step. They were never surrounded by the right depth pieces or veterans.

My only solution would be to trade off the remainder of the failed core except maybe EJ because he actually still cares about trying to win.

As much as I like Landeskog and Duchene, it just clearly isn't working here anymore and they need a change of scenery. I'd still like to see them succeed here but that's very unlikely.

And as much as I don't like that management has made MacKinnon the hill they're going to die on, if they're going to implement a new core, it'll have to be Mack, Jost, Rantanen, Makar, Zadorov and then the complimentary depth guys like Greer, Bigras, Compher, Timmins, Meloche, Beaudin, Morrison and whatever pieces Dutchy/Landy/Barrie bring back. Then they need to identify vets who can actually grow with the team and teach them to win and not collapse during third periods or blowing playoff series leads.

The mental fragility of this team is cultural, and the only way to fix it is by shipping out the old core and letting the new core find their identity far, far away from the perpetual loser mentality we've had to suffer through.

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06-29-2017, 11:18 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Mystic MacK View Post
We're entering uncharted territory here. Now even Bednar's systems are Roy's fault? Since they didn't work that must mean Bednar is using Roy's system not his own? It never ends.
Mystic, I know everyone takes the **** out of me because unlike everyone else, I'm optimistic and excited about our future. But if you think, with the same GM's, same assistant coaches, a coach brought in only weeks before the season starts, with relatively the same roster, that Roy's systems weren't some what still utilised (given the same weak trends were happening), then I honestly think we are all being negative for the purpose of being negative.

Yes, I feel a lot of what Roy entrenched over his three years was most certainly a part of what we saw last season with this team.

Is Bednar perfect? Who knows. At least give him more than ONE season with some time to at least instil some systems. Jeez mate, he probably didn't even know where his local corner store was the first time he stepped onto ice to coach our players.

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06-29-2017, 11:40 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Sea Eagles View Post
Mystic, I know everyone takes the **** out of me because unlike everyone else, I'm optimistic and excited about our future. But if you think, with the same GM's, same assistant coaches, a coach brought in only weeks before the season starts, with relatively the same roster, that Roy's systems weren't some what still utilised (given the same weak trends were happening), then I honestly think we are all being negative for the purpose of being negative.

Yes, I feel a lot of what Roy entrenched over his three years was most certainly a part of what we saw last season with this team.

Is Bednar perfect? Who knows. At least give him more than ONE season with some time to at least instil some systems. Jeez mate, he probably didn't even know where his local corner store was the first time he stepped onto ice to coach our players.
It's totally fine for you to have that opinion, but Bednar implemented a fairly different system. You could see it in multiple areas. The breakout was different. The first half of the season they pretty much never passed D to D. The D also passed way more to the forwards on the breakout, instead of skating it out. The team held on to the puck way more in the offensive zone instead of putting pucks on net. Those are just the big changes.

That list you made of the team having the same problems as before, is just proof that the problem lies in the players, specifically the **** poor D unit.

1. Allowing far too many shots against
2. Playing very tired legs in very serious on ice situations
4. Allowing the opposition to control zone time
5. Third period breakdowns

All these things are all due to running too many terrible defenseman.

3. Not shooting the puck enough

This was due to being worn out from playing in their own end, and not having enough creativity and skill up front under Roy. Under Bednar they actually got worse because he was trying to force a puck possession system on a bunch of guys that suck at puck possession.

6. Constantly losing battles along the boards
7. Completely inconsistent play by our so called marquee players.

These things to me were due to a lack of leadership among the veterans. Landy was the only one battling hard every night. Guys like Mitchell, Soda, Colborne, Grigo, and Iggy were just along for the ride. They had zero fight in their game.

Then to make things worse you have Duchene's yearly mental roadblocks, and then EJ, and Varly's injuries. Those are arguably the team's best 3 players.

When you have all the problems the Avs had with their team, and then you have a bunch of guys that simply don't give a ****, you end up with the worst record in decades.

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06-30-2017, 12:07 AM
  #385
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Bednar's system was clearly less complicated, more conservative, which is fine. Much as I liked Roy's insistence on emphasizing puck movement, sometimes ya gotta just dump the damned puck. Problem is the severe lack of speed and physicality, especially up front, made any sort of dump and chase counterproductive.

I still say Roy's system is terribly flawed and over complicated...however, I can't say that it couldn't possibly work in the NHL because he too had to deal with lack of talent

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07-04-2017, 10:30 AM
  #386
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Just popping my head in here. Lots of debate about coaches and players but bring this back to Sakic - at what point does Sakic become responsible for this?

I.e. What's the scenario would you guys see playing out that would require Kroenke to move on from Joe? I'm having a hard one figuring out what's got to be the straw on the camels back here

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07-04-2017, 10:39 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
Just popping my head in here. Lots of debate about coaches and players but bring this back to Sakic - at what point does Sakic become responsible for this?

I.e. What's the scenario would you guys see playing out that would require Kroenke to move on from Joe? I'm having a hard one figuring out what's got to be the straw on the camels back here
Sakic should already be gone. There's really no reason to trust him with rebuilding this team. After a 48 point season I have no idea what else it would take for Kroenke to kick Sakic to the curb. Best guess would be some sort of big financial loss that forces Kroenke to take a real hard look at what is happening. Otherwise Sakic appears to be in complete control of his future.

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07-04-2017, 10:54 AM
  #388
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Probably another 48 point team. But I can't stress this enough, it's not just him, it's the entire "brains" behind the org that has to go. They need to take a blowtorch to the culture of the org.

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07-04-2017, 10:56 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
Just popping my head in here. Lots of debate about coaches and players but bring this back to Sakic - at what point does Sakic become responsible for this?
He has been responsible all along. Every player on the team is on a contract signed during Sakic's tenure. Of course he's responsible. Entirely so.

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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
I.e. What's the scenario would you guys see playing out that would require Kroenke to move on from Joe? I'm having a hard one figuring out what's got to be the straw on the camels back here
Yeah, that's a tough one. I'm not holding my breath.

Of course, that raises the potentially ugly question of what is the next stop on the nepotism train?

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07-04-2017, 10:57 AM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
Just popping my head in here. Lots of debate about coaches and players but bring this back to Sakic - at what point does Sakic become responsible for this?

I.e. What's the scenario would you guys see playing out that would require Kroenke to move on from Joe? I'm having a hard one figuring out what's got to be the straw on the camels back here
He's the last link in a chain of failure. I don't even think he's the weakest link. He's had a lot of one step forward, one and a half step back going here.

I like Avs drafting now much better than before Sakic. I like the patience with development. I like that Sakic because he's Joe ****ing Sakic, gets the owners to spend way to much money on a team that stink.

He's not even having that bad an off season. Just seems to bungle the one thing he can't.

I'm not sure he's enjoying this anymore. Going to the playoffs after a 112 point season is all party but lately it's more like he's on latrine digging duty. I wouldn't be shocked to see him gone in a years time.

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07-04-2017, 11:18 AM
  #391
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Probably another 48 point team. But I can't stress this enough, it's not just him, it's the entire "brains" behind the org that has to go. They need to take a blowtorch to the culture of the org.
I think the amateur scouts should stay. Pro scouts need to go along with Binnington and co. from the AHL.

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07-04-2017, 12:39 PM
  #392
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Probably another 48 point team. But I can't stress this enough, it's not just him, it's the entire "brains" behind the org that has to go. They need to take a blowtorch to the culture of the org.
Everything Kroenke touches turns to dog poop.

The Rams have never had a winning record since he became majority owner.

We all know how crappy the Rapids are with one season higher than 4th in the west in ten plus years, with a fluke playoff run to the title.

Kroenke's only successful Avs seasons were directly after he purchased the team. Then after the lockout the team fell into it's current disarray, minus one fluke run to the division title.

The Nuggets have won two playoff series in 17 years.

Arsenal is now in the Europa League.

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07-04-2017, 02:47 PM
  #393
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Sakic Nailed It!!!

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07-04-2017, 03:44 PM
  #394
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I just realized that Sakic is now heading into his 5th season running the team, which means he's now been kept longer than Sherman or Giguerre in that role.

Sherman was technically GM for 5 years too, but we know that was in title only. They acknowledged Sakic was running the team in 2013-14.

Also now the 3rd longest tenure in the 44 year history of the Quebec/Colorado franchise, behind Maurice Filion and Lacroix.

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07-04-2017, 07:27 PM
  #395
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Sakic is responsible for the team being as bad as it was last year. But in hindsight, I think the Avs would be bad regardless.

Free agent signings that Sakic made - Jarome Iginla, Fedor Tyutin, Francois Beauchemin, Joe Colborne, Carl Soderberg - commanded a ton of salary, but produced literally zero.

However, the prospect pool has been completely dry in Sakic's first four seasons. The only prospects who graduated into being full time NHL players were Mikko Rantanen and Calvin Pickard; in other words, a can't miss prospect and a back-up goalie.

Going into this season, the Avs will be ripe with young players either drafted (Jost, Greer, Mironov, Lindholm) or acquired (Compher) during the Sakic regime.

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07-05-2017, 02:17 AM
  #396
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Sakic is responsible for the team being as bad as it was last year. But in hindsight, I think the Avs would be bad regardless.

Free agent signings that Sakic made - Jarome Iginla, Fedor Tyutin, Francois Beauchemin, Joe Colborne, Carl Soderberg - commanded a ton of salary, but produced literally zero.

However, the prospect pool has been completely dry in Sakic's first four seasons. The only prospects who graduated into being full time NHL players were Mikko Rantanen and Calvin Pickard; in other words, a can't miss prospect and a back-up goalie.

Going into this season, the Avs will be ripe with young players either drafted (Jost, Greer, Mironov, Lindholm) or acquired (Compher) during the Sakic regime.
This is a good point. Sakic came in with basically nothing on that front from previous regimes. Can anybody name a team in the cap era that has built a quality team through free agency without any internal depth to draw on? Free agency has been Sakic's only option to ice a hockey team with. Can anybody name a bunch of free agents he SHOULD have signed instead of those guys that would have made us a playoff team by now?

As frustrating as it was to see then drag their feet on calling the kids up from the minors last year, ask yourself how long it's been since we as Avs fans have been able to even be excited about players who didn't step right into the NHL after being drafted. The jury is still out on whether the Avs can develop these 2nd and 3rd round picks into something, but it's very premature to say they've failed just because of past performance.

Keep in mind, our only options for replacing him as a GM right now are guys who have never held that position before or guys who have recently lost their jobs for incompetence. Pitchforks and torches are cathartic, but there is zero guarantee that his replacement will be able to do better. And if he does, it will likely be in large part thanks to Sakic draft picks like Jost, Beaudin, Greer, Meloche, Mironov, Timmins, Rantanen, and MacKinnon.

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07-05-2017, 03:29 AM
  #397
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
Just popping my head in here. Lots of debate about coaches and players but bring this back to Sakic - at what point does Sakic become responsible for this?

I.e. What's the scenario would you guys see playing out that would require Kroenke to move on from Joe? I'm having a hard one figuring out what's got to be the straw on the camels back here
Ownership has to be souring on him a bit. We have very little to go on but that whole thing with Dubas was quite telling. Either they were looking for a replacement or they were looking to put another big voice in the room (I'm guessing the latter since the Avs don't seem to care how many cooks are in the kitchen). I'd say if things are as lackluster and utterly dead as they were last season, Bednar is obviously gone, but Joe won't be surviving long after that.

One thing about Bednar some seem to be forgetting. He was brought in with hardly any time to prepare for the upcoming season with a garbage roster and assistants he knew nothing about, save for Nolan Pratt. Now he appears to have hired or will be hiring his own staff and has a complete season under his belt, so he has no excuses. I'm not expecting a miracle season here but both he and Sakic better get things trending back in the right direction.

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07-05-2017, 03:33 AM
  #398
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Probably another 48 point team. But I can't stress this enough, it's not just him, it's the entire "brains" behind the org that has to go. They need to take a blowtorch to the culture of the org.
Agreed, though I do believe Sakic and Roy both deserve credit for finally building what looks like a legit pipeline...I'd like people like Hepple and those working under him to continue. But that still leaves a ton of folks who have been there forever I'd like to see gone, including some who aren't even in the hockey operations side of things.

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07-07-2017, 03:19 PM
  #399
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Everything Kroenke touches turns to dog poop.

The Rams have never had a winning record since he became majority owner.

We all know how crappy the Rapids are with one season higher than 4th in the west in ten plus years, with a fluke playoff run to the title.

Kroenke's only successful Avs seasons were directly after he purchased the team. Then after the lockout the team fell into it's current disarray, minus one fluke run to the division title.

The Nuggets have won two playoff series in 17 years.

Arsenal is now in the Europa League.
This.

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