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Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM (Part II)

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Old
03-01-2017, 04:54 PM
  #51
The Kingslayer
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Fire yourself Joseph

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03-01-2017, 04:55 PM
  #52
AvsWraith
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If he truly wants to do what is best of the organization, he will step down. This job is not for him.

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03-01-2017, 05:07 PM
  #53
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I am really bummed about today. But Sakic is not mentally challenged. He knows he had to get something for the dead weight. But if no one offers you anything what are you supposed to do? He had give away Iginla. Do you think Mitchell would commanded anything? Colborne? The one that I can't believe us still here is Tyutin. Surely some team would have offered a 7th

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03-01-2017, 05:22 PM
  #54
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what's the vision here, what's the plan?

with good GMs, you can easily see that they have clear vision (and are willing to make moves, have good execution when it comes to fulfilling it etc.). sure they make mistakes along the way. but they have more hits than misses and they learn from their misses.

i'm not seeing that here.

they did avoid some mistakes this past season that they made in the past, but those are mistakes that never should've been made.

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03-01-2017, 05:24 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic MacK View Post
I think that extends to 2005 when they replaced Forsberg and Foote with Turgeon and Brisebois.

It's been down hill ever since, and most of the moves have been similar cheap stop gaps.
The lockout and especially the cap kicked us in the nuts. There was no way PL could have corrected for that in one season but he also proved that he wasn't good at operating under a cap for many seasons after either.

The only good thing that came about from it was that I got excited for a minute and a half that Vincent Damphousse was going to be an Avalanche. I loved him and knew he was at the end but thought he would look great in an AVs sweater.

Turgeon had his moments, especially with Svatos on his wing, but Brisebois while not great (but better than what passes for Avalanche d-men today) was asked to play entirely too many minutes...unfortunately that is something of the standard when it comes to Avalanche Dmen of past decade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigervixxxen View Post
His fingerprints are on this mess too. I didn't hate him as a coach and sure he was interesting to listen to but from the executive side he did more than enough damage.
Somehow I was expecting you to chime in.

Regarding the bolded, you sound pretty confident there. I don't actually KNOW how much influence Roy had. Unless you have some juicy news to share, I'm not sure you do either. I'm dying to hear exactly what Patrick forced through that Joe didn't like or approve of.

I will grant you this...it appears Joe and Patrick had a falling out over the vision of the AVs core and that led to Patrick leaving. I think the wrong voice and wrong vision left. Feel free to disagree on that...I can respect it. What I don't necessarily care for is you saying Roy did the damage as an Assistant GM while giving Joe a free pass as the GM all the while ignoring the fact that this team is worse than last season.

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Old
03-01-2017, 05:28 PM
  #56
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It's pointless to argue it, everyone holds their perceptions depending on who your favorite player was. Just like if one is in camp Landeskog or Duchene. Sure nothing can be unequivocally proven so there's always an out in an argument. Who really cares anymore? We are where we are if its Lacroix or Billington or Roy or Sakic's fault doesn't change anything, they are all trash.


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Old
03-01-2017, 05:33 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chileiceman View Post
I am really bummed about today. But Sakic is not mentally challenged. He knows he had to get something for the dead weight. But if no one offers you anything what are you supposed to do? He had give away Iginla. Do you think Mitchell would commanded anything? Colborne? The one that I can't believe us still here is Tyutin. Surely some team would have offered a 7th
Yeah, I agree with all of what you DID say.

What you didn't touch on was Landy and Duchene. Joe allowed them to dangle in the trade winds without making comments for entirely too long. As a fan of both players I am praying they never sign another contract with the AVs. They deserve better. Neither are elite talents but both are solid if not star players in their own right. This whole situation is BS. If you are selling them say so and DO IT...if you aren't at least say so. Saying and doing nothing one way or the other makes Joe come across as an indecisive GM in entirely way over his head. How do you rebuild bridges with players many thought would/should be traded and keep them as part of your core?

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03-01-2017, 05:41 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigervixxxen View Post
It's pointless to argue it, everyone holds their perceptions depending on who your favorite player was. Just like if one is in camp Landeskog or Duchene. Sure nothing can be unequivocally proven so there's always an out in an argument. Who really cares anymore? We are where we are if its Lacroix or Billington or Roy or Sakic's fault doesn't change anything, they are all trash.

So you and I do see eye to eye. We don't know what's happened but we know we hate it.

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03-01-2017, 05:48 PM
  #59
Mystic MacK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigervixxxen View Post
It's pointless to argue it, everyone holds their perceptions depending on who your favorite player was. Just like if one is in camp Landeskog or Duchene. Sure nothing can be unequivocally proven so there's always an out in an argument. Who really cares anymore? We are where we are if its Lacroix or Billington or Roy or Sakic's fault doesn't change anything, they are all trash.
I don't think that plays a factor in people's opinions really. I know for me, I was more a fan of Joe than Patrick as players, but I've been more critical of Joe than Patrick.

I think the same is probably true for those that are more critical of Patrick. I don't think their opinions of them as players come into play much.

At least as far as Av fans go. I do think a lot of the criticism of Roy from those outside of Av fans stems from their feelings of him during his playing career.

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03-01-2017, 05:49 PM
  #60
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Sakic Conference Call

http://avalanche.nhl.com/v2/ext/podc...rence-call.mp3

Doesn't instill much confidence.

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Old
03-01-2017, 05:56 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InjuredChoker View Post
what's the vision here, what's the plan?

with good GMs, you can easily see that they have clear vision (and are willing to make moves, have good execution when it comes to fulfilling it etc.). sure they make mistakes along the way. but they have more hits than misses and they learn from their misses.

i'm not seeing that here.

they did avoid some mistakes this past season that they made in the past, but those are mistakes that never should've been made.
This is a great question that hasn't been answered for a decade. What is this teams identity? We don't have one. Sucking is the closest thing we have to an identity as of this moment.

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03-01-2017, 06:22 PM
  #62
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That press conference was worse than the deadline tbh, pretty concerning.

If we had more hardcore fans in Denver then they oughta start making some noise and protesting about Sakic outside the arena with signs European football fan style lol.

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03-01-2017, 06:36 PM
  #63
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Sakic really let Avs fans down today in my opinion. No one expected a huge deal, or to acquire a ton of assets, but to be the bottom team in the league and to acquire zero tangible assets is truly embarrassing. Carolina has 11 picks in the draft, and they're not nearly as hopeless right now.




I understand the whole "giving Iginla a chance to win a cup because I respect him" thing, but are you best friends with your players, or are you trying to improve this team? As far as I'm concerned he's had ample time to make an impression on this franchise, and he's somehow managed to regress over the past few years. It's time for a change in Colorado, and a big one. They need to clean house and start over.

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03-01-2017, 06:38 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalens Oga View Post
That press conference was worse than the deadline tbh, pretty concerning.

If we had more hardcore fans in Denver then they oughta start making some noise and protesting about Sakic outside the arena with signs European football fan style lol.
This. I have absolutely zero hope of any sort of a rebuild now.

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03-01-2017, 06:48 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Nalens Oga View Post
That press conference was worse than the deadline tbh, pretty concerning.

If we had more hardcore fans in Denver then they oughta start making some noise and protesting about Sakic outside the arena with signs European football fan style lol.
Yeah. Sakic was obviously frustrated judging by that call.

"Quite frankly I don't have to talk to them. They are my players." Well actually you do, because you let their names get dragged through the press for the entire season.

After listening to that crap I am completely done with Sakic. He needs to go. This franchise is badly in need of someone with a clear direction. Sakic is meandering around, doing his best. Not even close to good enough.

Yzerman learned for years under Ken Holland. Sakic must have been rubbing Lacroix's back while he ate honey from a jar or something. Stay on if you want, but move aside. This isn't for you Joe.

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03-01-2017, 06:53 PM
  #66
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Yeah. Sakic was obviously frustrated judging by that call.

"Quite frankly I don't have to talk to them. They are my players." Well actually you do, because you let their names get dragged through the press for the entire season.

After listening to that crap I am completely done with Sakic. He needs to go. This franchise is badly in need of someone with a clear direction. Sakic is meandering around, doing his best. Not even close to good enough.

Yzerman learned for years under Ken Holland. Sakic must have been rubbing Lacroix's back while he ate honey from a jar or something. Stay on if you want, but move aside. This isn't for you Joe.
Especially true. Feel like he could not have handled it any worse than he did. Duchene seems to be totally done with it all, and I just can't see a guy like that being upset unless it was handled poorly.

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03-01-2017, 06:58 PM
  #67
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Especially true. Feel like he could not have handled it any worse than he did. Duchene seems to be totally done with it all, and I just can't see a guy like that being upset unless it was handled poorly.
GM's that know what they are doing come out and immediately diffuse anything like that. Sutter said it multiple times regarding Phaneuf. Then he gets moved out of the blue.

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Old
03-01-2017, 07:01 PM
  #68
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GM's that know what they are doing come out and immediately diffuse anything like that. Sutter said it multiple times regarding Phaneuf. Then he gets moved out of the blue.
Well I think it shows just how far over his head he really is. He was trying to let the media do the work, and have a "can't miss" deal fall right into his lap, and instead of diffusing it, he let it become a MAJOR distraction all year.



He alienated two of his best players as far as I'm concerned. A good GM does not let that happen.


edit: found a picture of him during todays countdown


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03-01-2017, 07:18 PM
  #69
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His fingerprints are on this mess too. I didn't hate him as a coach and sure he was interesting to listen to but from the executive side he did more than enough damage.
Based on what? Rumors are he wanted to trade one of the core players, well guess what? We've had those same rumors coming up to this trade deadline with sakic. It didn't happen, but when it does happen, its exactly what Roy wanted. lol

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03-01-2017, 07:23 PM
  #70
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I can understand wanting Sakic to be replaced; he's put the Avs in the hole they're in now.

However, I don't understand why the pitchforks are coming out today. I feel as if Sakic had acquired a couple low picks (5th-7th round) for pending UFA veterans, fans would be much happier.

While doing this would make sense - and I'm sure Sakic tried to move some of the team's old baggage - it literally has zero impact on the team positively or negatively.

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03-01-2017, 07:23 PM
  #71
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I beat this drum as well. I have been a Chicago sports fan since about 1980. All you have to do is look at the trajectory of the major teams in Chicago to see how much it comes down to ownership.

You can identify issues with coaching, GM, players or whatever all you want, but those all trace back to one place. Sustained excellence starts at the top. The Kroenkes' sports teams don't exactly give you confidence that the top is interested in excellence. Once I realized that, (yeah, I'm slow) it was easy to give up Avs season tickets...
THIS. The nice part is Sakic is doing such a horrific job that even the most die hard fans will soon cut the cord especially if (as expected) Kroenke lets this ride. I think TV has said this and I'm in the same place. What they do at the expansion and entry drafts this summer will decide if I continue to follow this team.

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03-01-2017, 07:33 PM
  #72
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I can understand wanting Sakic to be replaced; he's put the Avs in the hole they're in now.

However, I don't understand why the pitchforks are coming out today. I feel as if Sakic had acquired a couple low picks (5th-7th round) for pending UFA veterans, fans would be much happier.

While doing this would make sense - and I'm sure Sakic tried to move some of the team's old baggage - it literally has zero impact on the team positively or negatively.
I think a lot of the concern (at least in my eyes) probably stems from the fact we're always hearing about how he tried do something to help the team, but then it results in not getting done. Whether it's UFA's, or trades to add players, or trades to move players.

Then we see the moves he was able to get done for UFA's and trades, and most of them the results are negative.

That being said, I hope he can make a good deal for Duchene around the draft. I'm glad he didn't cave and fall for the games Ottawa and Montreal were playing.

It will be interesting to see what he does this summer. It will be hard not to think about the possibility he could have got Seth Jones and Jonathan Drouin for Duchene and Barrie though, if he would have been more decisive a year earlier.

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03-01-2017, 07:47 PM
  #73
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It's hard to take him serious when he says he wants to get younger and faster when he signed Colborne, Weircioch and Tyutin last July 1st. Seems more like a catch phrase he throws out now that everything turned to ****.

Of course Avs are going to have to get younger and faster when they purge Iginla, Beauchemin, Stuart and so on. Hard to get older and slower.

He's been doing a good job of locking up the core to good contracts (with the exception of Stastny) and getting value for O'Reilly but beyond that this team is just blindly stumbling. Signing the wrong players to, almost always, one year too long contracts have completely derailed this thing and now Duchene's and Barrie's windows are probably wasted here and Sakic have to trade them. Then start from scratch with what? A new vision that's supposed to be much better from the guys that gave us Stuart, Berra, Beauchemin, Iginla, Colborne?

Guess we just have to hope that some of our sleeper picks turn into decent NHLers. Luck > skill.


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Old
03-01-2017, 07:52 PM
  #74
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It's hard to take him serious when he says he wants to get younger and faster when he signed Colborne and Tyutin last July 1st. Seems more like a catch phrase he throws out now that everything turned to ****.

Of course Avs are going to have to get younger and faster when they purge Iginla, Beauchemin, Stuart and so on. Hard to get older and slower.

He's been doing a good job of locking up the core to good contracts (with the exception of Stastny) and getting value for O'Reilly but beyond that this team is just blindly stumbling. Signing the wrong players to, almost always, one year too long contracts have completely derailed this thing and now Duchene's and Barrie's windows are probably wasted here and Sakic have to trade them. Then start from scratch with what? A new vision that's supposed to be much better from the guys that gave us Stuart, Berra, Beauchemin, Iginla, Colborne?

Guess we just have to hope that some of our sleeper picks turn into decent NHLers. Luck > skill.
Colborne and Tyutin were just their cheap stop gap solutions.

The problem is when it comes to good players that are available in UFA and trade, they never want to pay what it takes. So we end up with stop gap after stop gap, while our young players get older and older, and eventually their game and NHL development suffers because they're asked to do too much and not given any help.

This makes for an enormous ask to be able to draft your way out of the problem all by itself, because you're not utilizing the other two avenues of team building to address your problems.

It shouldn't be shocking that this pattern for over a decade has resulted in coaching change after coaching change, and GM change after GM change, and now multiple rebuilds/resets. It's a recipe for mediocrity at best, not success.

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03-01-2017, 08:18 PM
  #75
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Looking back I noticed that a great deal (all?) of our recent high profile FA signings have one good first season and then fall from the face of the earth. PAP, Beauchemin, Soda, Stuart, Iggy (not too bad last year).

Maybe we should have a MoneyPuck(TM) approach.

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