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Old
06-28-2016, 10:27 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Yes, they're all complementary players. And all are paid as such. Prust's contract is done and was well worth it. DD is done this year, not exactly a massive handicap. Flynn is 950K and done this year. Byron is 1.16M and only three years. Mitchell is 1.2M. It almost feels redundant explaining each and every contract to you, but let me spell it out: None of these contracts, aside from maybe Emelin's, is really handicapping us in any way. Third line and fourth line players still earn contracts too, by the way. Complaining about the likes of Byron, Flynn, Prust, and Mitchell is just silly. They are bottom six players, paid like bottom six players.

It becomes clear reading threads like these that no one really knows how other NHL teams' cap structures look.



How is it too long? It's 3 years at 1.16M. He's 27 and produces fairly well for a fourth liner while also playing PK. You're complaining for the sake of it.
...like has been explained to you already, he's a complimentary-at-best player, easily replaceable...just like everyone else that we've listed...and we have far more of the overpaid complimentary type than most NHL teams, thanks to BargainBin's love for them...just look through the lineup; we have a Top Line and 3 4th lines plus a bunch of Bottom 6 grinders to spare...no, my friend, it's you that is arguing just for the sake of it...we have too many overpaid Bottom 6ers...talk to some posters from the other Boards, they feel sorry for us because our GM is a bargain-bin diving waste of a high-priced suit...time to open your eyes, amigo...

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06-28-2016, 10:37 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLurch View Post
...like has been explained to you already, he's a complimentary-at-best player, easily replaceable...just like everyone else that we've listed...and we have far more of the overpaid complimentary type than most NHL teams, thanks to BargainBin's love for them...just look through the lineup; we have a Top Line and 3 4th lines plus a bunch of Bottom 6 grinders to spare...no, my friend, it's you that is arguing just for the sake of it...we have too many overpaid Bottom 6ers...talk to some posters from the other Boards, they feel sorry for us because our GM is a bargain-bin diving waste of a high-priced suit...time to open your eyes, amigo...
Is that so? Let's compare to Stanley Cup Finalist San Jose Sharks as an example. Their bottom 6: Karlsson-Tierney-Ward, Zubrus-Spaling-Wingels

Ward: 3.275M
Wingels: 2.475M
Spaling: 2.2M
Karlsson: 1.65M

4 players making above 1.5M.

How many Habs players on the bottom six are making more than 1.5M?

Shaw and Desharnais, if we are even playing him on our bottom 6 this year. So 4 contracts over 1.5M dedicated to their bottom six, compared to two at best for us? And you think the Habs are some sort of insane outlier that is crazy for signing a couple legit bottom 6 players to $1M? Please. And that's just the first team I could think of.

I think that you and others complaining about contracts like Byron and Flynn are completely out to lunch and looking for something to complain about, because those contracts could not be more run-of-the-mill bottom-6 contracts.

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06-28-2016, 10:44 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Speaking of Tampa in particular, I think they just tied their arms behind their back committing too much money to marginal players. The Callahan and Carle contracts come to mind.

Money wouldn't be an issue for them had they been smarter at identifying their core pieces in the past.
Ryan Callahan is just one example of "heart" not translating into what matters: WINNING. If he could have scored just even one or 2 more goals than he did, Tampa would have advanced. Tampa had too many players like that.

There is a chance Shaw might actually do something in the playoffs, but he is WAY more expensive than Prust and he might have had some help from the talent around him... When he is centered by DD or Pleks, his "heart" and grit cannot overcome our two soff and not-so-dynamic 2nd and 3rd centers in Pleks and DD, respectively, along with his own lack of skill.

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06-28-2016, 10:50 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Is that so? Let's compare to Stanley Cup Finalist San Jose Sharks as an example. Their bottom 6: Karlsson-Tierney-Ward, Zubrus-Spaling-Wingels

Ward: 3.275M
Wingels: 2.475M
Spaling: 2.2M
Karlsson: 1.65M

4 players making above 1.5M.

How many Habs players on the bottom six are making more than 1.5M?

Shaw and Desharnais, if we are even playing him on our bottom 6 this year. So 4 contracts over 1.5M dedicated to their bottom six, compared to two at best for us? And you think the Habs are some sort of insane outlier that is insane for signing a couple legit bottom 6 players to $1M? Please. And that's just the first team I could think of.

I think that you and others complaining about contracts like Byron and Flynn are completely out to lunch and looking for something to complain about, because those contracts could not be more run-of-the-mill bottom-6 contracts.
...wow, you want to compare the Stanley Cup Finalists to us...OK, let's...so Wingels and Ward would be in our Bottom 6??...and I'm pretty sure that Hertl, making 0.925 mill, started the year on the 3rd line and worked his way up to drop Ward, a Top 6 player, to the 3rd line...and while BargainBin was overpaying Emelin & Markov, San Jose doesn't have any overpaid Dmen, giving them a bit more leeway in paying forwards (see QUALITY forwards, hence the Stanley Cup Finals appearance)...if you can't see the difference, you're blind...again, you're arguinig for the sake of it, as you've been shown reality and just refuse to admit it...

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06-28-2016, 10:59 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Is that so? Let's compare to Stanley Cup Finalist San Jose Sharks as an example. Their bottom 6: Karlsson-Tierney-Ward, Zubrus-Spaling-Wingels

Ward: 3.275M
Wingels: 2.475M
Spaling: 2.2M
Karlsson: 1.65M

4 players making above 1.5M.

How many Habs players on the bottom six are making more than 1.5M?

Shaw and Desharnais, if we are even playing him on our bottom 6 this year. So 4 contracts over 1.5M dedicated to their bottom six, compared to two at best for us? And you think the Habs are some sort of insane outlier that is crazy for signing a couple legit bottom 6 players to $1M? Please. And that's just the first team I could think of.

I think that you and others complaining about contracts like Byron and Flynn are completely out to lunch and looking for something to complain about, because those contracts could not be more run-of-the-mill bottom-6 contracts.
at 3.9 and 3.5 cap hits, not 2.2 like Spaling who was a rental or 1.6 like Karlsson...

you know.




as for Ward, well he got 43 pts for those 3.27Mil and he produced at the saame rate in the PO...


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06-28-2016, 11:01 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis View Post
Ryan Callahan is just one example of "heart" not translating into what matters: WINNING. If he could have scored just even one or 2 more goals than he did, Tampa would have advanced. Tampa had too many players like that.

There is a chance Shaw might actually do something in the playoffs, but he is WAY more expensive than Prust and he might have had some help from the talent around him... When he is centered by DD or Pleks, his "heart" and grit cannot overcome our two soff and not-so-dynamic 2nd and 3rd centers in Pleks and DD, respectively, along with his own lack of skill.
Well to be fair here, Callahan played a chunk of the season and the entire playoffs with a labral tear. Not gonna blame the cripple for Tampa's misfortune here.

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06-28-2016, 11:04 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Is that so? Let's compare to Stanley Cup Finalist San Jose Sharks as an example. Their bottom 6: Karlsson-Tierney-Ward, Zubrus-Spaling-Wingels

Ward: 3.275M
Wingels: 2.475M
Spaling: 2.2M
Karlsson: 1.65M

4 players making above 1.5M.

How many Habs players on the bottom six are making more than 1.5M?

Shaw and Desharnais, if we are even playing him on our bottom 6 this year. So 4 contracts over 1.5M dedicated to their bottom six, compared to two at best for us? And you think the Habs are some sort of insane outlier that is crazy for signing a couple legit bottom 6 players to $1M? Please. And that's just the first team I could think of.

I think that you and others complaining about contracts like Byron and Flynn are completely out to lunch and looking for something to complain about, because those contracts could not be more run-of-the-mill bottom-6 contracts.

i get it, but that's not where the comparable needs to be. they need to be up front. hbas dont have a pavelski or thornton. Every. single. Cup. Contender needs two studs at C

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06-28-2016, 11:20 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLurch View Post
...but the Desharnais, Emelin, Byron, Briere, Prust, and Shaw contracts don't...
Byron at 1.16 is an overpayment. I disagree there. Don't think anyone who could be sent to the minors and have a 216000 cap hit is an overpayment. Byron played well over that level this past year.

Briere was NOT signed by Bergevin.

Prust earned his money the first two years of that deal, and MB was able to trade him when said deal didn't make sense to the team anymore.

Shaw hasn't played a single game for the team yet and is still only 24, so determining if he is overpaid can not be determined yet. That contract may turn out to be a bargain. That goes in the wait and see column.

Emelin I will grant you is overpaid by maybe 1M top (imo by 400000-500000)

Desharnais contract at the time of signing was maybe 500000 over but factoring in what ever Desharnais and Emelin are overpaid doesn't outweigh the bargains we received in Patches alone, never mind Gallagher (major bargain) and Price

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06-28-2016, 11:27 PM
  #109
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Briere was signed by Bergevin.

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06-28-2016, 11:30 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Darz View Post
Byron at 1.16 is an overpayment. I disagree there. Don't think anyone who could be sent to the minors and have a 216000 cap hit is an overpayment. Byron played well over that level this past year.

Briere was NOT signed by Bergevin.

Prust earned his money the first two years of that deal, and MB was able to trade him when said deal didn't make sense to the team anymore.

Shaw hasn't played a single game for the team yet and is still only 24, so determining if he is overpaid can not be determined yet. That contract may turn out to be a bargain. That goes in the wait and see column.

Emelin I will grant you is overpaid by maybe 1M top (imo by 400000-500000)

Desharnais contract at the time of signing was maybe 500000 over but factoring in what ever Desharnais and Emelin are overpaid doesn't outweigh the bargains we received in Patches alone, never mind Gallagher (major bargain) and Price
Correction: Briere was most definitely signed by Bergevin

http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/habs-ink-...iere-1.1353524

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06-28-2016, 11:58 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by BLASPHEMOUS View Post
Correction: Briere was most definitely signed by Bergevin

http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/habs-ink-...iere-1.1353524
Doh....confused Briere with
Parenteau for some reason. My baf

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Old
06-29-2016, 12:03 AM
  #112
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Doh....confused Briere with
Parenteau for some reason. My baf
Easy to see why, they combined to make one big mistake in the end.

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06-29-2016, 01:34 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Darz View Post
Byron at 1.16 is an overpayment. I disagree there. Don't think anyone who could be sent to the minors and have a 216000 cap hit is an overpayment. Byron played well over that level this past year.

Briere was NOT signed by Bergevin.

Prust earned his money the first two years of that deal, and MB was able to trade him when said deal didn't make sense to the team anymore.

Shaw hasn't played a single game for the team yet and is still only 24, so determining if he is overpaid can not be determined yet. That contract may turn out to be a bargain. That goes in the wait and see column.

Emelin I will grant you is overpaid by maybe 1M top (imo by 400000-500000)

Desharnais contract at the time of signing was maybe 500000 over but factoring in what ever Desharnais and Emelin are overpaid doesn't outweigh the bargains we received in Patches alone, never mind Gallagher (major bargain) and Price
Don't care about Byron.

You're wrong on Briere.

Prust was eventually traded for Kassian. Do I need to remind you how that ended?

Emelin overpaid by 1M is a lot actually and Desharnais has been dragging this team down to the bottom of the league for five years now. Over paid by 500k? More like worst signing in habs history.

If Gallagher is a bargain it's only because he signed him straight out of ELC instead of giving him a bridge deal. How much more expensive would Gallafger have cost MB waited to sign him after his bridge deal?

How much money would have been saved had we signed Subban long term instead of lowballing him with a bridge deal like everybody wanted?

Pacioretty breaking his neck is the main reason Patches signed so low rather than MB being some great negotiator and Price is only recently a bargain. He was still the second highest paid goalie at the time of the signing.

Eller will score more points than Shaw. Book it.

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06-29-2016, 03:20 AM
  #114
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The Athletic, Scott Powers, claims Shaw was asking Hawks 3.2M per 7/8 years.

The Habs ended up giving him a lot more for almost same term, huh?

Bergevin and Brisson were supposed to be friends ... does not seem like it, or is this corrupt?


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06-29-2016, 03:27 AM
  #115
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Doesn't sound like he will be here to finish the contract

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06-29-2016, 04:07 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Marksman View Post
The Athletic, Scott Powers, claims Shaw was asking Hawks 3.2M per 7/8 years.

The Habs ended up giving him a lot more for almost same term, huh?

Bergevin and Brisson were supposed to be friends ... does not seem like it, or is this corrupt?
With taxes, $3.2m in Chicago is probably more than $3.9m in Montreal. Montreal probably had to pay a bit more money and terms to avoid the NTC also. Plus...

8 years at $3.2m = 25.6m total.
6 years at $3.9m = 23.4m total.

So if you go with an 8-year deal comparison, Shaw lets $2.0m of garanteed money go, but gains 2 years. He's gambling on the fact that he'll get at least another 2-year contract, at $1.0m per...which according to some here, he has no chance of getting, since he'll be completely useless in 4 years.

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06-29-2016, 04:21 AM
  #117
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Don't care about Byron.

You're wrong on Briere.

Prust was eventually traded for Kassian. Do I need to remind you how that ended?

Emelin overpaid by 1M is a lot actually and Desharnais has been dragging this team down to the bottom of the league for five years now. Over paid by 500k? More like worst signing in habs history.

If Gallagher is a bargain it's only because he signed him straight out of ELC instead of giving him a bridge deal. How much more expensive would Gallafger have cost MB waited to sign him after his bridge deal?

How much money would have been saved had we signed Subban long term instead of lowballing him with a bridge deal like everybody wanted?

Pacioretty breaking his neck is the main reason Patches signed so low rather than MB being some great negotiator and Price is only recently a bargain. He was still the second highest paid goalie at the time of the signing.

Eller will score more points than Shaw. Book it.
I've never seen so many excuses for the sake of discrediting someone's work.....you have an excuse for everything. Price deal is good now as it was good then. Bergevin signed Pacioretty to a good deal, that's it....... Why do you need to feel the urge to discredit any of Bergevin's moves, it's so obvious that you're writing with emotion as oppose to discussing what's going on. You twist things around to fit an agenda for arguing....why?

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06-29-2016, 04:28 AM
  #118
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With taxes, $3.2m in Chicago is probably more than $3.9m in Montreal. Montreal probably had to pay a bit more money and terms to avoid the NTC also. Plus...

8 years at $3.2m = 25.6m total.
6 years at $3.9m = 23.4m total.

So if you go with an 8-year deal comparison, Shaw lets $2.0m of garanteed money go, but gains 2 years. He's gambling on the fact that he'll get at least another 2-year contract, at $1.0m per...which according to some here, he has no chance of getting, since he'll be completely useless in 4 years.
So the well oiled machine that is the Hawks was going to sign him for 8yrs?? Amazing how it's okay for another GM to make this type of offer but Bergy in is an idiot, should be fired. Man, going on that criteria, Bowman should be fired, publicly humiliated and banned from the state of Illinois for even thinking of signing Shaw for them years.

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06-29-2016, 04:35 AM
  #119
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So the well oiled machine that is the Hawks was going to sign him for 8yrs?? Amazing how it's okay for another GM to make this type of offer but Bergy in is an idiot, should be fired. Man, going on that criteria, Bowman should be fired, publicly humiliated and banned from the state of Illinois for even thinking of signing Shaw for them years.
No, Shaw asked for that contract and if hawk's GM had given him that horrendous contract, he would not be with us.

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06-29-2016, 04:38 AM
  #120
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Forsberg's deal is a "bridge-skipper". Gachenyuk is already on his bridge, and he has no reason to give Bergevin a discount now. He's gonna prove himself and make Bergevin pay for his stupidity.

If Galchenyuk explodes like a man given a fine ******* this season to forty goals or 20 more assists while still scoring 30 goals, 6.5 million will NOT be enough. Who knows, if Muller fixes the PP and advises moar Galchenyuk and no DD, it very well can happen.
There was exactly a 0% chance that Galchenyuk was going to sign a long term contract coming off his ELC. Forsberg had already hit it big with a 30+ goal season. He earned $6 million a season long term.

No one in their right mind was offering up $6 million long term to Chucky coming off a somewhat disappointing 20 goal season at age 21 as a left winger. Chucky wasn't signing long term at that point, period. Why would he? Sign a bridge, increase production, cash in. It's utter nonsense to blame MB for not signing him longer.

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06-29-2016, 04:39 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by jaffy27 View Post
So the well oiled machine that is the Hawks was going to sign him for 8yrs?? Amazing how it's okay for another GM to make this type of offer but Bergy in is an idiot, should be fired. Man, going on that criteria, Bowman should be fired, publicly humiliated and banned from the state of Illinois for even thinking of signing Shaw for them years.
Hey, don't quote me on that...I'm not against the Shaw signing.
I have my fair share of issues with Bergevin, but they're not associated with Shaw's contract. I disliked the trade more than the signing itself...I knew it would be around those numbers.

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06-29-2016, 04:42 AM
  #122
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Hey, don't quote me on that...I'm not against the Shaw signing.
I have my fair share of issues with Bergevin, but they're not associated with Shaw's contract. I disliked the trade more than the signing itself...I knew it would be around those numbers.
This why you want to trade Subban for Wheeler and Trouba ?

Because according to you, we don't have enough money to sign a UFA RW, after signing Shaw.

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06-29-2016, 04:43 AM
  #123
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There was exactly a 0% chance that Galchenyuk was going to sign a long term contract coming off his ELC. Forsberg had already hit it big with a 30+ goal season. He earned $6 million a season long term.

No one in their right mind was offering up $6 million long term to Chucky coming off a somewhat disappointing 20 goal season at age 21 as a left winger. Chucky wasn't signing long term at that point, period. Why would he? Sign a bridge, increase production, cash in. It's utter nonsense to blame MB for not signing him longer.
Unfortunately, that very good point doesn't work around here, because it doesn't fit with the narrative that Bergevin is pruposely screwing our financial structure. But I agree with you 100%. If I'm Galchenyuk's agent, no-way would I've worked on a long-term deal.

...Subban, that's a different story.

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06-29-2016, 04:55 AM
  #124
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This why you want to trade Subban for Wheeler and Trouba ?

Because according to you, we don't have enough money to sign a UFA RW, after signing Shaw.
Dude, seriously, you have some issues. Not only are you twisting every single thing I've said to support the narrative that suits you, but you're stalking me into other threads now ?

When have I ever said that we wouldn't have the money to sign a UFA ? NEVER ! In fact, you're the one *****ing about Shaw's signature, saying it'll prevent us going after the big fish. YOU ! NOT ME ! Me, I was just exploring other options, that's all.

I don't know who you think you're dealing with here, kid. I'm 37 freakin' years old, and work in finance. Juggling numbers is something that amuses me. Hockey is my passion. Blame me all you want for trying to think outside the box. Curse for not thinking that Shaw's signing is as bad as YOU think...but do everybody a favor, and do it in your head.


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06-29-2016, 05:15 AM
  #125
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Dude, seriously, you have some issues. Not only are you twisting every single thing I've said to support the narrative that suits you, but you're stalking me into other threads now ?

When have I ever said that we wouldn't have the money to sign a UFA ? NEVER ! In fact, you're the one *****ing about Shaw's signature, saying it'll prevent us going after the big fish. YOU ! NOT ME ! Me, I was just exploring other options, that's all.

I don't know who you think you're dealing with here, kid. I'm 37 freakin' years old, and work in finance. Juggling numbers is something that amuses me. Hockey is my passion. Blame me all you want for trying to think outside the box. Curse me because I don't think Shaw's signing is as bad as YOU think...but do everybody a favor, and do it in your head.
I'm not stalking you, I'm a habs.

Below, this was one of the reasons leading you to propose to trade Subban for Wheeler and Trouba.

you said: "Right now, we roughly have $6.5m in capspace (after re-signing Danault and Carr), depending on who you keep in Montreal. Bergevin usually likes to keep around $1.0m in cushion, so you pretty much have $5.5m to spend on free agents. That won't get you one of the top-end wingers on an open market, let alone two, even if you trade Desharnais and do not acquire any salaries back. Trading Emelin is another way to clear some room, but my guess is that trading him would result in us having to sign another d-man. Barberio is more of a 7th defenseman, and our talent pool in the AHL on defense isn't very strong...we would need to add depth if Emelin were to go, which means salary."


You also said that: "Now you take the $3.0m from the Subban/Trouba switch, you now have $8.5m to spend. Take out Wheelers contract, you're now at $2.9m, with another $1.0m in cushion...and only have one top-6 spot to fill. Now that alone won't allow you to get a top-6, unless you go with a Semin-ish kind of gamble. But NOW, if you ship Desharnais elsewhere, you're up to $6.4m...and are in the ballpark for another top-6 free agent."

Considering that, one of the reason we don't have enough money to sign one or two top6 UFA is because MB signed Shaw and you where ok with that signing, i found that funny.


You are ok, with signing Shaw but in the other hand you want to trade Subban.


If our dumb GM stopped after trading Eller we would have enough money to sign two good UFA's, and yet you approve the fact that he signed Shaw and you are ready to trade our best D-man, that's what i want to point out.

I twisted nothing.


Last edited by FrappeDuRocma: 06-29-2016 at 05:22 AM.
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