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Tomas Plekanec - Hope He Heats Up Soon Edition (HE SLEEPIN)

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Old
12-04-2016, 12:33 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
It wouldn't hurt Pleks to sit a game and watch, it could motivate him...as long as MT doesn't give bigger minutes to a C man who is playing even worse...Pleks Bgally and Max could all use a timeout for hotdogs in the pressbox, one game at a time.......to get them going...why not? The status quo right now is a joke...but I would start with Pleks.
sit a game? Pleks. ? The most loyal employee the habs have seen since Beliveau? Sit a game? After all the habs and fans owe him for his loyalty? Sit a game? After all the bums Tomas the martyr has been saddled with?? Come on now! That's crazy talk. He is the best player on the team and we owe him more ice time. More powerplay time. We should try to get him better wingers. Sit him? Ridiculous. ( ;

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12-04-2016, 12:43 PM
  #77
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Look i know it hard to sit through 82 games AND admit we have no chance at a cup.

But look at the reality

Center position

1. Alex Galchenyuk

2. Tomas Plekanec

3. David Desharnais

4. Tory Mitchell

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12-04-2016, 12:50 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by PaulD View Post
Look i know it hard to sit through 82 games AND admit we have no chance at a cup.

But look at the reality

Center position

1. Alex Galchenyuk

2. Tomas Plekanec

3. David Desharnais

4. Tory Mitchell
Bergevin absolutely had to fix this in the offseason, and did not, its on him

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12-04-2016, 12:51 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
Bergevin absolutely had to fix this in the offseason, and did not, its on him
And it is on Timmins, too. He passed on so many good centres over the years...

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12-04-2016, 01:14 PM
  #80
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And it is on Timmins, too. He passed on so many good centres over the years...
If Timmins had drafted a centre instead of Juulsen or Sergachev you'd be complaining about him passing on dmen.

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12-04-2016, 01:19 PM
  #81
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If Timmins had drafted a centre instead of Juulsen or Sergachev you'd be complaining about him passing on dmen.
Depth at center, is not just a Montreal Canadiens issue, it's an organizational issue.

So it's as much on Timmins as it is on Bergevin IMO.

We have so few options at center within the organization, they've had to convert a guy like McCarron to center and give guys like Hudon or Scherbak trials at center too.

It's a HUGE issue organizationally and every draft I keep thinking it will get addressed and it never does.

Habs have a lot of picks in the coming years, they just can't miss out anymore on top 6 center types

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12-04-2016, 01:19 PM
  #82
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I don't see what you're talking about here. Who says I've brushed anything off? If you look at my (few) posts on the matter, I wrote clearly that I don't disagree at all with 417's take on Plekanec. I don't see a particularly good solution with regards to moving him, and I don't quite agree with you on Plekanec being a negative on the team. I was asking you genuinely if you had a solution; not to brush off your viewpoint or criticism, but rather to make it constructive (ironic, given that you've accused me of discouraging discourse!). Perhaps I haven't conveyed my utter neutrality adequately.

My 'solution' would be to minimize Plekanec's role. Play him as a third liner. Give his minutes over to Galchenyuk. If he's slowing down, then he shouldn't be doing the same sort of lifting as he's been accustomed to doing. His minutes should be capped in the ~15-16 minute range, with good PK time. Use him in a defensive/exploitation role (if he can handle the latter). I doubt this sort of usage would increase his value for a potential trade, given his hefty price tag, but it may turn him into more of a positive player for the club.
No one "genuinely" has a solution because we don't have all the cards. Is he not listening to the coaches? Is he hurt? Is he in good spirits in the room? Are other GMs interested in him? etc.

So I found that to be an argument in bad faith, hope you see my perspective.

Your solution is okay to the near future, yes, but we can't have DD as a top6er in the playoffs. And we can't have Pleks produce as a bottom6er in the playoffs. So it's no solution at all. Either Pleks produces more, or we get someone who does. DD as a third liner, maybe we can swallow that - but Pleks as a third and DD as a second is untenable.

All of my "get rid of him" idea is coming from the angle that he will likely not improve. If he turns it around (his Sh% is quite low), then I'd rather hold onto him until the entry draft. But he absolutely must be exposed.

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Well, your premise is wrong. I wasn't advocating blind loyalty. I was quite obviously replying to the suggestion that loyalty be totally thrown out the window with SOLR's philosophy of (and I quote again) "trade them early, recycle their asset value, win." You can't do that with every asset, for the reasons I mentioned. We have at least two guys in particular - Plekanec and Markov - who have earned significantly more loyalty than that over the years.
I think your premise that Pleks has earned so much loyalty is actually wrong. Pleks has squandered a lot of loyalty - he has made himself utterly replaceable. Last season did not paint any of our leaders in a good light but Pleks as the most veteran and highest paid forward shamed himself with his play and production. Last year + his playoff disappointments + his year-to-year inconsistency + his low-key, low-impact style, to me, don't seem like circumstances that cause sports managers to trust those players blindly.

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And the suggestion that Plekanec is a negative in the room in any way is patently ridiculous. "Too comfortable as a veteran in a routine"... lol. Very much incongruous with spending extra time at practice shooting pucks on top of shouldering the most on-ice responsibility (last game aside) as a low maintenance and professional veteran who has never complained about his role. Yes, he's converting on a very low number of his shots so far. No need to make up things that you have absolutely no idea about in an effort to explain your dislike for him, though.
It's disingenuous of you to call my suggestion ridiculous. We see it all the time that coaches lose the room once they lose the vets. That coaches need to play to the whims of the vets or else they don't last long. That the vets set the tone for the room. If a vet is underperforming AND underproducing, there isn't much recourse for a coach to deal with him, now is there?

I know his Sh% is unfavorably low but I've never really focused on Pleks' stats as much as his play. I really dislike how he plays when he's cold. When he's hot, he has a spring in his skates and his passive-approach seems clever and smart. When he's cold, he's behind the play AND doesn't play the body or the boards or take good shots. It's extremely bad.

And you know what? Him staying late to shoot a few pucks is on the tip of your tongue because it was reported recently, because it was probably the first time he did so since the start of last year. I can't remember the last time I've heard any story of the sort regarding Pleks. So yeah, it's not particularly impressive to see him shoot a few pucks after practice. It's long past that point now.

And I don't think he's ever had the right to complain about his usage at all - from his third season he had Alex fkn Kovalev on his wing, and after that was the #1C from that point forward, except for one year where Gomez was technically the #1C. Best available wingers, tons of ice-time, tons of PP time, tons of PK time, tons of EN time.

One of the worst things about the Ribeiro trade is that he would have been our #1 offensive C from that year (08-09) right up until this year (15-16). Firmly because Koivu was near the end of his days, Gomez was terrible, and Pleks consistently underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
Bergevin absolutely had to fix this in the offseason, and did not, its on him
This past off-season it wasn't as high on the list as winger help. He had four other off-seasons to fix it, and didn't.

And PaulD, thank you for your compliment.

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Old
12-04-2016, 01:27 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
If Timmins had drafted a centre instead of Juulsen or Sergachev you'd be complaining about him passing on dmen.
Not the point. When Timmins/Bergevin or Co concentrate in addressing needs instead of talent and the needs are often concentrated on D.....there's a mistake. C needs were also present. Not just D.

So yeah, name of the guy is complaining about what we don't have. Especially if you don't win it all. Especially if it's because of things you don't have enough. Not sure what the problem is here. Pretty much their job to address the weaknesses of their team....

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12-04-2016, 01:33 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Depth at center, is not just a Montreal Canadiens issue, it's an organizational issue.

So it's as much on Timmins as it is on Bergevin IMO.

We have so few options at center within the organization, they've had to convert a guy like McCarron to center and give guys like Hudon or Scherbak trials at center too.

It's a HUGE issue organizationally and every draft I keep thinking it will get addressed and it never does.

Habs have a lot of picks in the coming years, they just can't miss out anymore on top 6 center types
God, i mean just draft seven 6"2 200 pound centers next year and just pray one of them pans out!

and no im not being sarcastic lol, i mean at this point we'll take anything over plek and desharnais

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12-04-2016, 02:19 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well, your premise is wrong. I wasn't advocating blind loyalty. I was quite obviously replying to the suggestion that loyalty be totally thrown out the window with SOLR's philosophy of (and I quote again) "trade them early, recycle their asset value, win." You can't do that with every asset, for the reasons I mentioned. We have at least two guys in particular - Plekanec and Markov - who have earned significantly more loyalty than that over the years.
You made the blind radical assumption that I would put Jagr in the same basket as Plekanec (ie. that my philosophy was purely ideologic). You keep doing this because you just want to argue.

Early means something different for these players (obviously):

6'3'' 1880 career points.
5'11' 560 career points.

But it's still nearly mathematical, as most careers can be modelled around an (imperfect) Bell Curve.

So this is WHY (not the ****ing loyalty argument) you keep Markov longer than Plekanec, because Markov has a much higher ceiling (top 5 D in the league at one point), therefore a loss of 5-10% of his abilities doesn't harm him as much as someone who rarely broke in the top 30 scorer. You know in ADVANCE of time that his (Pleks) bell curve will be going south much faster than your typical top 10 scorers. Why don't we act on these information? We kept Koivu too long as well, but this one, I actually understand the loyalty argument in that case (exceptions confirm the rule). Koivu was an actual leader and he would sacrifice himself, always. Pleks is doing none of that. Pleks has no marketing value whatsoever..

Even Rod Brind'amour fits that model, as his extreme training regimen simply made his career tail end longer as he was defying the incremental age-related loss in abilities by increasing his fitness level. Therefore if you had tested him, you would have not recorded much reduction in performance and it would have been possible to predict his late career surge.


Last edited by SOLR: 12-04-2016 at 02:37 PM.
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12-04-2016, 02:26 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
God, i mean just draft seven 6"2 200 pound centers next year and just pray one of them pans out!

and no im not being sarcastic lol, i mean at this point we'll take anything over plek and desharnais
Grab Petersson.

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12-04-2016, 05:37 PM
  #87
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No one "genuinely" has a solution because we don't have all the cards. Is he not listening to the coaches? Is he hurt? Is he in good spirits in the room? Are other GMs interested in him? etc.

So I found that to be an argument in bad faith, hope you see my perspective.

Your solution is okay to the near future, yes, but we can't have DD as a top6er in the playoffs. And we can't have Pleks produce as a bottom6er in the playoffs. So it's no solution at all. Either Pleks produces more, or we get someone who does. DD as a third liner, maybe we can swallow that - but Pleks as a third and DD as a second is untenable.

All of my "get rid of him" idea is coming from the angle that he will likely not improve. If he turns it around (his Sh% is quite low), then I'd rather hold onto him until the entry draft. But he absolutely must be exposed.

I do see your perspective. I don't think I'm making an argument in bad faith since, frankly, I'm not making much of an argument at all. When I ask for your solution, I'm not expecting it to be the solution. It's a more interesting dialogue than one party beating the drum that Plekanec sucks and the extension sucks, and the other party disagreeing.

I think in relegating Plekanec to a third line role, I'd be searching for someone to fulfill a 2nd line offensive role. A player that's been misused, or a rental. Ideally, Bergevin pulls out another Petry -- a player that's highly serviceable and can be borderline core. And I think the club could pay for such an asset.

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12-04-2016, 08:56 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I think your premise that Pleks has earned so much loyalty is actually wrong. Pleks has squandered a lot of loyalty - he has made himself utterly replaceable. Last season did not paint any of our leaders in a good light but Pleks as the most veteran and highest paid forward shamed himself with his play and production. Last year + his playoff disappointments + his year-to-year inconsistency + his low-key, low-impact style, to me, don't seem like circumstances that cause sports managers to trust those players blindly.
What premise are you even referring to? I provided a counter-point as to someone else's point as to why GMs don't "recycle early and often" to maximize asset value ahead of building cohesive teams. Furthermore, I never suggested any "amount" of loyalty Plekanec has/hasn't earned, so I don't know what "so much loyalty" even means. I've never said he's untradeable. I've maintained for a loooong time that it simply wouldn't be worth it for anything less than an actual (not "future" or "potential") upgrade, and we all know the organizational factors suggesting I'm right on that one. Unless the goal was to lose more games and draft higher over the past 3-4 years, I'll admit that one.

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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
It's disingenuous of you to call my suggestion ridiculous. We see it all the time that coaches lose the room once they lose the vets. That coaches need to play to the whims of the vets or else they don't last long. That the vets set the tone for the room. If a vet is underperforming AND underproducing, there isn't much recourse for a coach to deal with him, now is there?
That's all fine and good. Just don't try to use baseless speculation to counter actual fact. Baseless = he's bad in any way in the room (every tangible indication and testimony disputes such a thing). Fact = he has been spotted making extra effort in practise as the luck isn't there offensively. Baseless = he has gotten comfortable and his teammates are likely judging him for it. Fact = no one has ever said anything negative about Plekanec as a person or a player, nor called into question his preparation and professionalism.

But I love how being our best defensive forward is "underperforming" enough to draw such ire, just because his shooting percentage has been low for a while as he babysits AHL<->NHL league tweeners.

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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I know his Sh% is unfavorably low but I've never really focused on Pleks' stats as much as his play. I really dislike how he plays when he's cold. When he's hot, he has a spring in his skates and his passive-approach seems clever and smart. When he's cold, he's behind the play AND doesn't play the body or the boards or take good shots. It's extremely bad.
He's not a burner, banger or a sniper and he doesn't triple low five, so most around here get bored easily of guys like Plekanec. I get it, kids require entertainment, not efficiency and reliability (sooo last century, I know). He has never been a dynamic franchise player, but that won't stop some of you from judging him on that scale. At least when his offense isn't there, he's capable making sure his opponent's isn't either - better than any of our other centres are, anyway.

"Extremely bad"... adding more hyperbole to your previous post... yawn.

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And you know what? Him staying late to shoot a few pucks is on the tip of your tongue because it was reported recently, because it was probably the first time he did so since the start of last year. I can't remember the last time I've heard any story of the sort regarding Pleks. So yeah, it's not particularly impressive to see him shoot a few pucks after practice. It's long past that point now.
Again though, without just making something up off the top of your head, point us to something showing why we should believe that he's creating negative ripples in any way among the team, especially to the point of being content with the possibility of a lateral move. There are already so many parts of the lineup that need legitimate upgrading, that I can't believe people spend so much time contemplating how many different players could be brought in instead for the purpose of no/minimal gain.

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And I don't think he's ever had the right to complain about his usage at all
It's not about him complaining about his usage, it's about people around here complaining about the points he's putting up the way he's used.

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12-04-2016, 09:21 PM
  #89
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12-04-2016, 10:02 PM
  #90
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You know that you are the perfect poster here? I mean, everytime you post something....there's just nothing else to be said.
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It's just flat out disturbing.
Close all threads

BTW, I got your 2nd-line center right here:



I'm also a right-handed power forward and a Top 4 D

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12-05-2016, 06:14 AM
  #91
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Close all threads

BTW, I got your 2nd-line center right here:



I'm also a right-handed power forward and a Top 4 D


Drop the gloves every now and then?

Bring it come play off time?

Sign Him !

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12-05-2016, 07:58 PM
  #92
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** props to Habz4Life, a poster from another forum, for producing the shoop

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12-05-2016, 09:10 PM
  #93
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Before the Galchenyuk injury I was about to suggest that Bergevin should just send Plekanec home a bit like Uncle Bob did to Alexei Kovalev back in 2009.

Seriously, what he hell is wrong with this guy? I accepted that he wasn't a playoff player but he was always a nice reliable player who would get 50-60 point per season.

He seriously needs to get his **** together and now! If he can't provide for us when we need him the most with Galchenyuk injury and all we need to strip his A and give it to Radulov.

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12-05-2016, 11:43 PM
  #94
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Depth at center, is not just a Montreal Canadiens issue, it's an organizational issue.

So it's as much on Timmins as it is on Bergevin IMO.

We have so few options at center within the organization, they've had to convert a guy like McCarron to center and give guys like Hudon or Scherbak trials at center too.

It's a HUGE issue organizationally and every draft I keep thinking it will get addressed and it never does.

Habs have a lot of picks in the coming years, they just can't miss out anymore on top 6 center types
Well...we drafted a 3rd overall center and it took them 4 years to finally use him there despite us having a clear weakness there. Eller was also a potential top 6 center when we traded for him. They opted to focus on developing DD as the offensive center instead. I'm not saying Eller would have amounted to anything more than he has become, impossible to know imo, but he had potential and they didn't really tap into it.

Bergevin has been way too slow and passive in addressing issues of this team. This was brought up over the years. Being patient is good, but when you're too patient then players or positions that weren't an issue suddenly becomes some and your stuck in a constant circle of big holes.

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12-06-2016, 06:30 AM
  #95
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True.

They drafted a center 3rd over all and then for the next 4 years

acted as if they are so deep at center the kid cant get his chance.

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12-06-2016, 07:59 AM
  #96
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Well...we drafted a 3rd overall center and it took them 4 years to finally use him there despite us having a clear weakness there. Eller was also a potential top 6 center when we traded for him. They opted to focus on developing DD as the offensive center instead. I'm not saying Eller would have amounted to anything more than he has become, impossible to know imo, but he had potential and they didn't really tap into it.

Bergevin has been way too slow and passive in addressing issues of this team. This was brought up over the years. Being patient is good, but when you're too patient then players or positions that weren't an issue suddenly becomes some and your stuck in a constant circle of big holes.
dont disagree with this, it's also been a gripe of mine because I think the team has put all its eggs in the DD/Plekanec basket for years while never considering any other options

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12-06-2016, 09:53 AM
  #97
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What premise are you even referring to? I provided a counter-point as to someone else's point as to why GMs don't "recycle early and often" to maximize asset value ahead of building cohesive teams. Furthermore, I never suggested any "amount" of loyalty Plekanec has/hasn't earned, so I don't know what "so much loyalty" even means. I've never said he's untradeable. I've maintained for a loooong time that it simply wouldn't be worth it for anything less than an actual (not "future" or "potential") upgrade, and we all know the organizational factors suggesting I'm right on that one. Unless the goal was to lose more games and draft higher over the past 3-4 years, I'll admit that one.
Oh give me a break. Pedantry is foolish and see-through. I'm not 417 nor other constant critics/whiners. I've drastically reduced my presence here because of bad faith arguments on all sides.

Your premise (noun: a previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion.) is that Plekanec, due to his continuous presence as a Hab has earned loyalty. I think it's a faulty premise because not every long-standing member of any group, organization, team, or family earns loyalty - and especially not in a business where the average career is 5.5 years and athletic performance is paramount.

You said "We have at least two guys in particular - Plekanec and Markov - who have earned significantly more loyalty than that over the years."

Many, but let's just say I, disagree that Pleks has earned more. It's not a one-way street and you've dismissed counter-arguments suggesting that Pleks has burned through loyalty. I don't know what you want to call his dismal performance last year but it sure as hell didn't earn trust or loyalty from the GM and coach.

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That's all fine and good. Just don't try to use baseless speculation to counter actual fact. Baseless = he's bad in any way in the room (every tangible indication and testimony disputes such a thing). Fact = he has been spotted making extra effort in practise as the luck isn't there offensively. Baseless = he has gotten comfortable and his teammates are likely judging him for it. Fact = no one has ever said anything negative about Plekanec as a person or a player, nor called into question his preparation and professionalism.
It's all baseless speculation. Everything we discuss is speculation, we have no fingers on any pulse. You're saying nothing in particular with that statement.

I'm asserting that there are tangible problems with having overpaid, underproducing veterans in a lockerroom. Considering that folks form Elliot Friedman and beyond have remarked upon how toxic it can get in these circumstances, I don't think it's fair to brush away this concern.

If we needed to hear actual, notarized criticism of certain players from other players, we'd have nothing to talk about. I'm speculating that Pleks is insular and not particularly engaged with the Habs family, he's been here for years on end and he'll be forgotten very quickly as soon as he's gone. This is a town that embraced Metropolit and Darche and Robert Lang in his half-season. So it's not about being flashy in my opinion, Pleks just lacks charisma. And it shows in his perceived leadership and definitely shows in his performances.

I don't need to hear other criticism of Pleks' performances to know that his performances are worthy of criticism.

Quote:
But I love how being our best defensive forward is "underperforming" enough to draw such ire, just because his shooting percentage has been low for a while as he babysits AHL<->NHL league tweeners.
Contract + Opportunity Cost + Playoff Concerns + Watching him play.

It isn't only because of his ****** shooting percentage and you know it. The shots he takes are bad and end plays. It's been this way for a long time. It's frustrating. Furthermore, most people know that the Habs are a playoff team - the concern is that Pleks is even worse in the reg season than we expected, so when games get tighter in the playoffs he's going to be even worse than he has been and that's an unwelcome thought.

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He's not a burner, banger or a sniper and he doesn't triple low five, so most around here get bored easily of guys like Plekanec. I get it, kids require entertainment, not efficiency and reliability (sooo last century, I know). He has never been a dynamic franchise player, but that won't stop some of you from judging him on that scale. At least when his offense isn't there, he's capable making sure his opponent's isn't either - better than any of our other centres are, anyway.

"Extremely bad"... adding more hyperbole to your previous post... yawn.
You're the refined genius who counts the jazzy notes that Pleks doesn't play, right? You can see the negative space when he's a step behind the play because he's taken the long way around in order to avoid getting hit, right? I think it's childish to assume people who disagree with you are somehow incompetant. In fact, it's offensive.

I don't need or want to see Pleks only shut down opposing Cs. He's not paid to be a checking line C and he's not built as one anyway. Plenty of people score on him and he's not been Guy Carbonneau in the playoffs neither. That giveaway against Tampa is one notable play that I won't forget any time soon.

Don't act like he's a Selke winner, because he's not. He's an overpaid, underproducing C. His defensive game shouldn't be the metric because he's not paid or used as a defensive-only C.

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Again though, without just making something up off the top of your head, point us to something showing why we should believe that he's creating negative ripples in any way among the team, especially to the point of being content with the possibility of a lateral move. There are already so many parts of the lineup that need legitimate upgrading, that I can't believe people spend so much time contemplating how many different players could be brought in instead for the purpose of no/minimal gain.
I think teams/organizations with underperforming veterans are harder to course correct than those with underperforming youngsters. I've seen it in soccer plenty of times, I don't care to follow other NHL teams than the Habs but off the top of my head the late 2000s Leafs and Canes are two infamous cases of wheel-spinning due to lazy, listless veterans. It's cancerous.

Pleks is underperforming and underproducing. He's 34. He's declining. I'd argue he won't even be a good enough "one-way" defensive centre in this coming playoffs. I don't want him gone for the sake of him leaving, I want him gone because he's worn out his welcome and the organization should be getting bigger and better Cs.

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It's not about him complaining about his usage, it's about people around here complaining about the points he's putting up the way he's used.
He's used that way because he's proven to be incapable of producing as a reliable top6 player. He's let down his team and organization. And will continue to do so.

Are you watching the games man? I'm staying up late to catch some of these games and Pleks is INVISIBLE in the worst way.

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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
I do see your perspective. I don't think I'm making an argument in bad faith since, frankly, I'm not making much of an argument at all. When I ask for your solution, I'm not expecting it to be the solution. It's a more interesting dialogue than one party beating the drum that Plekanec sucks and the extension sucks, and the other party disagreeing.

I think in relegating Plekanec to a third line role, I'd be searching for someone to fulfill a 2nd line offensive role. A player that's been misused, or a rental. Ideally, Bergevin pulls out another Petry -- a player that's highly serviceable and can be borderline core. And I think the club could pay for such an asset.
I think the solution is to package Pleks and Beaulieu (who is probably closer to his ceiling than we'd like to admit) for an upgrade at C. I don't think it's tenable to fit another better C if we keep Pleks. DD is going nowhere and is terrible anyway. 9.5m in caphit on those to bozos is a really bad look, and with Gallagher under-producing and Petry and Weber drying up we need to change something about this team's make up.

Weak transition game and a C spine, it's gonna be brutal to see this team try to score goals when Pleks and DD are soaking up ice-time.

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Old
12-06-2016, 09:58 AM
  #98
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Oh give me a break. Pedantry is foolish and see-through. I'm not 417 nor other constant critics/whiners. I've drastically reduced my presence here because of bad faith arguments on all sides.

Your premise (noun: a previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion.) is that Plekanec, due to his continuous presence as a Hab has earned loyalty. I think it's a faulty premise because not every long-standing member of any group, organization, team, or family earns loyalty - and especially not in a business where the average career is 5.5 years and athletic performance is paramount.

You said "We have at least two guys in particular - Plekanec and Markov - who have earned significantly more loyalty than that over the years."

Many, but let's just say I, disagree that Pleks has earned more. It's not a one-way street and you've dismissed counter-arguments suggesting that Pleks has burned through loyalty. I don't know what you want to call his dismal performance last year but it sure as hell didn't earn trust or loyalty from the GM and coach.


It's all baseless speculation. Everything we discuss is speculation, we have no fingers on any pulse. You're saying nothing in particular with that statement.

I'm asserting that there are tangible problems with having overpaid, underproducing veterans in a lockerroom. Considering that folks form Elliot Friedman and beyond have remarked upon how toxic it can get in these circumstances, I don't think it's fair to brush away this concern.

If we needed to hear actual, notarized criticism of certain players from other players, we'd have nothing to talk about. I'm speculating that Pleks is insular and not particularly engaged with the Habs family, he's been here for years on end and he'll be forgotten very quickly as soon as he's gone. This is a town that embraced Metropolit and Darche and Robert Lang in his half-season. So it's not about being flashy in my opinion, Pleks just lacks charisma. And it shows in his perceived leadership and definitely shows in his performances.

I don't need to hear other criticism of Pleks' performances to know that his performances are worthy of criticism.


Contract + Opportunity Cost + Playoff Concerns + Watching him play.

It isn't only because of his ****** shooting percentage and you know it. The shots he takes are bad and end plays. It's been this way for a long time. It's frustrating. Furthermore, most people know that the Habs are a playoff team - the concern is that Pleks is even worse in the reg season than we expected, so when games get tighter in the playoffs he's going to be even worse than he has been and that's an unwelcome thought.


You're the refined genius who counts the jazzy notes that Pleks doesn't play, right? You can see the negative space when he's a step behind the play because he's taken the long way around in order to avoid getting hit, right? I think it's childish to assume people who disagree with you are somehow incompetant. In fact, it's offensive.

I don't need or want to see Pleks only shut down opposing Cs. He's not paid to be a checking line C and he's not built as one anyway. Plenty of people score on him and he's not been Guy Carbonneau in the playoffs neither. That giveaway against Tampa is one notable play that I won't forget any time soon.

Don't act like he's a Selke winner, because he's not. He's an overpaid, underproducing C. His defensive game shouldn't be the metric because he's not paid or used as a defensive-only C.


I think teams/organizations with underperforming veterans are harder to course correct than those with underperforming youngsters. I've seen it in soccer plenty of times, I don't care to follow other NHL teams than the Habs but off the top of my head the late 2000s Leafs and Canes are two infamous cases of wheel-spinning due to lazy, listless veterans. It's cancerous.

Pleks is underperforming and underproducing. He's 34. He's declining. I'd argue he won't even be a good enough "one-way" defensive centre in this coming playoffs. I don't want him gone for the sake of him leaving, I want him gone because he's worn out his welcome and the organization should be getting bigger and better Cs.


He's used that way because he's proven to be incapable of producing as a reliable top6 player. He's let down his team and organization. And will continue to do so.

Are you watching the games man? I'm staying up late to catch some of these games and Pleks is INVISIBLE in the worst way.


I think the solution is to package Pleks and Beaulieu (who is probably closer to his ceiling than we'd like to admit) for an upgrade at C. I don't think it's tenable to fit another better C if we keep Pleks. DD is going nowhere and is terrible anyway. 9.5m in caphit on those to bozos is a really bad look, and with Gallagher under-producing and Petry and Weber drying up we need to change something about this team's make up.

Weak transition game and a C spine, it's gonna be brutal to see this team try to score goals when Pleks and DD are soaking up ice-time.
Hmm....odd, given that your stance on Plekanec mirrors mine. I haven't said anything you haven't said about Plekanec in this very thread.

To lump me in as a "whiner" seems odd to me.

Literally EVERYTHING you're saying about Plekanec I've been saying for years.

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Old
12-06-2016, 10:40 AM
  #99
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Hmm....odd, given that your stance on Plekanec mirrors mine. I haven't said anything you haven't said about Plekanec in this very thread.

To lump me in as a "whiner" seems odd to me.

Literally EVERYTHING you're saying about Plekanec I've been saying for years.
I meant in the sense that he's been bickering with you for months now and treating you a certain way, which he has no right to assume will be applicable to how he treats my argument.

I thought I used 'nor' properly but I guess not, I didn't meant to imply you're a whiner.

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12-06-2016, 10:54 AM
  #100
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Well...we drafted a 3rd overall center and it took them 4 years to finally use him there despite us having a clear weakness there. Eller was also a potential top 6 center when we traded for him. They opted to focus on developing DD as the offensive center instead. I'm not saying Eller would have amounted to anything more than he has become, impossible to know imo, but he had potential and they didn't really tap into it.

Bergevin has been way too slow and passive in addressing issues of this team. This was brought up over the years. Being patient is good, but when you're too patient then players or positions that weren't an issue suddenly becomes some and your stuck in a constant circle of big holes.
Compare the efforts during the drafts made on replenishing the Habs D compared to the Habs C and there's a world of difference. And it's not just a question of drafting....it's a question of succeeding in those drafts. Nobody will tell me that they made an effort in replenishing our C's when they decided to go with Walsh, Dumont and Cichy in 2009. At those rounds, those are most likely to never see the day in the NHL. They decided to go with DeLaRose in 2013, a guy that was already seen as, at best a 3rd line C.

C have rarely been a target. And it shows now. Strangely, D's have been a target and when Juulsen and Sergachev will come in, it will show a whole lot. Time to concentrate on C now if they really want to go on needs. BUt it should have been done earlier. 2006 was seen as "D replenishing year". If it would have been seen C replenishing....you get Giroux. Or Johansson in 2009. Or Kuznetsov in 2010. Again, not saying that this is what they should have done. Just saying that the day you go for needs....understand that even if you believe in D depth....just believe in C depth too.

All great to talk about Galchenyuk who in reality was also playing the wings in Juniors. And a Eller who was not exactly being seen as a real top 6 C either. So in the end, since 2000, the REAL offensive C's drafted by the Habs that made a name out of themselves are Grabovski and...Plekanec. That's 2 in 16 years. And even if you want to add Galchy...it makes it at 3. Remove Grabovski who is no longer with us and an aging Pleks.

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