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Tomas Plekanec - Hope He Heats Up Soon Edition (HE SLEEPIN)

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Old
12-06-2016, 10:57 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not the point. When Timmins/Bergevin or Co concentrate in addressing needs instead of talent and the needs are often concentrated on D.....there's a mistake. C needs were also present. Not just D.
So you're unhappy with the Juulsen and Sergachev picks?

Which centre could they have selected instead that would be helping the team now?

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12-06-2016, 10:59 AM
  #102
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So you're unhappy with the Juulsen and Sergachev picks?

Which centre could they have selected instead that would be helping the team now?
I said that? Where? Look at your post, and since the answer is obviously NOBODY, why do you think it's my point?

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12-06-2016, 11:02 AM
  #103
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Nobody will tell me that they made an effort in replenishing our C's when they decided to go with Walsh, Dumont and Cichy in 2009.
Gainey went in ballistic fever mode for centres that year, and it led to nothing but failures.

He tried to go after Vincent Lecavalier and failed. He tried to go after Mats Sundin and failed.

He tried to go after Scott Gomez, he succeeded and failed the team.

Mikael Johansson and Andreas Engvist were signed as free agents.

Five of seven players drafted that year were centre, including the first rounder Louis Leblanc, who at the time was described as a bigger Tomas Plekanec.

That was a huge string of failures on Bergevin's part in rebuilding the centre depth.

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12-06-2016, 11:04 AM
  #104
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I said that? Where? Look at your post, and since the answer is obviously NOBODY, why do you think it's my point?
I thought we were discussing this organization, the Bergevin organization.

Afterwards I saw your subsequent posts, and realized that you meant the Habs organization, including prevous administrations such as Gainey.

Gainey's did have an arguable preference for drafting dmen. Bergevin's does not. Two of five first rounders have been dmen.

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12-06-2016, 11:04 AM
  #105
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Pleky is not going to "heat up" from where he is now at age 34. He may get a few multi point games here and there but he is what he is at this stage. He's lost a step and is not physical. It's not a good situation and it's the same thing that happened to Gomez. Small players with speed decline in their 30's faster.

Problem is what is the alternative options? It's best for the Habs to play sound D in front of Price and try to win games 2-1 or 3-2. The Habs are not going to be a offensive powerhouse scoring team any time soon.

I'd like to see them get players that can win puck battles along the boards and also lay hits on the other teams D more. This is lacking IMO and if they did this, they would have more offensive zone time. Other teams are exiting their zone way too easy IMO!

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12-06-2016, 11:10 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Gainey went in ballistic fever mode for centres that year, and it led to nothing but failures.

He tried to go after Vincent Lecavalier and failed. He tried to go after Mats Sundin and failed.

He tried to go after Scott Gomez, he succeeded and failed the team.

Mikael Johansson and Andreas Engvist were signed as free agents.

Five of seven players drafted that year were centre, including the first rounder Louis Leblanc, who at the time was described as a bigger Tomas Plekanec.

That was a huge string of failures on Bergevin's part in rebuilding the centre depth.
So I guess you haven't read my post. Okay, so in resume, I couldn't care less if you draft centres in ranks when whether they are C's, wingers, or d-men, they won't make it anyway as this is what happens from 4th round and later.

What they have done though is they went for a D in the first rounds of 2006, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2015, and 2016, and yes, hit a homerun in at least 3 of those picks, yep, I'm including Juulsen and Sergachev in homeruns. But in the meantime, they haven't picked 1 SINGLE C, except Galchy who was also playing the wings but yes, was drafted as a C based on this team's comments. So my comment is solely directed at those who keeps whining about how you can't get C's anywhere...well it stars with the drafts so instead of trying to build 3 teams full of D's, how about you pick some C's higher so that you will get the C he keeps whining he doesn't have?

Am I happy with Juulsen and SErgachev? You are damn right I am. But what tells you already that Jost won't be a good player? Or Brown or McLeod? What if we would have been able to move 1 spot or 2 to grab Roslovic? Would that be so bad?

Just saying.....he needs to stop whining about C's if he doesn't make them a priority at draft day. And a priority does NOT mean finishing the drafts in the 5th, 6th and 7th rounders with C's. ANd that the day you talk about "needs" as a drafting strategy, you need to realize that you NEED Centermen...

Edit: Yeah, add Leblanc. I put him on the wings, but he was drafted as a C.


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12-06-2016, 11:38 AM
  #107
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I meant in the sense that he's been bickering with you for months now and treating you a certain way, which he has no right to assume will be applicable to how he treats my argument.

I thought I used 'nor' properly but I guess not, I didn't meant to imply you're a whiner.
Got it!

Great post btw - solid arguments all around

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12-06-2016, 01:56 PM
  #108
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Oh give me a break. Pedantry is foolish and see-through. I'm not 417 nor other constant critics/whiners. I've drastically reduced my presence here because of bad faith arguments on all sides.

Your premise (noun: a previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion.) is that Plekanec, due to his continuous presence as a Hab has earned loyalty. I think it's a faulty premise because not every long-standing member of any group, organization, team, or family earns loyalty - and especially not in a business where the average career is 5.5 years and athletic performance is paramount.

You said "We have at least two guys in particular - Plekanec and Markov - who have earned significantly more loyalty than that over the years."

Many, but let's just say I, disagree that Pleks has earned more. It's not a one-way street and you've dismissed counter-arguments suggesting that Pleks has burned through loyalty. I don't know what you want to call his dismal performance last year but it sure as hell didn't earn trust or loyalty from the GM and coach.
This is a lot of wasted typing. How can you argue that he hasn't earned any loyalty over the years when he was offered a two year extension on a five year contract?? The logical leap to believe such a thing is tremendous. And then you would dispute that he maintained any of that trust from the coach/GM after last year, just to see us walk in this year using him more than any other centre again. I mean, come on. No need to argue at length/so vehemently from a losing direction.

You yourself mention that the average is about 5.5 years with a team, yet simultaneously contend that there's no element of loyalty/continuity behind Plekanec now being in his 12th full season with us (or Markov his 16th)? Are you listening to yourself right now? Both guys have filled a larger role than perhaps they "should have" for many years, and I think most within the organization realize/recognize that to some degree.
Feel free to disagree with opinion, but the proof is in the contracts/extensions, and the fact that Bergevin still hasn't pursued any moves (lateral or otherwise) to address these players, in particular, despite the advanced stage of their careers.

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It's all baseless speculation. Everything we discuss is speculation, we have no fingers on any pulse. You're saying nothing in particular with that statement.

I'm asserting that there are tangible problems with having overpaid, underproducing veterans in a lockerroom. Considering that folks form Elliot Friedman and beyond have remarked upon how toxic it can get in these circumstances, I don't think it's fair to brush away this concern.
I don't think anyone in that locker room thinks Plekanec is overpaid by anywhere near enough to bother worrying/complaining about it to the extent some around here, and I don't think they've minded watching him do a lot of the heavy lifting for them over the years despite his limitations. You can argue from general hypotheticals of worst case scenarios as much as you like, but I fail to see how you could successfully map very much of it onto the actual example of this player/team combination, specifically.

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If we needed to hear actual, notarized criticism of certain players from other players, we'd have nothing to talk about. I'm speculating that Pleks is insular and not particularly engaged with the Habs family, he's been here for years on end and he'll be forgotten very quickly as soon as he's gone. This is a town that embraced Metropolit and Darche and Robert Lang in his half-season. So it's not about being flashy in my opinion, Pleks just lacks charisma. And it shows in his perceived leadership and definitely shows in his performances.

I don't need to hear other criticism of Pleks' performances to know that his performances are worthy of criticism.
Criticizing performance is one thing. But the context of handling more responsibility than you're "supposed to" has to be involved at some level. Plekanec is a #2/3 centre who has managed to, up to last year, perform adequately in a #1 role for the better part of a decade.

"It's not about being flashy, he just lacks charisma"... I assume EA Sports has added a Charisma stat in player creation now?

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Contract + Opportunity Cost + Playoff Concerns + Watching him play.

It isn't only because of his ****** shooting percentage and you know it. The shots he takes are bad and end plays. It's been this way for a long time. It's frustrating. Furthermore, most people know that the Habs are a playoff team - the concern is that Pleks is even worse in the reg season than we expected, so when games get tighter in the playoffs he's going to be even worse than he has been and that's an unwelcome thought.
Yup, if we keep going into the playoffs without a real #1 centre, Plekanec is going to keep getting exposed as a non-franchise player if he's still in the #1 chair. I mean, that's deep, man. Might as well get rid of him and have TWO holes to fill, right?

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You're the refined genius who counts the jazzy notes that Pleks doesn't play, right? You can see the negative space when he's a step behind the play because he's taken the long way around in order to avoid getting hit, right? I think it's childish to assume people who disagree with you are somehow incompetant. In fact, it's offensive.

I don't need or want to see Pleks only shut down opposing Cs. He's not paid to be a checking line C and he's not built as one anyway. Plenty of people score on him and he's not been Guy Carbonneau in the playoffs neither. That giveaway against Tampa is one notable play that I won't forget any time soon.

Don't act like he's a Selke winner, because he's not. He's an overpaid, underproducing C. His defensive game shouldn't be the metric because he's not paid or used as a defensive-only C.
You might not want to see him checking those players, but that's what he's still asked to do. And your strawman aside about him being a Selke level defender, you should at least acknowledge that his GA/60 at ES is tops among our forwards in that role. Don't even have to be a "refined genius" to sort numbers in a table by clicking the header.

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I think teams/organizations with underperforming veterans are harder to course correct than those with underperforming youngsters. I've seen it in soccer plenty of times, I don't care to follow other NHL teams than the Habs but off the top of my head the late 2000s Leafs and Canes are two infamous cases of wheel-spinning due to lazy, listless veterans. It's cancerous.

Pleks is underperforming and underproducing. He's 34. He's declining. I'd argue he won't even be a good enough "one-way" defensive centre in this coming playoffs. I don't want him gone for the sake of him leaving, I want him gone because he's worn out his welcome and the organization should be getting bigger and better Cs.
He hasn't worn out his welcome with the organization, lol. He has worn out his welcome with people like you who simply prefer a different flavour of player. I, too, wish that we had a Crosby/Toews/Kopitar/whatever as a #1 centre instead, but let's not pretend that's what Plekanec was ever supposed to be, let alone judge him according to that standard.

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He's used that way because he's proven to be incapable of producing as a reliable top6 player. He's let down his team and organization. And will continue to do so.
10 out of 10 projection of melodrama.

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Are you watching the games man? I'm staying up late to catch some of these games and Pleks is INVISIBLE in the worst way.
Yes, I'm watching the games. And taking note of all the little things that he still does that go unnoticed while people focus on dangles instead of denied zone entries, etc.

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12-06-2016, 02:15 PM
  #109
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Paying Plekanec 7M in real money for zone entry denials

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12-06-2016, 02:47 PM
  #110
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This is a lot of wasted typing. How can you argue that he hasn't earned any loyalty over the years when he was offered a two year extension on a five year contract?? The logical leap to believe such a thing is tremendous. And then you would dispute that he maintained any of that trust from the coach/GM after last year, just to see us walk in this year using him more than any other centre again. I mean, come on. No need to argue at length/so vehemently from a losing direction.
We're speaking past each other here.

I'm arguing that he hasn't earned more. As in, if the oppurtunity comes to remove him from the organization, I don't think the folks in charge will think twice. Given last season's pathetic performance and his dramatic decline, I'm arguing that he's burned a lot of goodwill. Markov has not - stop lumping them together. Markov is elite, a warrior in his own way, and will retire a modern Habs legend.

His contract extension length and his useage has nothing to do with this particular argument. I'm clearly referring to something else.

Quote:
You yourself mention that the average is about 5.5 years with a team, yet simultaneously contend that there's no element of loyalty/continuity behind Plekanec now being in his 12th full season with us (or Markov his 16th)? Are you listening to yourself right now? Both guys have filled a larger role than perhaps they "should have" for many years, and I think most within the organization realize/recognize that to some degree.
Feel free to disagree with opinion, but the proof is in the contracts/extensions, and the fact that Bergevin still hasn't pursued any moves (lateral or otherwise) to address these players, in particular, despite the advanced stage of their careers.
Average NHL career is 5.5 years, not with one team. Pleks is an outlier in every way, and his underwhelming career indicates, to me, that he's not bound to stay with the Habs for much longer.

Don't conflate BargainBin's ineptitude (he targeted Lucic over Radulov this off-season) and this organization's fetish for complacency and mediocrity for any sort tacit approval of Plekanec's personal brand of mediocrity.

Quote:
I don't think anyone in that locker room thinks Plekanec is overpaid by anywhere near enough to bother worrying/complaining about it to the extent some around here, and I don't think they've minded watching him do a lot of the heavy lifting for them over the years despite his limitations. You can argue from general hypotheticals of worst case scenarios as much as you like, but I fail to see how you could successfully map very much of it onto the actual example of this player/team combination, specifically.
I'm clearly referring to coaching/managing the player and not anything else. Stop shadowboxing.

Quote:
Criticizing performance is one thing. But the context of handling more responsibility than you're "supposed to" has to be involved at some level. Plekanec is a #2/3 centre who has managed to, up to last year, perform adequately in a #1 role for the better part of a decade.

"It's not about being flashy, he just lacks charisma"... I assume EA Sports has added a Charisma stat in player creation now?
He's overused for his production as a #2C and is overpaid as a #3C. That's the whole problem. At 3.5m we'd be a lot less frustrated by this stooge.

Charisma in his performances is a real thing. He lacks technique and chemistry, and evidently, leadership.

Quote:
Yup, if we keep going into the playoffs without a real #1 centre, Plekanec is going to keep getting exposed as a non-franchise player if he's still in the #1 chair. I mean, that's deep, man. Might as well get rid of him and have TWO holes to fill, right?
He doesn't have to be franchise-player good for fans to like him. He's so far from being a #1C that folks are wondering if they should play Radulov or Lehkonen as a #1 centre. That's how bad he's been.

If Pleks is on this team next year, I'll be astonished.

Quote:
You might not want to see him checking those players, but that's what he's still asked to do. And your strawman aside about him being a Selke level defender, you should at least acknowledge that his GA/60 at ES is tops among our forwards in that role. Don't even have to be a "refined genius" to sort numbers in a table by clicking the header.
Yeah. You really do think you see the notes he doesn't play. Jesus christ. 6m caphit demands more. If you disagree, just say so.

http://puckalytics.com/#/skaters?TOI...rue&paginate=0

I'm not impressed by Plekanec at all.
Quote:
He hasn't worn out his welcome with the organization, lol. He has worn out his welcome with people like you who simply prefer a different flavour of player. I, too, wish that we had a Crosby/Toews/Kopitar/whatever as a #1 centre instead, but let's not pretend that's what Plekanec was ever supposed to be, let alone judge him according to that standard.
I'd prefer a player who could pass and shoot, and at his style of playing, his consistent disappointments in the playoffs, his putrid play last year and a cap hit of 6m, I think he's hurting this team's chances of winning.

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Yes, I'm watching the games. And taking note of all the little things that he still does that go unnoticed while people focus on dangles instead of denied zone entries, etc.
If only he could pass or shoot the puck.

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Old
12-06-2016, 02:58 PM
  #111
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Yeah like many have said

There is no "waking up" for pleks...what youre seeing is what you get.. he is a diminished player and simply cant produce on offense anymore

thanks for all the years of service, but its time to go

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12-06-2016, 03:39 PM
  #112
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If Pleks is on this team next year, I'll be astonished.
I'll be astonished if Bergevin can replace both Plekanec and Desharnais.

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12-06-2016, 05:12 PM
  #113
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We're speaking past each other here.

I'm arguing that he hasn't earned more. As in, if the oppurtunity comes to remove him from the organization, I don't think the folks in charge will think twice. Given last season's pathetic performance and his dramatic decline, I'm arguing that he's burned a lot of goodwill. Markov has not - stop lumping them together. Markov is elite, a warrior in his own way, and will retire a modern Habs legend.

His contract extension length and his useage has nothing to do with this particular argument. I'm clearly referring to something else...
We can stop it right there, because therein lies the problem. You're clearly referring to something else, and it's certainly not the topic of the past 3-4 years (or more) that I've been discussing. If you're referring to the future, well that's your conversation, and all I can do is repeat (for the umpteenth time) that I've never said he's untradeable/untouchable, and that I simply see very few potential circumstances in which a lateral move (let alone an "unloading", as some pine for) is made to remove him from the equation, and I'm not going to type out any of the reasoning again nor waste the time expanding on any of them if we're just going to get into these 1000 word essays on less than nothing.

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12-07-2016, 06:52 AM
  #114
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We can stop it right there, because therein lies the problem. You're clearly referring to something else, and it's certainly not the topic of the past 3-4 years (or more) that I've been discussing. If you're referring to the future, well that's your conversation, and all I can do is repeat (for the umpteenth time) that I've never said he's untradeable/untouchable, and that I simply see very few potential circumstances in which a lateral move (let alone an "unloading", as some pine for) is made to remove him from the equation, and I'm not going to type out any of the reasoning again nor waste the time expanding on any of them if we're just going to get into these 1000 word essays on less than nothing.
I'm discussing Plekanec - past, present, and future.

No need for essays, but I don't understand where you're coming from nor why you responded to my previous posts with such intensity.

I'm not an EA Sports-style fan, I personally don't care if he's flashy or isn't. But him not being flashy, not being physical, not being outspoken, not having playoff achievements, etc. contributes to a greater picture that is Tomas Plekanec. You don't want to examine the guy, okay.

He had a good night last night - how much longer until his next good showing? He's been bad so far this year. Forget replacing him, or conjuring trade scenarios with 100% certainty - can we discuss how he plays?

You cite zone entries denied. I'll keep a look out for how good Pleks actually is defensively, going into 2017. Because he's in his mid-thirties and given a ton of ice-time. If all he can do is suppress opposing forwards at an above-average rate (he's not even the best top6er we have at this) then he is still worthy of criticism and pressure.

And frankly, I think he's played so poorly, so often that he shouldn't be given an oppurtunity to retire a Hab. I don't think he will retire after his last contract, but I really want to see his poor performances and listless play addressed with a solid trade. If freaking Subban gets dealt the way he was, for a relatively sub-par asset - Pleks has no business sticking it up on this team, in the playoffs, year after year on the top lines. It's infuriating.

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12-07-2016, 07:23 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I'm discussing Plekanec - past, present, and future.

No need for essays, but I don't understand where you're coming from nor why you responded to my previous posts with such intensity.

I'm not an EA Sports-style fan, I personally don't care if he's flashy or isn't. But him not being flashy, not being physical, not being outspoken, not having playoff achievements, etc. contributes to a greater picture that is Tomas Plekanec. You don't want to examine the guy, okay.

He had a good night last night - how much longer until his next good showing? He's been bad so far this year. Forget replacing him, or conjuring trade scenarios with 100% certainty - can we discuss how he plays?

You cite zone entries denied. I'll keep a look out for how good Pleks actually is defensively, going into 2017. Because he's in his mid-thirties and given a ton of ice-time. If all he can do is suppress opposing forwards at an above-average rate (he's not even the best top6er we have at this) then he is still worthy of criticism and pressure.

And frankly, I think he's played so poorly, so often that he shouldn't be given an oppurtunity to retire a Hab. I don't think he will retire after his last contract, but I really want to see his poor performances and listless play addressed with a solid trade. If freaking Subban gets dealt the way he was, for a relatively sub-par asset - Pleks has no business sticking it up on this team, in the playoffs, year after year on the top lines. It's infuriating.
Agree one hundred per cent.

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12-07-2016, 07:28 AM
  #116
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JDLR would seem to be the best option available at center, taking over the defensive center responsibilities currently being employed by Plekanec & Danault. Leaving Torrie Mitchell & Brian Flynn as our veteran defensive centermen, with JDLR sharing some of their icetime, otherwise opponents will take advantage with Top Six icetime against those centers, IMHO.

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12-07-2016, 07:29 AM
  #117
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Plekanec is much more valuable to this team than people give him credit for, he's not an offensive powerhouse and never really was. It's his metagame that is more important. He can be used in many different situations on the ice, and is a good defensive forward.

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12-07-2016, 07:33 AM
  #118
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Plekanec is much more valuable to this team than people give him credit for, he's not an offensive powerhouse and never really was. It's his metagame that is more important. He can be used in many different situations on the ice, and is a good defensive forward.
For him to be effective for us he needs to show some offense. He's paid too much money and we rely on him too much to be a checker. Great game from him last night, I haven't seen that Plekanec in I don't know how long and I hope we see more of it because we really need him right now.

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12-07-2016, 07:36 AM
  #119
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Plekanec is much more valuable to this team than people give him credit for, he's not an offensive powerhouse and never really was. It's his metagame that is more important. He can be used in many different situations on the ice, and is a good defensive forward.
So if that is worth 6 million a year then Price deserves 50 and Weber 25 million.

If a rookie came up and played like Plekanec has been, not only would he not get 6 mill a year. He would be back in the minors long ago.

Pleks is here for two reasons. Past performance and his way over paid

contract.

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12-07-2016, 07:39 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by S Bah View Post
JDLR would seem to be the best option available at center, taking over the defensive center responsibilities currently being employed by Plekanec & Danault. Leaving Torrie Mitchell & Brian Flynn as our veteran defensive centermen, with JDLR sharing some of their icetime, otherwise opponents will take advantage with Top Six icetime against those centers, IMHO.
JDLR has even less offense than Plekanec.

Who would play those big minutes and actually produce?

Quote:
Originally Posted by expy View Post
Plekanec is much more valuable to this team than people give him credit for, he's not an offensive powerhouse and never really was. It's his metagame that is more important. He can be used in many different situations on the ice, and is a good defensive forward.
There's a world of difference between offensive powerhouses and merely competent two-way forwards. Pleks is no longer a competent two-way forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
For him to be effective for us he needs to show some offense. He's paid too much money and we rely on him too much to be a checker. Great game from him last night, I haven't seen that Plekanec in I don't know how long and I hope we see more of it because we really need him right now.
Yup.

The fact that folks in the media and elsewhere were openly wondering if Radulov or Lehkonen could play C was a sign - no one trusts Pleks anymore.

He reminds me of late-stage Gionta. You just knew that plays would die on his stick, and off his terrible, whimpy shot. But while Gionta had an excuse to avoid contact, Pleks does not. He plays a chippy dirty game all while leaving the brunt of the physical play to the likes of Gallagher. Oh, and he can't pass or make plays - his vision is lacking.

The guy has to play with on-fire topX wingers in order to produce. Otherwise he's startlingly mediocre as a playmaker if you consider his bundles of ice-time and favourable linemates.

I'm just sick of seeing him as a Hab, tbh.

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Old
12-07-2016, 07:43 AM
  #121
jaffy27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Paying Plekanec 7M in real money for zone entry denials
Which equates to 9.3m$ CND, give or take a few 100 thousand.

I'm glad he stepped it up last night, but I'll remain cautiously optimistic when it comes to Plekanec

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Old
12-07-2016, 07:53 AM
  #122
PaulD
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Plekanec 7 mill cap hit.

Other players with same and less in 016-017

Seguin
Kessel
Thorton
Giordano
Bishop
Burns
Wheeler
Kieth
Hoffman
Tavares
Carter
Karlsson
Pavelski
Price
Backstrom
Duchene
Hall
Boumiester
Eberle
Schieflie
Seabrook

Is it any wonder he is taking heat? Really?

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Old
12-07-2016, 07:59 AM
  #123
417
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I saw shades of the productive Tomas Plekanec last night....he actually showed some creativity with the puck and didn't always go for the low %'age shot.

Hopefully a sign of things to come given the Habs state of affairs at center ice.

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Old
12-07-2016, 08:13 AM
  #124
ECWHSWI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulD View Post
Plekanec 7 mill cap hit.

Other players with same and less in 016-017

Seguin
Kessel
Thorton
Giordano
Bishop
Burns
Wheeler
Kieth
Hoffman
Tavares
Carter
Karlsson
Pavelski
Price
Backstrom
Duchene
Hall
Boumiester
Eberle
Schieflie
Seabrook

Is it any wonder he is taking heat? Really?
nope.

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Old
12-07-2016, 08:13 AM
  #125
PaulD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I saw shades of the productive Tomas Plekanec last night....he actually showed some creativity with the puck and didn't always go for the low %'age shot.

Hopefully a sign of things to come given the Habs state of affairs at center ice.
I saw shades of Scott Gomez in his final two seasons as well.

Shades of Gonchar in his last season too.

Pleks is finished. Wishful thinking because we are shallow at center is

understandable yet unrealistic.

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