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Alain Vigneault Part IV

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Old
12-08-2016, 08:35 AM
  #26
Mac n Gs
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Is no one gonna give AV any credit for adjusting his system to fit the new forwards we had? At least give him the benefit of the doubt to see how we look when we're healthy again, and I'm saying that as someone who wanted AV fired after last season.

After this last slew of injuries, we're missing four players that have been top-6 forwards for us this year. No team can sustain those types of injuries.

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12-08-2016, 08:58 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Mac n Gs View Post
Is no one gonna give AV any credit for adjusting his system to fit the new forwards we had? At least give him the benefit of the doubt to see how we look when we're healthy again, and I'm saying that as someone who wanted AV fired after last season.

After this last slew of injuries, we're missing four players that have been top-6 forwards for us this year. No team can sustain those types of injuries.
He did not adjust his system. He just got faster players. When the league did the same thing that they did last year, the same exact ugly problems reared their head. This is nothing but a faster version of last year's team.

Injuries has absolutely nothing to do with stickhandling through a wall of opposition. Injuries has nothing to do with the inability to chip the puck off of the boards or win a battle in the corner. And it has nothing to do with clearing traffic away from Henke.

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12-08-2016, 10:07 AM
  #28
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AV is a good coach. But he is also a coach that can only get a team to a certain spot. And he has also shown that in the NHL. Couple that with the maddening inability to make any sort of adjustment to his gameplan, and you get what you get. Blaming everything on roster make up is one thing. Blaming Henke is one thing. Not assigning any portion to the man who makes the game plan is another.
2011 Game 7 of the Finals, 2014 Game 5 of the Finals, 2015 President's Trophy and Game 7 of ECF.

Maybe it's my 30 years of Ranger fandom speaking and being used to coming up short (and often times WAY short), but if thats the "certain spot" that this coach can take the team every couple of years, Ill take my chances.

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Old
12-08-2016, 10:31 AM
  #29
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He did not adjust his system. He just got faster players. When the league did the same thing that they did last year, the same exact ugly problems reared their head. This is nothing but a faster version of last year's team.

Injuries has absolutely nothing to do with stickhandling through a wall of opposition. Injuries has nothing to do with the inability to chip the puck off of the boards or win a battle in the corner. And it has nothing to do with clearing traffic away from Henke.
They're playing zone and not sending three guys behind the goal line, so yes he did change the system.

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12-08-2016, 11:39 AM
  #30
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They're playing zone and not sending three guys behind the goal line, so yes he did change the system.
theyre playing man to man, but the defenseman will release a forward once they get to the hash marks/tops of the circles and switch back to d. its a modified system, but it still requires the forwards to pick up a ton of the slack defensively.

also the forwards are dropping back a lot lower to receive the outlet passes so they can transport it up. the defenseman are unable to make long tape to tape passes and try to bang everything off the glass, so AV has the forwards doing all the work. IE, our defense sucks, he knows it, and hes adjusting his system to compensate.

HOWEVER, he continues to play his worst defenseman against the best players, and continues to give way too many minutes to players who are underserving of those minutes on a game to game basis.

some games KK looks horrible and DG looks serviceable, their minutes should be heavier loaded towards DG...and vice versa...but thats almost never the case...DG will almost always play the bigger and harder minutes without fail.

with that said. AV has improved in some areas, but the underlying problem...his allocation of minutes and matchups is ABHORRENT.

he might be the worst coach in the entire effing NHL when it comes to roster management.

hes made some strong adjustments on the ice...and i give him all the credit in the world. but the adjustments are almost contrary to the allocation of minutes. they say 2 different things.

my final thought on AV is this. Henrik has struggled...repeatedly...hes NOT doing a good job of getting Raanta into more games and hes doing a terrible job of pulling Henrik when it's clear hes struggling. You measure success by wins and losses coach..you just said it after the last game. well, youre doing 2 things to shoot your team, your fans, and yourself in the foot.

they are also, inarguably, the 2 easiest things for a coach to fix.

getting a change in a system implemented is hard...its the hardest thing for a coach. getting players to change habits and to adjust like this...he gets some big time kudos from me. but the other 2. they have been there since long before he was the HC of the NY Rangers. they will never leave...and so, he must.

Fire AV.

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Old
12-08-2016, 12:16 PM
  #31
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2011 Game 7 of the Finals, 2014 Game 5 of the Finals, 2015 President's Trophy and Game 7 of ECF.

Maybe it's my 30 years of Ranger fandom speaking and being used to coming up short (and often times WAY short), but if thats the "certain spot" that this coach can take the team every couple of years, Ill take my chances.
And what makes him better than a......Torts??

You can take whatever you want. You can also refuse to call a spade a spade.

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12-08-2016, 12:37 PM
  #32
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And what makes him better than a......Torts??

You can take whatever you want. You can also refuse to call a spade a spade.
I thought Torts was a good coach too, so Im not sure what the point of that question is.

If your benchmark for a coach/new coach is a guy that can definitely take this team to the Cup, I think you'll be searching for a long time.

The worst and most incessant viewpoint on this board is that a coach is all thats standing in the way of this team winning. That a coach can turn chicken**** into chicken salad all the way to a championship. That a new coach and Clendening will help solve the issues at RD. Various stages of ridiculousness.

Perhaps I'd advocate a mid-year coaching change to ignite this team, hoping they can replicate what Pittsburgh did last season. But first you'll have to show me where the Crosby/Malkin/Kessel/Letang core is to lean on for that.

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12-08-2016, 12:48 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
2011 Game 7 of the Finals, 2014 Game 5 of the Finals, 2015 President's Trophy and Game 7 of ECF.

Maybe it's my 30 years of Ranger fandom speaking and being used to coming up short (and often times WAY short), but if thats the "certain spot" that this coach can take the team every couple of years, Ill take my chances.
That's a bingo

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Old
12-08-2016, 01:45 PM
  #34
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If your benchmark for a coach/new coach is a guy that can definitely take this team to the Cup, I think you'll be searching for a long time.
BTW, we are not arguing that AV is a good coach or not. I never said that he was not. I clearly do not believe him to be as good as you do.
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The worst and most incessant viewpoint on this board is that a coach is all thats standing in the way of this team winning. That a coach can turn chicken**** into chicken salad all the way to a championship. That a new coach and Clendening will help solve the issues at RD. Various stages of ridiculousness.
Not my assertion at all. However, a coach can certainly hinder his teams chances. AV's inability to adjust to what he drew up on the board represents that thing to me. So too does his personnel decision making.
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Perhaps I'd advocate a mid-year coaching change to ignite this team, hoping they can replicate what Pittsburgh did last season. But first you'll have to show me where the Crosby/Malkin/Kessel/Letang core is to lean on for that.
Not really sure how this pertains to me.

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Old
12-08-2016, 04:18 PM
  #35
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For some people the coach is never a problem. That's been an HF mentality for as long as I can remember. I've always figured it was because of Sather. Any criticism of the team that wasn't directed completely and totally at him was regarded as a personal affront to some posters.

You could never blame the players because its not their fault they are awful. They were born that way. What do you expect??

And you could never blame the coaches because the players sucked and any idiotic decisions were always secondary to the personnel problems. What do you expect??

I expect a coach to play the best lineup every night. If you're not doing that, you're acting idiotically. I don't care if you have a Cup, Jack Adams, 2 People Choice Awards and Nobel prize in your trophy case at home.

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Old
12-08-2016, 05:28 PM
  #36
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What about:

2012 - Lost in 1st round
2013 - Lost in 1st round
2016 - Lost in 1st round

If two pretty lucky bounces don't stop them from getting bounced in 5 against the Caps in 2015 and you add lost in 2nd round in there does it look as peachy?

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12-09-2016, 09:27 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Mac n Gs View Post
Is no one gonna give AV any credit for adjusting his system to fit the new forwards we had? At least give him the benefit of the doubt to see how we look when we're healthy again, and I'm saying that as someone who wanted AV fired after last season.

After this last slew of injuries, we're missing four players that have been top-6 forwards for us this year. No team can sustain those types of injuries.
Implemented a band-aid strategy that was easy to figure out and keeps making the "problem" that forced him to change systems worse.

So, no.

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Old
12-09-2016, 10:49 AM
  #38
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Old
12-09-2016, 10:58 AM
  #39
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Who blames AV for the way his players play? The blame falls on him playing players that can't play.

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12-09-2016, 12:32 PM
  #40
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Who blames AV for the way his players play? The blame falls on him playing players that can't play.
Ah, so we are blaming AV for the injuries to Zibanejad, Buchnevich, Vesey and Nash now. Good to know.

Are we also blaming him for not having a better alternative on the right side for the top D-pair? Why not blame him for not having a top-3 pick in the draft while we're at it

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12-09-2016, 01:00 PM
  #41
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Ah, so we are blaming AV for the injuries to Zibanejad, Buchnevich, Vesey and Nash now. Good to know.

Are we also blaming him for not having a better alternative on the right side for the top D-pair? Why not blame him for not having a top-3 pick in the draft while we're at it
Bingo.

Over the last 2 seasons, the constant complaining has been around:

Tanner Glass: who, by the way, still hasnt been called up despite about 600 injuries to the forwards. Can the group, who had a legitimate point last season, compliment AV for abandoning him this season? Nope, they'll just complain about what happened last season. Man, if we only saw more Emerson Etem instead....

Staal and (especially Girardi): these guys have struggled, no doubt. They've very good at pointing that out. What they're terrible at is gauging what a "better player" really is. McIlrath? Swing and a miss. Clendening? Give me a break. These people need to take a long, hard look in the mirror when making declarative statements about better options being readily available and AV just ignoring it.

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12-09-2016, 04:48 PM
  #42
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We passed dismissing Clendening as being a better option than Girardi/Klein about a month ago.

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Old
12-09-2016, 04:54 PM
  #43
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We passed dismissing Clendening as being a better option than Girardi/Klein about a month ago.
Gonna disagree. They see the guy play everyday. Even when he's not 'playing' he's playing.

Everyone from their scouts, assistant coaches and management see him play. If he really is 'objectively' better than Girardi, he'd be there.

What's the logic behind him not? AV has a bias toward Girardi? (a player whos game is almost in complete contradiction to the one the coach likes to play, btw).



Adam Clendenning has some better tools than Girardi, mainly puck moving and offense, but he is far from being a top4 NHL defenseman right now.

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12-09-2016, 05:04 PM
  #44
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Gonna disagree. They see the guy play everyday. Even when he's not 'playing' he's playing.

Everyone from their scouts, assistant coaches and management see him play. If he really is 'objectively' better than Girardi, he'd be there.

What's the logic behind him not? AV has a bias toward Girardi? (a player whos game is almost in complete contradiction to the one the coach likes to play, btw).



Adam Clendenning has some better tools than Girardi, mainly puck moving and offense, but he is far from being a top4 NHL defenseman right now.
Here's the thing though...

As bad as Clendening might be, he's 23 years old, and there's a chance he can work out of those issues IF HE PLAYS...

Girardi on the other hand is 32, and is rapidly declining. Sure, you
"know what you're getting from him", but what good is it if all you're getting is **** performances?

Which brings us to one of the following answers:

a) AV loves Girardi's contradicting style of hockey
b) Gorton is forcing AV to play Girardi
c) The heads (Gorton or AV) have different opinions on what to do about Girardi and therefore the coach just does what he wants.

See whenever you look at AV and his "puck moving system", you have to realize there are emotional exceptions he makes to certain players--Glass, Girardi, Staal all get special treatment, and that's primiarily because AV personally favors them, and he also has a slightly antiquated view on what the game is, meaning he thinks these statistical negatives that these guys are posting are BS, and waht AV knows is what goes, because he says so.

it's very, very evident that he can't seem to adapt to the new NHL. I'm not saying he is a bad coach, but he has some fundamental flaws in his coaching style that hamper him to nearly useless levels

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12-09-2016, 05:09 PM
  #45
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Gonna disagree. They see the guy play everyday. Even when he's not 'playing' he's playing.

Everyone from their scouts, assistant coaches and management see him play. If he really is 'objectively' better than Girardi, he'd be there.

What's the logic behind him not? AV has a bias toward Girardi? (a player whos game is almost in complete contradiction to the one the coach likes to play, btw).
Are these the same scouts, assistant coaches and management that collectively thought signing Girardi over Stralman was a good idea? Or for that matter thought playing Girardi over Stralman on the PP for an entire season was a good idea?

To say that AV has a "bias toward" Girardi is a little awkward. He definitely has "loyalty toward" him.

And I think it blinds him to the fact that Girardi has been a disaster for a long time.

Like I said, we are way past laughing off any possible replacements. They should be giving an extended look to every right D they have, because as this point it would be hard to do worse. Even if Girardi is locked we are still left with Klein, who is either injured or has completely lost his game.

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Old
12-09-2016, 05:10 PM
  #46
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Behind door number 1, there is a 100% chance you'll get your foot slammed on

Behind door number 2, there's a 75% chance you'll get punched in the stomach really hard, and a 25% chance nothing will happen to you.

Door number 1 is Girardi.
Door number 2 is Clendening.

AV knows for a fact he'll get his foot slammed on, and he's ready to live with that, as he is very protective of his stomach, and doesn't want to risk being punched there really hard no matter what.

This metaphor brought to you by: "really ****ty metaphors!" I need to stick to Haikus

A known outcome
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Always be chosen

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12-09-2016, 05:19 PM
  #47
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Once again, literally every coach in the league would be playing Girardi over Clendening in this current situation. Babcock, Quennville, McClellan, DeBoer, whoever it is, no matter how good or bad of a coach they are, would not be playing this situation any differently. Blame Sather for signing Girardi to this contract in the first place.

It's not like we have Drew Doughty on the bench of favor of G. Do I think Clendening should be playing? Yes. Do I think Girardi sitting in favor of him is even remotely realistic? No.

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12-09-2016, 05:50 PM
  #48
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Are these the same scouts, assistant coaches and management that collectively thought signing Girardi over Stralman was a good idea? Or for that matter thought playing Girardi over Stralman on the PP for an entire season was a good idea?

To say that AV has a "bias toward" Girardi is a little awkward. He definitely has "loyalty toward" him.

And I think it blinds him to the fact that Girardi has been a disaster for a long time.

Like I said, we are way past laughing off any possible replacements. They should be giving an extended look to every right D they have, because as this point it would be hard to do worse. Even if Girardi is locked we are still left with Klein, who is either injured or has completely lost his game.
Revisionist history is what you're citing. Go back to the Dan Girardi signs an extension thread and see how everyone felt about, it. Here ill give you the link.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1613485 (get ready to cringe guys)

Stralman showed no offense when he was here, of course he woulnd't be on the PP. You're rewriting history as you see it, honestly.

In hindsight, extending him and not Stralman looks really bad, but only in hindsight.

Girardi was once an established and dare I say 'elite' NHL defenseman. Adam Clendenning has never played at a level close to Dan at his peak.

Rangers need to give up a forward and get an actual top4 RHD and relegate Girardi to a 3rd pair and PK role. Clendenning can go play in the AHL for all I care.

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12-09-2016, 06:02 PM
  #49
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Once again, literally every coach in the league would be playing Girardi over Clendening in this current situation. Babcock, Quennville, McClellan, DeBoer, whoever it is, no matter how good or bad of a coach they are, would not be playing this situation any differently. Blame Sather for signing Girardi to this contract in the first place.

It's not like we have Drew Doughty on the bench of favor of G. Do I think Clendening should be playing? Yes. Do I think Girardi sitting in favor of him is even remotely realistic? No.
Yeah I don't think thats evenly remotely true. Most coaches would have bounced Girardi off the first pair a long time ago. Girardi has been a great Ranger but this isn't some first ballot HOFer we need to give special treatment to.

Leetch and Beukeboom are probably the most iconic Rangers pair in the past 40 years and they got split up about 3 weeks into a season when Beukes game went of a cliff. We're approaching 3 years with Girardi.

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12-09-2016, 06:18 PM
  #50
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Revisionist history is what you're citing. Go back to the Dan Girardi signs an extension thread and see how everyone felt about, it. Here ill give you the link.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1613485 (get ready to cringe guys)

Stralman showed no offense when he was here, of course he woulnd't be on the PP. You're rewriting history as you see it, honestly.

In hindsight, extending him and not Stralman looks really bad, but only in hindsight.

Girardi was once an established and dare I say 'elite' NHL defenseman. Adam Clendenning has never played at a level close to Dan at his peak.

Rangers need to give up a forward and get an actual top4 RHD and relegate Girardi to a 3rd pair and PK role. Clendenning can go play in the AHL for all I care.
Are we talking about your "coaches, scouts, management" experts or about popular opinion on HF? Signing Girardi and Boyle over Stralman was their call and has turned into an apocalyptic level F up. Putting Dan Girardi every night on the 1st pair is there call, and is a horror show. And you think its a good idea to trust these people when it comes to Dan Girardi?

Frankly I could care less what Girardi was. I care about what he is and what he has been the last few seasons. Which is a disaster. Holden played better with McD this year. Hell, as nightmarish as Klein has been at least he has some success with McDonagh in the past.

Like I said we are past laughing off any possible solution to problem.

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