HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Alain Vigneault Part IV

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-14-2016, 05:47 PM
  #101
True Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 17,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 100Gs View Post
This is very vague. What do you mean by 'offense' and contributing to it? Putting up points on the scoresheet?
I am addressing the "best defense is a good offense" theory.
Quote:
His defensive play (shutting down the blue line, winning puck battles, etc) allows his team to play in the offensive zone.
That is how I usually think of "defensive" play.
Quote:
Also, pinching in the offensive zone and keeping pucks at the blueline can also be thought of as 'defense' as you are not allowing the other team to escape with the puck and go to attack in your end. You are basically 'playing defense in the offensive zone'.
And this is one of the ways to view "offensive" plays. I do not subscribe that pinching is good defense.

I would again suggest that these conversations probably belong in Girardi's thread.

True Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2016, 06:14 PM
  #102
an Girar i
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,840
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
I am addressing the "best defense is a good offense" theory.

That is how I usually think of "defensive" play.

And this is one of the ways to view "offensive" plays. I do not subscribe that pinching is good defense.

I would again suggest that these conversations probably belong in Girardi's thread.
Agree to disagree. But if you think of it like this you can see why it might be regarded as 'defense'. A well timed/read pinch can obviously thwart a zone exit and thus a potential zone entry. I think you'd agree a defenseman skating with a good gap and denying an attacking forward the blue line, is good defense. So, if you think of it like that Pinch == Zone Exit thwarted == which equals zone entry thwarted, it can be concluded that Pinch == Thwarted Zone Entry and thus a 'defensive play'.

This is overtime AF for the Coaches Discussion thread, but were at a crossroads in our understanding of the game. 'Defensive play' doesn't only happen in the defensive zone, IMO.

Preventing goals is a 'decent' descriptor of defense. The most effective way to prevent goals is to play in the offensive zone more than your zone. To do this, you probably have to be 'good defensively' or 'good in your end' (traditional and the definition you probably subscribe too.)

That's the thing. The poster you quoted saying defense 'isn't about playing defense, it's about controlling the game'. In order to control the game, you have to do thing in your own end that are regarded as 'playing good defense'.

an Girar i is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-14-2016, 07:35 PM
  #103
haohmaru
boomshakalaka
 
haohmaru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fleming Island, Fl
Country: United States
Posts: 8,099
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post

Girardi is the 2nd worst Ranger regular in ES goal differential since he's been a Ranger (Drury is 1st) so this isn't even true.
Where did you find this stat?

haohmaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2016, 12:09 PM
  #104
True Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 17,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 100Gs View Post
Agree to disagree. But if you think of it like this you can see why it might be regarded as 'defense'. A well timed/read pinch can obviously thwart a zone exit and thus a potential zone entry. I think you'd agree a defenseman skating with a good gap and denying an attacking forward the blue line, is good defense. So, if you think of it like that Pinch == Zone Exit thwarted == which equals zone entry thwarted, it can be concluded that Pinch == Thwarted Zone Entry and thus a 'defensive play'.
I understand your point. Like you said, agree to disagree.
Quote:
That's the thing. The poster you quoted saying defense 'isn't about playing defense, it's about controlling the game'. In order to control the game, you have to do thing in your own end that are regarded as 'playing good defense'.
One can say that about any position. Controlling the game-wise

True Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2016, 12:28 PM
  #105
Raspewtin
Free Kat Dennings
 
Raspewtin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Country: France
Posts: 30,917
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Where did you find this stat?
stats.hockeyanalysis.com

I also should clarify this is relative to his team, not a raw total.

__________________
"It's going to be a zoo no matter what, Staalmania, Staals everywhre, omg Staal on Staal action, three brothers hockeying! Staal returning to Carolina omg what news! All the feels he is feel..." - Ail on Eric Staal's return to Carolina.
Raspewtin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2016, 01:51 PM
  #106
Broadway Brad
Registered User
 
Broadway Brad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 260
vCash: 500
Quote:
Skjei rotating with Holden, with Clendening staying on right. Staal-Klein, McD-Girardi. 20-21-36, 40-13-10, 26-24-19, 12-46-73. #NYR
Cyrgalis on Twitter. This is just comical at this point. This team is never going anywhere with a coach this horrifically terrible at evaluating defense.

Broadway Brad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2016, 02:04 PM
  #107
TheTakedown
Puck is Life
 
TheTakedown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 9,694
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadway Brad View Post
Cyrgalis on Twitter. This is just comical at this point. This team is never going anywhere with a coach this horrifically terrible at evaluating defense.
this is sad. What has Klein done to earn a promotion? Why is Skjei still on the 3rd pairing? Why is Holden going to play INSTEAD OF Skjei? Most importantly why is Clendening still sitting and Girardi STILL On the top pairing after all of this?

TheTakedown is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2016, 02:07 PM
  #108
Crease
Registered User
 
Crease's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,893
vCash: 500
Has any reporter asked AV straight up why Girardi remains on the first pair despite obviously struggling in that role? At this point I don't care about the decision itself, I'm more interested in the mindset.

Crease is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2016, 02:15 PM
  #109
TheTakedown
Puck is Life
 
TheTakedown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 9,694
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Has any reporter asked AV straight up why Girardi remains on the first pair despite obviously struggling in that role? At this point I don't care about the decision itself, I'm more interested in the mindset.
I wonder the same. At this point McDonagh-Holden would be a decent top pairing.

Just ****ing scratch Girardi. I'm sick of the all-star treatment he getrs

TheTakedown is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2016, 03:51 PM
  #110
Overcast
Registered User
 
Overcast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 2,265
vCash: 1740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Has any reporter asked AV straight up why Girardi remains on the first pair despite obviously struggling in that role? At this point I don't care about the decision itself, I'm more interested in the mindset.
The question should be why AV has said, regarding two aging vets with declining play across two separate seasons, that he would rest said vets so they would be fresh later in the season and then proceeds to run them like horses.

Overcast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2016, 04:29 PM
  #111
Bleed Ranger Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 18,289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTakedown View Post
I wonder the same. At this point McDonagh-Holden would be a decent top pairing.

Just ****ing scratch Girardi. I'm sick of the all-star treatment he getrs
Right, because McDonagh-Holden was met with such fanfare when that was tried early in the season.

Bleed Ranger Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2016, 05:31 AM
  #112
Raspewtin
Free Kat Dennings
 
Raspewtin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Country: France
Posts: 30,917
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overcast View Post
The question should be why AV has said, regarding two aging vets with declining play across two separate seasons, that he would rest said vets so they would be fresh later in the season and then proceeds to run them like horses.
Because that's his comfort zone and he won't leave it.

AV going back on everything he preached for his team last year (playing McI more, giving Girardi and Boyle rest) when "playoff push" mode kicked in should tell you all you need to know. These early adjustments we see from the team are a mirage. When the playoffs inch closer they revert to the same ****.

Raspewtin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2016, 10:28 PM
  #113
DaBadGuy7
Registered User
 
DaBadGuy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Newark,NJ
Posts: 1,081
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to DaBadGuy7
As long as AV has Girardi paired with McDonaugh, Rangers have no chance of going deep in the playoffs. Gorton going to have to find a way to save AV from himself.

DaBadGuy7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2016, 07:47 AM
  #114
Mikos87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,149
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBadGuy7 View Post
As long as AV has Girardi paired with McDonaugh, Rangers have no chance of going deep in the playoffs. Gorton going to have to find a way to save AV from himself.
Disagree there. It keeps McDonagh from being maximally effective.

You can double shift that work horse in the playoffs, and let Girardi get PK and stationary starts or safe changes. They do the latter now, but aren't giving McDonagh 30 a night.

You'll see plenty of McDonagh-Skjei shifts when speed and transition is needed.

Rangers need one more defenseman like that, and another depth guy and they should be good.

That player may not be a RHD, but an underrated pick-up capable of top 4 minutes on the cheaper side. Like a healthy Simon Depres for Klein if the latter continues to slip.

Or a Dylan Demelo/Tim Heed. No names that can do an NHL job. Heed is a Rafaski or bust.

I really hope he makes it to UFA and the Rangers one-way him at $900k on July 1st.

Mikos87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2016, 09:35 AM
  #115
TheRightWay
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,637
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikos87 View Post
Disagree there. It keeps McDonagh from being maximally effective.
That's pretty euphemistic. The difference for McDonagh with and without Girardi is staggering and well established. McDonagh is about 56% in Corsi and 65% in Goals For % without Girardi this season compared to 44% and 45% with him. That's like the difference between a .300 hitter and a .230 hitter.


Quote:
You can double shift that work horse in the playoffs, and let Girardi get PK and stationary starts or safe changes. They do the latter now, but aren't giving McDonagh 30 a night.
You can do a lot of things. Why should we believe Vigneault will do any of them when he hasn't show a willingness to do so in the past? Vigneault won't even bother scratching Girardi for Clendening on a back-to-back in December on the basis that the standings are tight. It's very obvious that he plays Girardi because he thinks Girardi is good. Why would he not lean on Girardi in Game Five of a playoff series?


Quote:
You'll see plenty of McDonagh-Skjei shifts when speed and transition is needed.
Can you give an example of a time in which speed and transition are not needed?

Quote:
Rangers need one more defenseman like that, and another depth guy and they should be good.
The market for defensemen is absolutely insane and the Rangers don't have many assets to part with.

Quote:
That player may not be a RHD, but an underrated pick-up capable of top 4 minutes on the cheaper side. Like a healthy Simon Depres for Klein if the latter continues to slip.
Okay, so at least you're acknowledging that the Rangers pretty much need to cross their fingers and hope a team makes a bad trade in their favor. Even still. A Simon Depres is not making the difference. Keith Yandle, one of the elite puck movers of this generation, was not the difference last season.

Quote:
Or a Dylan Demelo/Tim Heed. No names that can do an NHL job. Heed is a Rafaski or bust.
You mean someone like, umm, Adam Clendening?


He's right. The difference between the top playoff teams is usually very small. Girardi being paired with McDonagh for 19+ every night is plenty more than enough to sink this team's ability to make a playoff run.

TheRightWay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2016, 09:40 AM
  #116
Ori
Registered User
 
Ori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Norway
Country: Norway
Posts: 3,305
vCash: 500
I hope Skjei is back on tuesday - I don`t understand AV decisions sometimes.

Ori is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2016, 10:15 AM
  #117
Mikos87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,149
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRightWay View Post
That's pretty euphemistic. The difference for McDonagh with and without Girardi is staggering and well established. McDonagh is about 56% in Corsi and 65% in Goals For % without Girardi this season compared to 44% and 45% with him. That's like the difference between a .300 hitter and a .230 hitter.




You can do a lot of things. Why should we believe Vigneault will do any of them when he hasn't show a willingness to do so in the past? Vigneault won't even bother scratching Girardi for Clendening on a back-to-back in December on the basis that the standings are tight. It's very obvious that he plays Girardi because he thinks Girardi is good. Why would he not lean on Girardi in Game Five of a playoff series?




Can you give an example of a time in which speed and transition are not needed?



The market for defensemen is absolutely insane and the Rangers don't have many assets to part with.



Okay, so at least you're acknowledging that the Rangers pretty much need to cross their fingers and hope a team makes a bad trade in their favor. Even still. A Simon Depres is not making the difference. Keith Yandle, one of the elite puck movers of this generation, was not the difference last season.



You mean someone like, umm, Adam Clendening?


He's right. The difference between the top playoff teams is usually very small. Girardi being paired with McDonagh for 19+ every night is plenty more than enough to sink this team's ability to make a playoff run.

The biggest difference is you've attached the notion of what you wish Clendo to be, with what the team is missing.

The premium isn't there to paid, you're totally spot on with that.

Girardi disminishes McD. Totally agree with you there.

I think it's a matter of measured desperation. Situational versus regular season looks. AV doesn't adapt as well as he should. That too is an accurate assertion.

You can spread the minutes out but at the end of the day you still need a very good skating defenseman that can eat 20 a night.

The team may have to overlook the lefty righty mix to facilitate that type of move.

I don't solely look at the stats and think a "mobile" player is going to change the team drastically.

Mikos87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2016, 11:33 PM
  #118
Ori
Registered User
 
Ori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Norway
Country: Norway
Posts: 3,305
vCash: 500
The PP unit looks weak and dull without Zib on it, and with 0 threat from our blueline.
And that is something to chew about before tomorrow night, AV when flyers is soon past us on the league table. And no playoffs is no doubts - bye, bye, and good luck, AV.
The excuses will be injuries for sure in his last interview, but all NHL teams have injuries - so it`s not good enough. The GM & President decided to go young core players policy earlier this summer and that`s fact.

The atrocious PK & PP stats recently are no coincidence at all.
Hopefully they will rebuild their defensive core soon as possible, and that include to move both Nash & Zucc to get younger core pieces.
I`m still uncertain if they will honor Henrik`s contract here, but I`ve feeling he will play in NY until he retires, and no doubts it will be hard to win a cup with 8.5 $ mil locked up into the goalie position.

Ori is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-27-2016, 01:08 AM
  #119
NYR2007
Registered User
 
NYR2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 664
vCash: 500
More and more i would love for this guy to be fired.

I hate how soft he is and how this team is turning into a country club

Who is available for his replacement

NYR2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-27-2016, 11:36 AM
  #120
Amazing Kreiderman
@StatBoy_Steven
 
Amazing Kreiderman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Netherlands
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 14,713
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR2007 View Post
More and more i would love for this guy to be fired.

I hate how soft he is and how this team is turning into a country club

Who is available for his replacement
Yes, please think of that before firing AV. I would only fire AV if there is a suitable replacement and to me, that is limited to Laviolette, Sutter, Babcock, and Quenneville

__________________
3 most memorable goals in New York Rangers history:
- Stephane Matteau in game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals in 1994
- Brad Richards in game 5 of the Eastern Conference Semi Finals in 2012
- Tanner Glass in game 84 of the Tanner Glass goalless streak in 2015
Amazing Kreiderman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-27-2016, 12:32 PM
  #121
Geoff Gorden
Staal's #1 Fan
 
Geoff Gorden's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 3,952
vCash: 500
I'd boot AV and hire Gallant in a heartbeat.

Geoff Gorden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-27-2016, 12:44 PM
  #122
eyjee
the basement
 
eyjee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Alphabetrium
Country: United States
Posts: 27,972
vCash: 500
Fire Gernander.
Hire Chad Wiseman as HFD HC to groom for NYR HC (3-4 years).
Fire AV.
Hire Ruff in meantime after Dallas decides to can him for no good reason.

eyjee is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-27-2016, 12:54 PM
  #123
Irishguy42
Registered User
 
Irishguy42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Bayside
Country: United States
Posts: 8,521
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyjee View Post
Fire Gernander.
Hire Chad Wiseman as HFD HC to groom for NYR HC (3-4 years).
Fire AV.
Hire Ruff in meantime after Dallas decides to can him for no good reason.
What if that's the plan with McCambridge and Kenny G is gone after this season?

One can dream.

Irishguy42 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-27-2016, 02:42 PM
  #124
Mac n Gs
Gorton plz
 
Mac n Gs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Country: United States
Posts: 10,167
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyjee View Post
Fire Gernander.
Hire Chad Wiseman as HFD HC to groom for NYR HC (3-4 years).
Fire AV.
Hire Ruff in meantime after Dallas decides to can him for no good reason.
Bringing in a former Wolf Pack star to replace an old Wolf Pack star eh?

Wiseman is doing great work with the Riveters. I like Sheldon Keefe coaching the Marlies too.

Mac n Gs is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-27-2016, 02:44 PM
  #125
eyjee
the basement
 
eyjee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Alphabetrium
Country: United States
Posts: 27,972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac n Gs View Post
Bringing in a former Wolf Pack star to replace an old Wolf Pack star eh?

Wiseman is doing great work with the Riveters. I like Sheldon Keefe coaching the Marlies too.
Total understatement. He's crushing. The off-season he had, completely rebuilt that team the way I'd want my NHL team to be built. Big d-men who can all play two-way hockey. Speed up front. Go go go go. They are such a fun team. I'd put Fratkin next to McDonagh tonight and never look back. She'd be a better option at 1RD than anyone we currently have in the organization. And that's not me using hyperbole. It's what I actually believe.

I like Keefe, too, but he doesn't really strike me as a "Rangers guy". It's all in his past, but he's got too much off-ice history. He'll get his shot somewhere, and I think he'll be a very good NHL coach, and I wouldn't hate it being with NYR at all.

eyjee is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:43 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.