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Old
12-06-2016, 08:11 PM
  #26
DKH
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Originally Posted by Alicat View Post
Feels good to be the top dog in free agency. Not too long ago the roles were reversed.
I hope the World Series doesn't schedule November games it can be cold in Boston in November

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12-06-2016, 08:24 PM
  #27
Mr Cartmenez
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Originally Posted by BostonBob View Post
Yankees GM Cashman compares the Red Sox to the GS Warriors.


from espn.com:

New York Yankees GM Brian Cashman turned to another sport to describe the enormity of the Boston Red Sox's acquisition of All-Star left-hander Chris Sale.

"Boston is the Golden State Warriors of baseball now," Cashman said Tuesday at baseball's winter meetings. "They've got their Durant and Green and Thompson and Curry."

Cashman spoke to New York reporters in a cramped hotel room, while 16 floors down at the Gaylord National Resort & Convention Center, Boston GM Dave Dombrowski had most of the rest of the baseball media listening to his reason for acquiring Sale for a four-prospect package headed by Yoan Moncada.

While Cashman spoke with the White Sox about Sale, he never made a serious run at the lefty, despite the Yankees' need for starting pitching. Cashman's reasoning is the Yankees are not in position to give up their top prospects at this point to add what he described as a finishing piece in Sale.

"It is not a deal that we should be doing at this moment in time, but we're going to get to the point where that is a deal that we will be in play on," Cashman said. "But it is a timing thing."


Full story: http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/1...d-sox-warriors
Spare it, Cash. There is no comparison to the Dubs, NBA and MLB is ways different in terms of parity. And even if there was such a team, it would be the Cubs.

And also funny is that we don't have to mention how wr got such a juggernaut: by not trading away the farm with the argument that most prospects flame out anyway. That is not the case with the right scouting team and development program.

My fear is that the Sox' huge run will not last very long. Farm has become thin and most of our players will be expensive in about 3-4 years. JBJ, Bogaerts, Betts, (Porcello), Pomeranz, Sale, Kimbrel, Thornburg...of course not everyone is irreplaceable or will be even attempted to re-sign, but that's alot of qualty.

Of course it feels good to have acquired an ace on a great contract, but I am with Theo on this. Sale will bring us closer to the WS-trophy on paper, but he wouldn't have made much of a difference last year for example and will not in the future if Porcello and Price can't perform up to their standards.

It's tempting to build a juggernaut and it seems Dombrowski always falls for that, but IMO it's smarter to go with "only" a good team, but better balance all around the system (for example farm, payroll flexibility)
Like I said, I dislike the Tigers' approach. He jumped ship right before the team was handcuffed with old players on huge contracts, no farm to speak of.

I guess it's DDo's mojo. Thinking BIG on short term. And the fact that he mostly makes reasonable trades, just like both deals today. That's why I was frustrated with the Kimbrel ad Pomeranz' trades.

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12-06-2016, 08:48 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Mr Cartmenez View Post
Spare it, Cash. There is no comparison to the Dubs, NBA and MLB is ways different in terms of parity. And even if there was such a team, it would be the Cubs.

And also funny is that we don't have to mention how wr got such a juggernaut: by not trading away the farm with the argument that most prospects flame out anyway. That is not the case with the right scouting team and development program.

My fear is that the Sox' huge run will not last very long. Farm has become thin and most of our players will be expensive in about 3-4 years. JBJ, Bogaerts, Betts, (Porcello), Pomeranz, Sale, Kimbrel, Thornburg...of course not everyone is irreplaceable or will be even attempted to re-sign, but that's alot of qualty.

Of course it feels good to have acquired an ace on a great contract, but I am with Theo on this. Sale will bring us closer to the WS-trophy on paper, but he wouldn't have made much of a difference last year for example and will not in the future if Porcello and Price can't perform up to their standards.

It's tempting to build a juggernaut and it seems Dombrowski always falls for that, but IMO it's smarter to go with "only" a good team, but better balance all around the system (for example farm, payroll flexibility)
Like I said, I dislike the Tigers' approach. He jumped ship right before the team was handcuffed with old players on huge contracts, no farm to speak of.

I guess it's DDo's mojo. Thinking BIG on short term. And the fact that he mostly makes reasonable trades, just like both deals today. That's why I was frustrated with the Kimbrel ad Pomeranz' trades.

I have no problem acknowledging that you're far more astute in this area than I.

And I agree with a lot of what you said above. One thing I'm not worried about however is the farm being too thin. I'm not disagreeing whether or not that comment is accurate. I'm just saying that it doesn't concern me for a few reasons.

First they're very young at 5 key positions....LF, CF, RF, SS and C. Plus their starters are in their prime.

Also, they have another few drafts to stock up on prospects before they really need to replace anyone significant. Maybe 1B or 2B in 2 years? (Travis at 1B?)

Lastly, down the road if one of the "B's" gets too expensive, they can be moved for prospects.

I love what he did today and I think barring injuries, this team is set up pretty well for the future, without needing to move anyone significant below the major league roster.

Maybe one of Wright, Buchholz, Pomerantz or even ERod will be moved for a decent prospect to help replenish the farm.

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12-06-2016, 09:05 PM
  #29
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way to go Cashman, blame other teams for your lack of moves

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12-06-2016, 09:21 PM
  #30
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The thing is, their farm system is now pretty loaded. So they can, in say 2018 or 2019, make similar moves as the Sox have for years. They chose to just buy, buy, buy my whole childhood and now they're paying for it with down years. The last couple years are really the first time I can remember the Yanks actively staying out of the FA market and trading away valuable assets in upcoming contract years to rebuild the farm.

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Old
12-06-2016, 10:05 PM
  #31
Mr Cartmenez
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Originally Posted by sarge88 View Post
I have no problem acknowledging that you're far more astute in this area than I.

And I agree with a lot of what you said above. One thing I'm not worried about however is the farm being too thin. I'm not disagreeing whether or not that comment is accurate. I'm just saying that it doesn't concern me for a few reasons.

First they're very young at 5 key positions....LF, CF, RF, SS and C. Plus their starters are in their prime.

Also, they have another few drafts to stock up on prospects before they really need to replace anyone significant. Maybe 1B or 2B in 2 years? (Travis at 1B?)

Lastly, down the road if one of the "B's" gets too expensive, they can be moved for prospects.

I love what he did today and I think barring injuries, this team is set up pretty well for the future, without needing to move anyone significant below the major league roster.

Maybe one of Wright, Buchholz, Pomerantz or even ERod will be moved for a decent prospect to help replenish the farm.
Well, it's true that they are set on most key positions. Most of them are young players, but as I said, those guys will have to be paid accordingly. 3 years is a long time and enough to re-build the farm to a certain degree. I hope I'm wrong, but it feels to me like Tigers 2.0.
The B's are definitely going to be too expensive for their liking, probably 2, maybe all of them. My prediction is that only Betts gets locked up long term. JBJ is a goner and I am torn on Bogaerts, but leaning towards gone.

Well, at least as it stands now they will only have 1 albatross contract in the distant future (Price), everyone else with huge money is on a moderate contract length. Sale, Sandoval, Porcello and Hanley.

What teams need to prevent is doing what the Yanks and Tigers did in the past X amount of years. That's why you don't hear much from New York. It's not like Steinbrenner is unable to find his wallted, they CANNOT spend like drunken sailors anymore. First of all there is a soft cap which makes it tough for any team to spend way past it (especially for a certain amount of years in a row) and second of all George's inherits are not as passioned about baseball as he was.
They will be back, no doubt. It would not surprise me of they get Chapman and it would not surprise me if they went all out in the next 1-2 FA-years for Harper and/or Machado (+ Otani if he's posted).

The Yanks years of mediocrity are the the consequences of spending just for the sake of it without getting "free" productivity out of their farm. They just survived longer than expected. But you gotta give them credit, they did a fine job re-stocking their farm, even though I am not entirely sold on their top prospects, but they finally have some depth.

Didn't want to write so much about the Bankees, but they are the perfect example that cash flow alone will not get you into contention. Not even the Dodgers of the recent past would be there if it wasn't for their young guns.

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12-06-2016, 10:25 PM
  #32
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Damn, I felt like we paid too much.

Yoan Moncada is the #1 prospect in all of MLB and Kopech is a top 30 prospect with a 105 mph fastball.

Still... Sale is an ace-quality top of the rotation pitcher locked up for under 15m per season for the next 3 years. We paid dearly, I hope it pays off with a championship!!

PS this was the price for Josh Beckett: Hanley Ramirez, Anibel Sanchez, Guillermo Mota, and Harvey Garcia. We also had to take a salary dump in Mike Lowell.

Fortunately for the Red Sox Lowell bounced back and became a key contributor and most importantly Beckett did lead us to a World Series championship in 2007.

So was getting Chris Sale worth giving up the #1 prospect in all of baseball plus additional add-ons??

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12-06-2016, 10:40 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vjcsmoke View Post
Damn, I felt like we paid too much.

Yoan Moncada is the #1 prospect in all of MLB and Kopech is a top 30 prospect with a 105 mph fastball.

Still... Sale is an ace-quality top of the rotation pitcher locked up for under 15m per season for the next 3 years. We paid dearly, I hope it pays off with a championship!!

PS this was the price for Josh Beckett: Hanley Ramirez, Anibel Sanchez, Guillermo Mota, and Harvey Garcia. We also had to take a salary dump in Mike Lowell.

Fortunately for the Red Sox Lowell bounced back and became a key contributor and most importantly Beckett did lead us to a World Series championship in 2007.

So was getting Chris Sale worth giving up the #1 prospect in all of baseball plus additional add-ons??
Yes.

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Old
12-06-2016, 11:17 PM
  #34
Mr Cartmenez
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Originally Posted by vjcsmoke View Post
Damn, I felt like we paid too much.

Yoan Moncada is the #1 prospect in all of MLB and Kopech is a top 30 prospect with a 105 mph fastball.

Still... Sale is an ace-quality top of the rotation pitcher locked up for under 15m per season for the next 3 years. We paid dearly, I hope it pays off with a championship!!

PS this was the price for Josh Beckett: Hanley Ramirez, Anibel Sanchez, Guillermo Mota, and Harvey Garcia. We also had to take a salary dump in Mike Lowell.

Fortunately for the Red Sox Lowell bounced back and became a key contributor and most importantly Beckett did lead us to a World Series championship in 2007.

So was getting Chris Sale worth giving up the #1 prospect in all of baseball plus additional add-ons??
When someone would have asked me yesterday what kind of package would be fair and get the job done, my proposal would have been: Moncada/Benintendi, Kopech/Groome and at least another significant part, maybe Swihart.

If it makes you feel better, basically no one hates the trade from a Red Sox perspective in terms of pure value. Giving up a top 10 prospect in baseball as the centerpiece was a given for any team and Moncada/Benintendi (#1) put us in the pole position. Nats likely offered Giolito/Robles, but I like this deal better for the WSox.
The most telling thing if a team overpays or not is if you read the other fanbase' opinion. Most WSox fans and people around baseball belief they didn't get enough. Everyone likes the 2 players, but I feel everyone expected another significant 3rd piece.

Hindsight may look different. If Sale breaks down and Moncada becomes someone in the mold of young Hanley, then it's obviously a loss, but not as of today. But my guess is most GMs shied away from Sale and his stressful delivery. It's a huge gamble by Dombrowski. It may pay off if we get around 15 WAR over those 3 years and playoff success.

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12-07-2016, 12:05 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by vjcsmoke View Post
Damn, I felt like we paid too much.

Yoan Moncada is the #1 prospect in all of MLB and Kopech is a top 30 prospect with a 105 mph fastball.

Still... Sale is an ace-quality top of the rotation pitcher locked up for under 15m per season for the next 3 years. We paid dearly, I hope it pays off with a championship!!

PS this was the price for Josh Beckett: Hanley Ramirez, Anibel Sanchez, Guillermo Mota, and Harvey Garcia. We also had to take a salary dump in Mike Lowell.

Fortunately for the Red Sox Lowell bounced back and became a key contributor and most importantly Beckett did lead us to a World Series championship in 2007.

So was getting Chris Sale worth giving up the #1 prospect in all of baseball plus additional add-ons??
If they get a championship out of it, yes. You're not getting a pitcher like Sale without feeling some pain. I like it...just wish they would have done it at the trade deadline this past season so they could give Ortiz a better shot at going out on top.

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Old
12-07-2016, 12:31 AM
  #36
Mr Cartmenez
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If they get a championship out of it, yes. You're not getting a pitcher like Sale without feeling some pain. I like it...just wish they would have done it at the trade deadline this past season so they could give Ortiz a better shot at going out on top.
In a parallel universe, the WSox agreed to the same package at the deadline which would have resulted in the Sox not making the Pomeranz trade or at least accepting the mulligan the MLB optioned them after the deadline passed. That means we still have one more top pitching prospect and less headaches with the rotation.

Sale
Price
Porcello
Rodriguez
Wright/Buch
Owens/Johnson

would also look quite great on paper. It's feasible that Rodriguez and/or Wright and/or Buchholz will be having better years than Pomeranz. Yes, I am somewhat down on the guy. Good to have in your rotation, but a #3 at best and not worth what was given up for him. His FIP and xFiP over the past 3 years (including the last breakout season) indicate that he's a high 3 ERA guy.

Unless Wrights arm has fallen off, I don't see where to put all those guys. Each one deserves to start, even headcase Clay.
Will they treat Wright as a spot starter once again? That would be mistake IMO. He's reliable and you know what you are going to get. He eats Innings and will put up decent stats. He would be my #5. Sale, Price and Porcello are locks anyway, unless Dombrowski pulls off another blockbuster in which he trades Porcello. I wouldn't even rule it out, he was the one who traded him 2 years ago to us.

Serious thought: What if he were to shop Porcello to either Nats or Braves. He would probably get a similar package as he jst gave up (say Giolito and Robles) while making the current team better (Sale > Rick).

Assuming no move like that occurs and the franchise is still very high on Pomeranz, then 4 spots are already crowded. So the 5 comes down to Rodriguez, Buchholz and Wright. Trading Buchholz would make sense, but his value is not that high. Neither is Rodriguez'. This guy is IMO only going to get better. Crafty leftes take a while to develop.
And can you see someone overpaying for a knuckleballer? Me neither, not after the Dickey fiasco. Although it would be delicious to see someone handing over the next Syndergaard. Too bad we just gave another version of him away (Kopech)...

No matter what, the Sox' off-season has suddenly become MUCH more inteersting than I thought anticipated. Didn't see any of this coming. Well, the reliever trade to a degree, though.

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Old
12-07-2016, 12:31 AM
  #37
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If they get a championship out of it, yes. You're not getting a pitcher like Sale without feeling some pain. I like it...just wish they would have done it at the trade deadline this past season so they could give Ortiz a better shot at going out on top.
I'd venture to guess the price for Sale at the TDL would've been significantly higher.

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Old
12-07-2016, 12:33 AM
  #38
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NYY cries


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12-07-2016, 12:36 AM
  #39
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Apparently the Nats were willing to offer a package of Giolito, Robles and Lopez. Moncada sealed the deal. Kopech and Robles are comparable...but they also offered a better secondary piece in Lopez IMO.
Let's see if the Nats are finding another target. Maybe Archer? Quintana (not sure they would offer the same for him)?


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12-07-2016, 06:47 AM
  #40
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NYY cries

once upon a time, in a galaxy far far away, the yankees were relevant and dominated pro sports.

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12-07-2016, 09:52 AM
  #41
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@JeffPassan 32m32 minutes ago
Edwin Encarnacion is in wait-and-see mode because of how his market cratered. At this point, no team even willing to go three years, $60M.


I'd do 3/60 in a heartbeat.

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12-07-2016, 10:40 AM
  #42
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@JeffPassan 32m32 minutes ago
Edwin Encarnacion is in wait-and-see mode because of how his market cratered. At this point, no team even willing to go three years, $60M.


I'd do 3/60 in a heartbeat.
Doesn't the Moreland signing make this unnecessary? Unless they would be able to trade Hanley, which I don't think would be easy, unless the return is very thin.

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12-07-2016, 10:41 AM
  #43
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@JeffPassan 32m32 minutes ago
Edwin Encarnacion is in wait-and-see mode because of how his market cratered. At this point, no team even willing to go three years, $60M.


I'd do 3/60 in a heartbeat.
Pretty sure they are over the luxury tax now with the Sale addition. They need to shed salary.

I'd do 3/60 in a heartbeat for Encarnacion, but unless they somehow find a way to shed about 30 million, they don't have room to sign him.

It's really too bad they have like 23 million in dead weight in Castillo and Craig buried in the minors.

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12-07-2016, 10:45 AM
  #44
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Doesn't the Moreland signing make this unnecessary? Unless they would be able to trade Hanley, which I don't think would be easy, unless the return is very thin.
In a perfect world they'd sign Encarnacion to DH and have Moreland play in 80-100 games. He's a perfectly average player. Great defensively, has some pop, but doesn't do much else with the bat. His H/R splits last season were pretty abyssmal away from Texas, though it wasn't much of an issue the prior two seasons.

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12-07-2016, 11:09 AM
  #45
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@JeffPassan 32m32 minutes ago
Edwin Encarnacion is in wait-and-see mode because of how his market cratered. At this point, no team even willing to go three years, $60M.


I'd do 3/60 in a heartbeat.
But they would be over cap and

Get hit with tax (another $15 M)
Loss of 2nd & 5th round draft picks
Loss approx 20% of allowance for international signings

Ouch

They said on MLB why he's in trouble getting what he wants

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12-07-2016, 11:16 AM
  #46
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Pablo Sandoval appears to have lost a lot of weight
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/...ght/ar-AAldFkm



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12-07-2016, 11:44 AM
  #47
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But they would be over cap and

Get hit with tax (another $15 M)
Loss of 2nd & 5th round draft picks
Loss approx 20% of allowance for international signings

Ouch

They said on MLB why he's in trouble getting what he wants
Not to mention they'd lose their 1st round pick too signing him.

Encarnacion is the perfect fit, but not at the cost of a 1st, 2nd, 5th, and loss of international signing money. That's crazy.

Unfortunately for Encarnacion, he's stuck in the perfect storm of old CBA draft pick nonsense, and new CBA luxury tax nonsense which is severely limiting his market.

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12-07-2016, 04:45 PM
  #48
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Pablo Sandoval appears to have lost a lot of weight
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/...ght/ar-AAldFkm


He looks good in that picture...unlike the 18% body fat farce the Sox tried to perpetuate on everyone last Spring training.

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12-07-2016, 05:40 PM
  #49
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Doesn't the Moreland signing make this unnecessary? Unless they would be able to trade Hanley, which I don't think would be easy, unless the return is very thin.
I wonder if Hanley could switch positions again this time to 3B? He was a SS at one time so 3B should not be a stretch for him. If the Sox can somehow get rid of Sandoval and/or Castillo even eating some of the salary they may have enough to fit EE into the payroll.

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12-07-2016, 07:29 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbfan419 View Post
I wonder if Hanley could switch positions again this time to 3B? He was a SS at one time so 3B should not be a stretch for him. If the Sox can somehow get rid of Sandoval and/or Castillo even eating some of the salary they may have enough to fit EE into the payroll.
EE is not coming here due to payroll and the dual/tri moves yesterday, including Moreland, the new CBA is playing a role in that.

Hanley likely is the in-house answer @ DH as been speculated once Ortiz announced his retirement

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