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Whats a fair contract for captain Koivu?

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01-28-2006, 03:14 PM
  #26
Guy Caballero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozeph_Balej
Also if you think we can spend the money on something better youre a tool , nobody wants to sing with us .

Last time we let someone go ( Brisebois ) we were all happy because we could sing someone better .. but the only one wanting to be with us was in fact a worse player ( Dandy )
Things were a little crazy last off-season, and a lot of D-men simply priced themselves out of our league. I mean, Hatcher and Rathje at 3.5 mil apiece? Gonchar at 5? Foote at 4.6? If we had flashed the same money, they would have signed with us too, but that would have crippled us. The only UFA defenseman that I would have given that kind of money to was Zubov. If the Habs had him this year instead of, say, Bonk and Sundstrom, we'd be a totally different team (but Bonk was brought on before anyone knew there would be a cap, so you can't blame Gainey for that). But then again, I'm sure Zubov passed up a lot of offers to remain in Dallas, not just any we might have made.

I think the theory that people do not want to sign with the Habs is a myth. In the late 90s/early 00s, it was simple economics: we couldn't even keep our own veterans let alone sign new ones. In the new cap era, Gainey made a conscious decision to go with youth. We all knew the D had gaping holes, but if they could stay healthy and play up to potential, they would be all right. Unfortunately, things didn't work out that way. Souray has been plagued with inconsistency, Dandenault's gone sour, Komisarek suffered from personal problems (and, worse, he seems to have plateaued at a very low level), the Streit experiment has been abyssmal, and Markov's been hurt. The only guys who have remained healthy and played up to expectations are Rivet and Bouillon. Add Theo's absolutely miserable play, and you have the recipe for our failures. I don't think you can pin all of that on Gainey. This has been the culmination of many individual failures, many of which were hard to predict.

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01-28-2006, 03:51 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Caballero
I think the theory that people do not want to sign with the Habs is a myth.
It's not, a lot of players have expressed it.

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01-28-2006, 03:56 PM
  #28
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So what would be your plan to remplace Saku Koivu , Guy ?

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01-28-2006, 04:02 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Kyle Chipchura
How's that smart?

No one can predict how good Saku will be once he is 39 or 40...
Doesn't even matter if he's playing at all. Gotta give him some incentive to sign here, and if it's a $3M cap hit, that's way below the hit he'll command on the open market. But nobody else is gonna give him 10 years either. So give him the red carpet to being a lifelong Hab, and do ourselves a financial favour in the process. And if we end up overpaying him a bit on the back end of that deal, hey, it's classy treatment for a guy who dedicated his life to wearing the bleu-blanc-rouge.

But really, there shouldn't even be any "negotiation" as such with a player of Koivu's status. You find out what he's looking for, and as long as it isn't totally off-the-wall-insane, you give it to him. The Habs would be a classlessly doltish operation if they did anything less. Sometimes I dare to dream that the organisation still has a bit of that class (or has it again, rather), and isn't as classless and cheap as its fan base. But I have my doubts on that score.

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01-28-2006, 04:05 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Malakhov
It's not, a lot of players have expressed it.
A lot of players would like to play in Montreal too...say...Ovechkin

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01-28-2006, 04:16 PM
  #31
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Trade him at the deadline while he still has some worth. Its always hard to part with a loyal guy but we need some assets. We should get something decent for him and lets face it we're not gonna win so what the heck. If we wait any longer he'll have very little trade value. Another thing is we'll never win with him as our "big" guy.

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01-28-2006, 04:26 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Medicine Twin
Having a top line centre for 65 games a year plus playoffs is much better than not having one at all. I know you guys think they grow on trees but...
the problem is that with Saku as our top line center there is no playoffs. How many times did we made the playoffs since Saku is our top center?

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01-28-2006, 04:39 PM
  #33
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3yr/2.75 per year Hometown discount. Those that want him dealt should smoke another one

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01-28-2006, 04:42 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil
the problem is that with Saku as our top line center there is no playoffs. How many times did we made the playoffs since Saku is our top center?
How many times did pitsburg miss the playoffs with mario at center
How man times did islanders miss the playoffs with yashin at center
How many times did the Blues miss the playoffs with Weight at center
How many times did Florida miss the playoffs with Jokinen at center
How many times did Boston miss the playoffs with Thornton at center

Now how man teams have won or almost won the cup with ok or good centers?

Not making the playoffs is nto saku's fault...
Montreal fans are always in the mentality that one player will carry the team...

sorry but saku hasent exactly had any decent talent around...last great talent he had was recchi (kovy is great but not consistent)

anyhoo that being said...

9.3 M$ over 3 years....and habs should go out and get something good to help him out

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01-28-2006, 04:46 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Caballero
I think the theory that people do not want to sign with the Habs is a myth. In the late 90s/early 00s, it was simple economics: we couldn't even keep our own veterans let alone sign new ones. In the new cap era, Gainey made a conscious decision to go with youth. We all knew the D had gaping holes, but if they could stay healthy and play up to potential, they would be all right. Unfortunately, things didn't work out that way. Souray has been plagued with inconsistency, Dandenault's gone sour, Komisarek suffered from personal problems (and, worse, he seems to have plateaued at a very low level), the Streit experiment has been abyssmal, and Markov's been hurt. The only guys who have remained healthy and played up to expectations are Rivet and Bouillon. Add Theo's absolutely miserable play, and you have the recipe for our failures. I don't think you can pin all of that on Gainey. This has been the culmination of many individual failures, many of which were hard to predict.
I don't believe it's a myth. Not only are our taxes a great disadvantage, I believe that this is the toughest place to play in the NHL. Point in case, Koivu. Koivu has played in Montreal for ten years where multiple GM's and coaches have paraded through. He has never had any stability nor a good team to surround him. For ten years he has been the team's best player. Somehow it's his fault that we have some of the worst coaches (Tremblay-Therrien) and the all time worst GM in Houle. The team has been floundering and the only real player we have had during that time is Koivu. Furthremore, he brings it every night. The fans are turning on Koivu because this city turns on everyone and because of the racist undertones this city constantly emotes. His biggest crime - doens't speak french. When you see the press make fun of every European name you realize that Montreal is not the most accepting society.

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Old
01-28-2006, 04:49 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingbobert
How many times did pitsburg miss the playoffs with mario at center
How man times did islanders miss the playoffs with yashin at center
How many times did the Blues miss the playoffs with Weight at center
How many times did Florida miss the playoffs with Jokinen at center
How many times did Boston miss the playoffs with Thornton at center

Now how man teams have won or almost won the cup with ok or good centers?

Not making the playoffs is nto saku's fault...
Montreal fans are always in the mentality that one player will carry the team...

sorry but saku hasent exactly had any decent talent around...last great talent he had was recchi (kovy is great but not consistent)

anyhoo that being said...

9.3 M$ over 3 years....and habs should go out and get something good to help him out
Finally a poster with some sense. Wow was I incredibly disapointed in most replies to this thread.

Guys, yes we're in a slump right now, and the whole team is playing poorly. But when we're on, Saku Koivu is a hard-working, does-everything, skilled forward, who - possibly aside from Kovalev - is the best forward we have.

I'm sure Saku could get $3.75 - $4.25 Million per year on the open market, easily. If a team with a low payroll like Minnesota or Nashville wanted him (and I guarantee there would be plenty of demand), it could be even higher.

Saku likes Montreal. Those who say he is overpaid right now have NO IDEA what they're talking about. I think his present contract is extremely fair, and am *hoping* that he'll re-sign for about that much.

Anywhere from $3M - $3.5M and I'm extremely happy. Anything below $3.85M, and Saku Koivu stays in Montreal. More than that, then *perhaps* consider other options.

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Old
01-28-2006, 04:50 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakuuuuu
Finally a poster with some sense. Wow was I incredibly disapointed in most replies to this thread.

Guys, yes we're in a slump right now, and the whole team is playing poorly. But when we're on, Saku Koivu is a hard-working, does-everything, skilled forward, who - possibly aside from Kovalev - is the best forward we have.

I'm sure Saku could get $3.75 - $4.25 Million per year on the open market, easily. If a team with a low payroll like Minnesota or Nashville wanted him (and I guarantee there would be plenty of demand), it could be even higher.

Saku likes Montreal. Those who say he is overpaid right now have NO IDEA what they're talking about. I think his present contract is extremely fair, and am *hoping* that he'll re-sign for about that much.

Anywhere from $3M - $3.5M and I'm extremely happy. Anything below $3.85M, and Saku Koivu stays in Montreal. More than that, then *perhaps* consider other options.
I agree. We won't get a better C under 4M anyway.

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Old
01-28-2006, 04:52 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Caballero
the Streit experiment has been abyssmal
that's one of the worst exaggerations i've seen on this board. He's been only improving ever since the time Julien benched him the entire game without having played a shift. As of late, he is like one of the very very few Habs that has looked like he is trying. What did you expect from him? a 60 point season? I mean he was fighting with Hainsey for a final spot. He's been playing decent lately end of story.

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01-28-2006, 05:02 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Live Forever
that's one of the worst exaggerations i've seen on this board. He's been only improving ever since the time Julien benched him the entire game without having played a shift. As of late, he is like one of the very very few Habs that has looked like he is trying. What did you expect from him? a 60 point season? I mean he was fighting with Hainsey for a final spot. He's been playing decent lately end of story.
I totally agree. Mark Streit has been fine. He's an older guy trying to re-adjust to North American hockey after playing overseas for a few years. I mean we couldn't be expecting a Zidlicky here, but Streit has shown some promise and is a solid bottom pairing defenseman.

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01-28-2006, 05:58 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Sakuuuuu
I totally agree. Mark Streit has been fine. He's an older guy trying to re-adjust to North American hockey after playing overseas for a few years. I mean we couldn't be expecting a Zidlicky here, but Streit has shown some promise and is a solid bottom pairing defenseman.
i agree . He was also only playing 7-8 minutes when Julien was coatching . It was not enough to adjuste his play , but now that he has more ice , he plays lot better than before.

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Old
01-29-2006, 08:09 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakuuuuu
I totally agree. Mark Streit has been fine. He's an older guy trying to re-adjust to North American hockey after playing overseas for a few years. I mean we couldn't be expecting a Zidlicky here, but Streit has shown some promise and is a solid bottom pairing defenseman.
Another vote for Streit here. I think he has adjusted well enough that it's fair to call him a legitimate NHL bottom-pairing defenseman right now, interchangeable with the bottom guys on most any team in the league. The question is whether he still has any more improvement in him or not. Is the adjustment over?

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01-29-2006, 03:28 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
But really, there shouldn't even be any "negotiation" as such with a player of Koivu's status. You find out what he's looking for, and as long as it isn't totally off-the-wall-insane, you give it to him. The Habs would be a classlessly doltish operation if they did anything less. Sometimes I dare to dream that the organisation still has a bit of that class (or has it again, rather), and isn't as classless and cheap as its fan base. But I have my doubts on that score.
Excellent post. I agree 100%.

No wonder players don't want to play in Montreal, after reading some of the other posts on this thread. Some of the posts around here make me think twice about being a fan sometimes. Heck, Saku only got 3 goals last night (he should have got credit for the Kovy goal), he's a bum that should be traded for nothing. Nice.

Say what you will about Leafs fans, but at least they support their team, and especially players that have played hard for them their whole career. Maybe they're overly loyal sometimes, but it's better than turning on them at the first sign of difficulty.

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Old
01-29-2006, 04:12 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by phil
the problem is that with Saku as our top line center there is no playoffs. How many times did we made the playoffs since Saku is our top center?
In the years that Koivu has been the top center he has had to play with generally inferior linemates and teammates from the time Recchi left. I doubt whether the Habs would have had more playoff success with other centers they might have signed. IMO the Habs need a massive upgrading at several positions, from goal on out. For example, bringing in Dandenault and Streit (or Traverse, if that's what on your mind) amounted to spackling cracks, not rebuilding a broken wall. And just think of Audette, Czerkawski, McKay, Petrov, Lindsay, Dowd, and an over-the-hill Gilmour. The Habs actually won a few playoff series with Koivu as captain (Boston twice, Pittsburgh). Remarkable!

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01-29-2006, 04:47 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
But really, there shouldn't even be any "negotiation" as such with a player of Koivu's status. You find out what he's looking for, and as long as it isn't totally off-the-wall-insane, you give it to him. The Habs would be a classlessly doltish operation if they did anything less. Sometimes I dare to dream that the organisation still has a bit of that class (or has it again, rather), and isn't as classless and cheap as its fan base. But I have my doubts on that score.
Fine, but where do you draw the line at unreasonable? It is still a business after all and with the salary cap in place every dollar counts in order to get the most from the budget.

If Koivu askes for $4 for 3 years he might not think that is unreasonable but the Habs management will. So just because they don't give him what he wants in that case they would be classless? No, a negotiation is necessary to meet at a price that both parties deem reasonable.

I can just say that if Koivu doesn't accept the Habs offer he will be classless. Doesn't work that way.

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01-29-2006, 04:50 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Guy Caballero
Things were a little crazy last off-season, and a lot of D-men simply priced themselves out of our league. I mean, Hatcher and Rathje at 3.5 mil apiece? Gonchar at 5? Foote at 4.6? If we had flashed the same money, they would have signed with us too, but that would have crippled us. The only UFA defenseman that I would have given that kind of money to was Zubov. If the Habs had him this year instead of, say, Bonk and Sundstrom, we'd be a totally different team (but Bonk was brought on before anyone knew there would be a cap, so you can't blame Gainey for that). But then again, I'm sure Zubov passed up a lot of offers to remain in Dallas, not just any we might have made.

I think the theory that people do not want to sign with the Habs is a myth. In the late 90s/early 00s, it was simple economics: we couldn't even keep our own veterans let alone sign new ones. In the new cap era, Gainey made a conscious decision to go with youth. We all knew the D had gaping holes, but if they could stay healthy and play up to potential, they would be all right. Unfortunately, things didn't work out that way. Souray has been plagued with inconsistency, Dandenault's gone sour, Komisarek suffered from personal problems (and, worse, he seems to have plateaued at a very low level), the Streit experiment has been abyssmal, and Markov's been hurt. The only guys who have remained healthy and played up to expectations are Rivet and Bouillon. Add Theo's absolutely miserable play, and you have the recipe for our failures. I don't think you can pin all of that on Gainey. This has been the culmination of many individual failures, many of which were hard to predict.

It's not a myth, just look at the players we have signed in the last couple of years, the only FA that we have signed were old players who wanted to play for the habs before retirering, when the money wasn't a factor ( I know there's Kovy but he resigned with the team and it was probably because he had no other good options ) but no player sign with the habs in their good years since they want to make money and we all know that taxes are way higher here then in most of the nhl cities so it makes a big difference, we just have to look at Martin Lapointe for exemple, when he was young, he went to Boston for money instead of the habs and now that his better days are behind him, he wanted to be an habs last summer because it's something that you want to do in your career.

The point is that we probably won't be able to get some good players as UFAs so we better stick with Koivu even if IMO he's a good second line center but not a first...

( P.S I always though that last summer we could have signed Kariya instead of Kovalev since Selanne wanted to play with Koivu and we all know that Kariya would probably have joinned Selanne's team and it would have almost cost the same thing as Kovy but that's probably just a dream...)

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01-29-2006, 05:33 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
In the years that Koivu has been the top center he has had to play with generally inferior linemates and teammates from the time Recchi left. I doubt whether the Habs would have had more playoff success with other centers they might have signed. IMO the Habs need a massive upgrading at several positions, from goal on out. For example, bringing in Dandenault and Streit (or Traverse, if that's what on your mind) amounted to spackling cracks, not rebuilding a broken wall. And just think of Audette, Czerkawski, McKay, Petrov, Lindsay, Dowd, and an over-the-hill Gilmour. The Habs actually won a few playoff series with Koivu as captain (Boston twice, Pittsburgh). Remarkable!
We did it 2 times in the late years , and one without Koivu , with Perreault as our first center . If Koivu was exellent when he came back in the playoffs , don't forget that he wasn't there for the entire season.

I agree that we didn't give him the team to go far , most of those years , but it's false to think that it was impossible , considering that Perreault did it .

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01-29-2006, 05:44 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by 24 Stanley Cups
Excellent post. I agree 100%.

No wonder players don't want to play in Montreal, after reading some of the other posts on this thread. Some of the posts around here make me think twice about being a fan sometimes. Heck, Saku only got 3 goals last night (he should have got credit for the Kovy goal), he's a bum that should be traded for nothing. Nice.
.
Brutal ! '' he should have got credit for the Kovy goal ! and why ?

for a passe that was a bit late and on his skate ...common !

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01-29-2006, 06:21 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Guy Caballero
I think the theory that people do not want to sign with the Habs is a myth.
It is definitely true that players don't want to play in montreal, even quebec nhlers.

Different language. No one wants to waste more time learning a language. Europeans just had to learn english. English Canadians usually hate Quebec.

High taxes. More so than any other place in North America.

Fans lynch you after one bad game. There the only place that boos on a regular basis.

French people are "considered" (not saying its true) less tolerant than others. They only like french players and no one else.

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01-29-2006, 06:47 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by phil
the problem is that with Saku as our top line center there is no playoffs. How many times did we made the playoffs since Saku is our top center?
So you think that making the layoffs depends on one man who plays a little over 20 minutes a game? Think about how silly this is. It's the shriek of a whining adolescent.

The Penguins will miss the playoffs with much bigger names than Koivu, including Crosby, Lemieux, Recchi, Leclair, Palffy, and Gonchar. The Caps will miss with Ovechkin. In the past the Rangers missed with Jagr, Messier, Lindros, Pavel Bure, Richter, Leetch, Holik, and Kovalev.

If there's any player who has the greatest influence on a team's standings, it's the goaltender. (Are you listening, Mr. Théodore?) However, even teams with great goaltenders can miss the playoffs if their teams stink. How can Koivu make up for the inadequacies of Théodore, a poor defense, and a lack of scoring and physical play from the forwards?

Now aren't you sorry you keyboarded that nonsense in, Phil? Or are you chronically chasing your own tail, trying to bite it?

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01-29-2006, 07:29 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
So you think that making the layoffs depends on one man who plays a little over 20 minutes a game? Think about how silly this is. It's the shriek of a whining adolescent.

Now aren't you sorry you keyboarded that nonsense in, Phil? Or are you chronically chasing your own tail, trying to bite it?
he Shut up Teufelsdreck ! If you think that your little sarcastic observations about the poster(s) are going to give you more credibility ...

Talking about being adolescent !

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